BS: What happened to common sense?

Subject: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:53 AM

I heard on BBC Radio 4 this moring that an elderly couple froze to death after Brittish Gas cut their gas off, when they did not pay their bill on time, they may have been entitled to help, but Brittish Gas said they could not inform Social Services that they had cut the gas off, as this would infringe the elderly couples privacy rights under the Data Protection Act!
Who thinks up these stupid bullshit rules???
[So it appears that Brittish Gas can cut old peoples gas off, let them freexe to death, and not bother to tell anyone, great system eh?

Also the Double Child Killer Ian Huntley had at least ELEVEN allegations of child rape, underage sex and fiddling with little girs, but he still ended up working in a school, the police could not pass on their concerns about him, because of the Data Protection Act.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:13 AM

PC rules jOhn.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:19 AM

Both these cases happened because of the operators' ignorance of the provisions of the Data Protection Act- and probably a lack of common sense in not questioning further.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: mooman
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:23 AM

In those particular tragic cases and some others it definitely became uncommon.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM

In Oz the privacy provisions don't count when someone has been convicted of chid abuse. These people are not allowed to live near schools etc, or work with children again. Everyone who works with children is subjected to police checks. This doesn't just mean paid work - volunteers in sport & other activities are checked too.

This right & proper care of young children can sometimes have sad consequences. I'm on the Committee for a Neighbourhood Centre & at a recent meeting the representative for the Ladies Seniors Group (a lady well past retirement age) asked the rep for the Play Group if her members could sit outside the fence & chat to any of kids who wanted to approach them. The young mother looked at the older lady in horror & said she would have to consult the other parents. So the Seniors rep withdrew her request.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:31 AM

I have commented on this before, same as Eric the Red above.

Common Sense left the building when Political Correctness walked in.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:54 AM

"Common sense" never existed. "Good sense" always has, but it has never, ever, been common. If it were, you won't remark on it. "Good sense" has always been rare and these days it's almost extinct.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:50 AM

And unfortunately, it doesn't migrate with the genes; it is actually a spiritual quality!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:00 AM

I would question whether the death of the couple could be put down to 'ignorance of the Data Protection Act'. The Act does allow information to be revealed in some circumstances (and Huntley's case is definitely one), but it also contains serious penalties for the individual who reveals information where it is not justified. That is, it is not just British Gas who breaches the act, but some hapless administrator, say Amanda Phistlethrop, their data protection officer. So poor old AP is forced to judge whether she should authorise release of information, knowing that she faces possible charges if the courts do not agree with her. It is not lack of common sense on her part not to release the information - it is self preservation. And she has no way at all of knowing the circumstances of the elderly couple: for all she knows their primary source of heating is electicity, not gas. Is it likely British Gas is going to instigate a full case study of all the pros and cons before every decision whether to cut off a gas supply?

The problem is, in my view, yet another law that has not been properly thought through, not the behaviour of British Gas.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:17 AM

And one wonders whether the indigent couple tried tor rectify the situation before freezing to death, say by phoning (or visiting) or calling on friends or neighbors for help?

A

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: MC Fat
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:36 AM

I woryy that we no longer take refuge in professional responsibility or trust and are so worried about being sued on some spurious grounds. I'd rather people held there hands up and took account of their actions instead of hiing behind an act which is not designed for the actions which British Gas took. The Act was designed to allow information held about you to be used only when necessesary and not be displayed or passed on.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:48 AM

People who are stupid enough to follow the rules when they should be broken are idiots. I have broken disclosure rules and policies on behalf of children--done so in the past and I will do so in the future. Rules that were put in place to protect children are meant to do just that. I have been 'questioned' about my decisions twice. Both times I explained then told my 'superiors' that given the circumstances, I would do the same thing again in future. Maybe common sense ain't all that common, but it is still recognized as a 'virtue' by many folks.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM

there is the local authority which banned hanging baskets for fear they might fall on someone. The point that in 40 years of hanging baskets in the area no one got hit by a falling basket has got nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:36 PM

In some parts of the US, it is against the law for gas and/or electric companies cut off services to people for non-payment during winter months. They have to wait until April, at least, to do it, for just this reason. Sounds like it might be a useful policy elsewhere, too.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM

Well, let's read this thread and John's thread about ID-cards together.

Most posters in the ID cards thread were against them with more or less good reasons, but a common theme was that the government (or the many governmental agencies) should not know everything about us.

If everybody in any governmental subinstitution would decide following his or her personal prejudices or whims to inform other governmental bodies about what his or her agency has done we would have a situation much worse than with ID cards.

From which age on do you think you would like to inform whoever you think should know about cutting the gas? 65? 70? Or in general?. If I for instance would not pay my gas or electricity bill for whatever reasons (could be a protest, for instance) I would not like to have Social Service at my door next morning. I actually would sue the person who has given them this information.

A doctor informs the police about your diagnosis with cancer? Well, why not, you could contemplate suicide, couldn't you?

Without a very specific reason (child protection e.g.) I see no need to give information about me to anyone who is in no need of this particular information.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

Pointing out that someone has made a politically correct statement in a way that is supposed to instantly show that the words said were obviously false, as I've said in many other threads, is simply a right wing way of trying to denigrate liberals. It doesn't ever negate the truth of the original statement----especially when the original point made was factual and actually correct.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Neither of these cases had anything to do with the "Data Protection Acts" - Noreen has it to a 'T' - More a case of "Cover your Arse" using the DPA as an excuse.

In the "Huntley" case the files were purged as an economy !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:50 PM

It is one of the drawbacks of 'freedom', I suppose. We are not watched as close as we 'should' be, perhaps. But then, where would 'freedom' reside, were this to be the case?

We need a Solomon, by the looks of things. He/She who controls the information.
And we need one in every State and Semi-State office in the country. A benevolent 'Big Brother', whose good judgement and discretion can always be relied on. And going by our high standards, there would also need to be a 100% success-rate.

But sometimes I just think that some people are in the wrong jobs. Or rather, they do not possess the necessary skills (social and professional) for the jobs they do have.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:00 PM

totally agree with JIm, these were vulnerable people [elderley and children], these 4 deaths could have been prevented, if the people in charge showed a bit of common sense instead of sticking to the rules,
i often think the country is been run by a bunch of idiots.

Wolfgang-I take your point about privacy, and agree that we should not stick our nose into your private business, [how much you earn, where you go, who you talk to etc], but surely if you were an old person freezing to death, you would appreciate some help, and not say "my money situation is a secret, mind your business"?

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:08 PM

Common sense??? No such thing. Cultural sense? Yes. Every culture has its guidelines but this is not something all human beings hold "in common". Personal responsibility is another matter. Not much of that in N. America. Thats why lawyers make such good money.

Just an observation - Some of the most highly educated people I know have very little "common sense" while many who have little education seem to do just fine with a big whollop of "common sense".

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:26 PM

Anyway= what happened to looking out for your neighbours?
[i don;t know the full details of the old couple that froze to death, not even sure wheere it was, i heard it on the radio],
I guess these people had neighbours?
anyway, this is not the first case like this, we often here about old folks dying, and their bodies only been found after a neighbour complains about the smell next door,
people don't seem to give a shit about each other anymore,
we often hear of kids been beat up and killed, neighbours must of heard screaming etc, but they just turn the tv up and ignore it.

I grew up in a village near Hull {Cottingham], and everybody looked out for each other ie my grandad was a gardener and grew veg and stuff [we had a really big garden,land etc], and he would give veg to people in the village, and there was a joiner dowm the street, any problems ie gate busted, he would fix it as a favour, just to help people.

i think nowadays people think about thereselves too much, probably too busy watching TV, telly is rubbish, people sit on their arse all day watching telly, they got no idea whats going on,
100 years ago 1 house in 10 had a piano in the house, now it is less than 1 in a hundred.

Is modern life rubbish?

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

THE World is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon.
The winds that will be howling at all hours
And are up-gather'd now like sleeping flowers,
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not.—Great God! I'd rather be
A pagan suckled in a creed outworn,
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathèd horn.

How William Wordsworth put it, oh... in about 1807, or something.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:45 PM

My favorite poet. Ah yes, the industrial revolution. If he could only see us now.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:08 AM

Who knows? He might be wandering somewhere up there as a cloud

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:57 AM

John, if someone notices I'm about to freeze to death I'd be glad for any help. So if there is a specific sign of danger I'd appreciate rule breakers. However, death by freezing was an extremely unlikely outcome, one of many possibles. The couple could have moved in with relations, could have gone for winter to a warmer place, could have gone to Social Service themselves and many other possibilities.

I still do not see from the information I have anyone should have acted just upon a mere low-probability possibility. Should Social Serve be informed in any case of someone not paying the bill? Age, BTW, is not an information the German gas providing bodies have of their clients because we only give them the information they really need. And they do have to know my age for that service.

We discuss here with hindsight that is we know the outcome in that particular case. The quality of the decision has to be looked at from what was known at the time of the decision.

an elderly couple froze to death after Brittish Gas cut their gas off 'after' is read by most posters here as 'because of' which may be completely wrong. Many different other causes can have led to the death. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc could be right here, but let us not disregard it could as well be wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:14 PM

Oh, please.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:07 PM

Wolfgang, you are of course correct.
It serves this old couple right for freezing to death, they should have checked into a warm hotel, they were probably neen greedy, and its totally their own fault.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:46 PM

Some utility companies are better citizens than others. It is the policy of our provincial public electricity corporation not to disconnect service for failure to pay during the winter months, for that very reason.

However if you heat with gas you are out of luck, the private corporate monopoly that supplies natural gas, regularly disconnects customers for non payment during the winter.

Wolfgang, it would seem that very little experience with the impoverished, befuddled elderly.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM

That should read "that you have very little experience"

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to common sense?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:03 PM

I work for a public utility.   I was in a meeting today where the head of Credit and Collection stated that arrears (people not paying) was over $300,000,000.    A staggering amount.   What was more amazing to me was that according to his statistics- 60% of these people could afford to pay their bill.   Only 40% of those were low income who could not pay their bill.

I have sympathy for low income people and work with a lot of them to get them to programs like The Heat and Warmth Fund, Family Independence Agency, Home Heating Credit, and other agencies.    A lot of them do not take advantage of what is out there and feel that Gas and Electricity is an entitlement and they should not be required to pay for it. They are incorrect.

For the people who can afford to pay and don't I have no sympathy.   I pay my bills.   They should pay theirs.   Shutting people off is only the last resort.   We make no money if the meter is shut off and it creates bad publicity.    A story ran in our papers about us shutting off a family that owed us $2,000.    They failed to mention that the family had not paid anything or made any arrangements for 2 whole years, and they had been caught and convicted of stealing energy the year before that.

The results of this are that everyone else (you and I) have to pay higher rates to make up for the people who are not paying their share.