Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?

Subject: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori tune?
From: GUEST,John Archer - New Zealand
Date: 09 May 04 - 07:32 PM

I want to find out if the Irish hymn "A Mhuire Mháthair" uses the tune of the New Zealand Maori song Pokarekare Ana.

I run a website of historical New Zealand songs.

The most popular songpage on it, with worldwide visitors, is Pokarekare Ana, a Maori love song dating from World War One, and nowdays almost a second NZ national anthem.

This webpage has the song's lyrics, tune variants and history.
NZ Folksong - Pokarekare Ana

I have received an e-mail from Ireland reporting that the tune of Pokarekare Ana is used in "A Mhuire Mháthair," a hymn sung at Irish weddings.

1. Can anyone confirm this?
2. If so, is it in 3/4 or 4/4 time or in another timing?
3. Can anyone e-mail me an MP3 or score or ABC notation of the exact tune used for A Mhuire Mháthair?
4. Is there any history of A Mhuire Mháthair being sung to the Pokarekare Ana tune before WW1?
5. If not, when was it composed?
6. Is the Pokarekare Ana tune used for any other Celtic songs?

A Mhuire Mháthair,
Sé seo mo ghuí,
Go maire Íosa,
Go deo i'm chroí.

Ave Maria
Mo Ghrá Ave,
Is tusa mo Mháthair,
Is Máthair Dé.

Thanks
John Archer
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin
From:
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:04 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:04 PM

I remember Pokarekare Ana in 3/4 time John. I once had an argument with a music teacher who tried to tell our overseas guests that it never was! He was just a youngster.
Robyn (in Hawke's Bay)

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin
From:
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:02 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:44 AM

I have a beautifully illustrated book bought in New Zealand by my mother in 1950. "Pokare Kare" (as it is titled in this book) is given here in 3/4 time.
There is no publication date but this song is credited to H. Piripata with a copyright date given as 1926.
My mother who was born (in 1914)and raised in New Zealand always sang it in 4/4 time however. Joy

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Cath McGinley
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM

Hi, I live in a Gaeltacht area in Ireland (irish speaking) area, but was born in New Zealand. The hymm 'A Mhuire Mháthair' is sung at the chapel here in Glencolmcille and is as far as I can remember from hearing it in NZ the same (give or take a few 'irishisms'). I wouldn't be too good on knowing the differences in the timing but there doesn't appear to be much difference (my daughter says the same and she has a better ear than me - also speaks Irish so that helps a little with the difference).

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:42 PM

A friend in Hawai'i used to sing "Pokare kare" (he once lived in N. Z.). There is a midi here that is close to what he sang:
Pokare kare

It sounds like a hymn. Is it the tune brought up here?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:35 AM

That's the one!
Many early Maori songs were set to hymns or tunes of songs popular at the time (early 1900s to about 1990)(when Kapa Haka started replacing them).
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:52 PM

i love it

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:42 PM

Yes, it is sung all over Ireland, not necessarily at weddings but at various Church ceremionies and in my son's school (Dublin).

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:45 PM

http://www.muintirmhuire.ie/mp3_music.php


I would have heard it sung 'faster' but I am not musical.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mh?air' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 07:09 PM

Any progress on identifying which use of the tune came first? The NZ one, the Irish one, or something else they both borrowed from?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:52 AM

Hey Guest 2:45pm, that's very lovely.
And it is the Pokarekare tune!
OK, so is that a modern hymn or does it predate 1914 or 1917 or 1926?
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Raeburn Lange
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:28 PM

Five or six years ago we attended an Easter Sunday service in the Catholic church in Ballinskelligs, Ireland. Two things amazed us: (1) a funeral was held in conjunction with the Easter service; (2) after the service a group of old men played the tune of 'Po Karekare Ana' on fiddles and harmonicas as the people went out of the church.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,aoife
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:47 PM

A mhuire Mhathair was written in the 1700's during the irish struggles against the english and called for Mary's assistance in everyday life. The tune is typically sang slowly.

As Pokarekare was written in the 1900's it uses the irish tune as a basis, I believe a lot of Maori songs written around the time use european folk songs as their tune.

http://folksong.org.nz/pokarekare/index.html has an overview of the origins of the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mh?air' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 08:49 PM

Do you have any source for that? When was the Irish tune first written down, and how do you know what tune was used for the Irish song in the 18th century?

Come to think of it, *what* struggles against the English, and how did a hymn to Mary relate to them?

To complete the story we also need to know what the Maori songwriter used as a source for the tune. A hymn seems much more likely than a folk song, and if the source was a hymn it should have been in print.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 10:32 PM

I used to work with the songwriter's nephew (not to be taken too literally, any older female relative can be 'aunty' in the vernacular) and he thought that she wrote the tune as well. She was a noted musician.
Hearsay evidence.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 04:52 PM

this song was sung at my grandfathers funeral beautiful hymn .

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Eoin
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 03:22 PM

Yes you are absolutely right my cousin was the one that brought it to ireland and her cousin translated/composed it In the gaeltacht in an rinn in waterford Mona Breathnach Brought it from New Zeland and Tomás breathnach composed/translated it

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,kiss my ass
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 03:01 PM

a mhuire a mhathair

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From:
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 10:53 PM

That previous link is no longer Here's a link to a new page with 2 MIDI's. I'll try to convert to abc to enter here

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From:
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 11:08 PM

Here are the results from ABC Explorer

X:1
T: POKAREKARE.MID
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
Q:1/4=60
% Last note suggests Phrygian mode tune
K:F % 1 flats
%%MIDI program 44
x2 x/2C>AA/2G/2G/2 F2| \
G/2A2-A/2A C>F F/2E/2E/2D/2-| \
D2 G2- G/2G>DD/2G/2G/2| \
F/2F/2x/2E3/2-[F/2E/2]G2>G2C/2-|
C/2 (3DDEE/2F C,>D, D,/2E,/2E,/2F,/2-| \
F,/2x/2F Gx/2ABF,>B,F,/2-| \
F,/2B,F,/2A,F G/2AG/2-|
G2 G2- G/2G>EE/2D| \
Cx/2FF,/2F, X:2
T: POKARE_KARE_1926.MID
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
Q:1/4=60
K:F % 1 flats
%%MIDI program 48
C>A (3AGG F2>A2| \
C>F FG2| \
(3DDG (3GFF E2>G2| \
C>D (3DEE F4|
(3F2G2A2 B4| \
(3D2F2B2 A4| \
(3F2G2A2 G2 GE/2E

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 11:17 AM

Thanks for the abc, george, but when I converted it to standard notation, it was pretty daunting. All those dots!

I found a page that offers the modern 4/4 version and a 3/4 version from 1926. (The links are at the bottom of the page.) So much for all the debate on what time the song is in; we can swing either way. Here's the link:

pokarekare page

As for origin, it suggests that it may be a Dalmatian fiddler's tune. I like it!

This is a beautiful melody. Thanks to all who brought it up.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 12:09 PM

Heck. The MIDI's from the page just linked are useless, a welter of 64th notes and crazy ties. Back to the keyboard.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From:
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 11:46 AM

Here's the abc for that Waltz one that Leeneia posted the link to:

X:3
T: POKAREWALTZ.MID
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
Q:1/4=60
K:F % 1 flats
%%MIDI program 48
x3/2C3/2A [A/2G/2-]G/2G/2F2-F/2| \
(3A2C2F2 [F/2E/2-]E/2E/2D2-D/2| \
G3/2DD/2G/2>G/2 FF/2E2-E/2| \
G3/2C-[D/2-C/2]D/2D/2 EE/2F2-F/2-|
F3/2F-[G/2-F/2]G A3/2B2-B/2-| \
B3/2D-[F/2-D/2]F B3/2A2-A/2-| \
A3/2F-[F/2-F/2]F/2G/2 A2G3/2E/2>E/2D3/2 C3/2F2-F/2-|
F3/2

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mháthair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 01:22 PM

The MIDI's on the NZ site were made by somebody recording the piece rather than carefully entering it, and they have crazy note lengths and goofy ties, the result of the computer taking literally every subtle change in pressure of the musician's fingers. The ABC's made from them are the same.

So I have copied the written music on that page into a MIDI at home, so people can both hear the piece and download it for playing on instruments at home. It is a beautiful piece.

The very low notes in the piece are not part of the melody. They are bass runs, perhaps by a ukelele. If you listen to Kiri Te Kanawa sing it, (there's a link) that becomes clear.

I have no doubt that it is an authentic piece of NZ music. It doesn't actually have a time signature - the notes match the words. It's a non-western approach to melody, and it's beautiful.

I will send my MIDI to Joe. Watch this site.

I think it would be a lovely way to end a concert and bid farewell to the audience.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mh�thair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 04:04 PM

The low notes are not instrumental. They're a Polynesian technique of punctuating a tune with percussive almost grunt-like drops to a lower octave, either by the lead singer or the others. It isn't always done and I can't find an example on YouTube, but I've heard it done the way folksong.org.nz's score has it.

Apart from that, it's a pretty normal Western hymn tune with nothing very traditionally Maori about it.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 10:23 PM

Here's a MIDI from leeneia for "pokarekare":

Click to play (joeweb)

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From:
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 10:50 PM

Here's the abc for the MIDI she supplied taken form Joe's Link X:5
T:POKAREKARE.MID
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
Q:1/4=120
K:F % 1 flats
% Pokarekare Ana
% By trad. Maori (early 20th C.)
% Generated by NoteWorthy Composer
V:1
% Staff-1
%%MIDI program 74
x6
% Pokarekare Ana
% By trad. Maori (early 20th C.)
% Generated by NoteWorthy Composer
C3/2x/2| \
AA GG2A4- A3/2x/2 C3/2x/2| \
F3/2x/2 EE D3-D/2x/2|
G4- G3/2x/2 DD| \
M: 2/4
L: 1/8
GG FF| \
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
E2- E/2x/2F G4-| \
G3/2x/2 C3/2x/2 DD EE|
F6- F3/2x/2| \
x2 F3/2x/2 G3/2x/2 A3/2x/2| \
[B3/2-B,3/2]B/2- [B-B,][B3/2-F,3/2]B/2-[B2-B,2-][B/2B,/2]x/2| \
D3/2x/2 F3/2x/2 B3/2x/2 [A3/2-A,3/2]A/2-|
[A3/2-F,3/2]A/2- [A-A,][A3/2-F,3/2]A/2-[A2-A,2-][A/2A,/2]x/2| \
F3/2x/2 FG A3/2x/2 G2-| \
G3/2x/2 G4- G3/2x/2| \
EE D3/2x/2 C3/2x/2 [F3/2-F,3/2]F/2-|
[F-F,][F-F,] [F3/2-B,3/2]F/2- [F3/2B,3/2]x/2 F,2-|F,3-F,/2

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 02:12 PM

I've been playing it on the piano, and I still can't really get it to work. That dotted half-note C near the start - it just doesn't want to be that long.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Sharon
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 03:42 PM

i STUDIES iRISH TRADITIONAL MUSIC IN COLLEGE AND HAVE GONE BACK TO OLD COLLEGE BOOKS IN RELATION TO FUSIONS OF MUSIC. IT STATES THAT THE SONG ORIGINATES IN iRELAND FROM PRE FAMIN AMD THAT IT CAME TO AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEAND FROM THE IRISH WHO EMIGRATED THERE AND BROUGHT MANY CUSTOMS WHICH THEN IN TIME INTERGRATED WITH THE MAORI TRADITIONS. SOUNDS REASONABLE ! !!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,sharon again
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 04:02 PM

sharon back i have listened to recordingd ot the maori way of playing and the was I learnt as an irish tradition. Seems to be a lot more doubling of note with N Z than IRL. I play if in 4/4 time with the first 3 note on the up beat. Its all in crotchet counting here. Hope you can follow it . Remember !st three note upbeat after that will put in numbers for lenght of beats. Have also put in the harmony below it. As i play it.

Verse
D B A | G2 B3   D G F* E5
A A G F*2   A3   D E F* G5
Chorus
G A B C2 C3   E G C B5
GG A B A2 A3   D E F* G5    (*=SHARP)

Harmony

D D' C | B2 D'3   B B D' C5
   C C C D'2 D'3   D'C D' B5
   B C D' C2 C3   C C C B2 G2 B
   B BCD' C2 C3   D' C D'
   B2 D' C B                         ('=HIGH NOTE)

Hope you can follow this. Ps not always played at weddingd , I have never heard it played at a wedding but have heard it played as an instrumental for the offeratior at any mass service. Best of luck. Sharon

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 05:27 PM

Sharon, 99% of what you find in books is bollocks. Irish ones included.

If you can't find any definite trace of that tune in Ireland from before 1900, no it does not sound reasonable. It sounds exactly like a lot of other speculative bluff about bogus origins of Irish tunes.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Eddy
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 11:00 AM

If it is true that "A mhuire Mhathair was written in the 1700s during the Irish struggles against the English", then at some point in the two hundred years between the 1700s and when the melody was documented in New Zealand, someone in Ireland will have committed it to paper.

Furthermore, as the melody appears now to be known quite widely in Ireland, it follows that at some point between the 1700s and the early 1900s, the melody would have appeared in volumes of printed music.

So those people claiming that the melody originated in Ireland have to produce the historical written or printed music that will substantiate the claim.

Otherwise the claim cannot stand.

(There is another Maori melody that became popular in the British Isles with new words, in English: the farewell song "Now Is The Hour".)

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM

Don't remember seeing this thread... Any live links to the tune?

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 11:29 AM

OK - found some. Familiar tune, alright. Can't imagine it having Irish roots. The NZ folklore page, to which GUESTleenia links, dates the Irish language "A Mhuire..." version to around 1970 - which sounds about right to me (heyday of the "folk mass" movement). I suspect a light bulb illuminated somewhere between "Maori" and "Muire"!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:04 AM

This is interesting about the originals of this song.
Does anyone happen to know who composed the Irish version and the approximate year, that it would have been written?

regards,

Dan

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM

After the vote in the NZ Parliament legalising Equal Marriage, the song in question (Pokarekare Ana) rings out.

The singing starts about 1:30 into the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilMBLV3A6ug

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Tom Keegan
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 06:17 PM

I can't confirm this but I'll tell you this anyway, I've been told my Uncle Br. Frank Keegan, he died about 1992, composed the Irish version, he taught Irish in Drimnagh Castle School Dublin.
If he didn't compose it he certainly was capable of doing so, I will make enquiries about it.
le meas
Tom Keegan
Westmeath.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 06:22 PM

Thanks Tom - I knew Drimnagh Castle well! Let us know if you can confirm the attribution, please.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 06:31 PM

The NZ Folksong page on "Pokarekare Ana" reports a suggestion that the tune might have been of Croatian origin. It certainly sounds a lot like a Dalmatian "klapa" choral song, and the north end of the North Island was settled by migrants from Dalmatia in the generation before the Maori song was composed, so transmission is historically plausible.

But I've asked my Croatian contacts if they recognize it and got nowhere. Anybody know folks in a klapa group to ask?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: GUEST,Murph
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 12:18 AM

My grandad’s grandad wrote it in O’Connors in Salthill after a heap of Guinness one night. That was pre-1900s Ireland, but after famine time if I remember. Plenty of spuds to go around.

In all homesty though, I’d love to know the origins, if anyone has found them.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 07:05 PM

This Wiki article
Pokarekare Ana claims that 'Pokarekare Ana is a traditional New Zealand love song, probably communally composed about the time World War I began in 1914. The song is written in Maori and has been translated into English.

'East Coast Maori songwriter Paraire Tomoana, who polished up the song in 1917 and published the words in 1921, wrote that "it emanated from the North of Auckland" and was popularised by Maori soldiers who were training near Auckland before embarking for the war in Europe.[1]

'There have been numerous claims and counterclaims regarding authorship over the years. Although the matter has never been definitively settled, guardianship of the words and music is held by the family (descendants) of Paraire Tomoana.'

And that: 'The melody of "Pokarekare Ana" was used for an Irish hymn to the Blessed Virgin: "A Mhuire Mháthair, sé seo mo ghuí".'

Just throwing that into the discussion. The wiki article itself doesn't really supply any evidence for when and where the tune was originally composed but the article referred to in this footnote might shed some factual light, if someone can access it: 1. Allan Thomas. ""Pokarekare": An Overlooked New Zealand Folksong? . Journal of Folklore Research. Indiana University Press (Vol. 44, No. 2/3 (May – December, 2007)): 227–237. JSTOR 40206952.

Is it possible that the lyrics of A Mhuire Mháthair were written in the 1700's - as claimed above - but that the words were then fitted to the melody of "Pokarekare Ana" in the 1900's?

I know nothing!! But this thread raises some interesting questions.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 03:15 AM

I haven't read that Wiki article but everything you quote from it was already in the NZ Folksong page ten years ago.

There seems to be no record of the Irish before the 20th century. A widely sung hymn of popular origin should have left some trace if it was much older.

I want to see that Croatian link resolved. The sound of a Dalmatian klapa is so much like that of a Maori concert party choir it would make a lot of sense for songs to be exchanged between them. (Do those Maori choirs still exist?)

Subject: RE: Origins: 'A Mhuire Mhathair' - NZ Maori origin?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:20 PM

the best version IMNSHO is sung by Inia Te Wiata.