Tech: numb guitar strings

Subject: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:13 PM

I have a friend who has a fairly new Martin D28 guitar, and the "G" and the "D" strings are dull, even though they are new. The strings were changed and still those two strings are "numb".
Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:27 PM

The list of problems may include one or more of the following: poor contact between the nut and the neck, overly tight nut slot which prevents the string from sitting in the bottom of the slot, poor contact between the saddle and the bridge, string ball end not up against the bridge plate, machine head loose (but being held tight by string pressure), poor neck to body joint (not likely on a new instrument I wouldn't think), under saddle pickup improperly installed, and maybe other things I can't imagine at this moment.

I once had a similar problem with the low E string on a Strat. It was a combination of several things conspiring to suck the tone right out of an otherwise resonant guitar.

Get thee to a luthier, don't spare the horses.

Peace and good luck, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:28 PM

INspect the grooves in the nut and above the saddle. Only thing I can think of.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:08 AM

Another possible is the breakover angle. If my memory serves, Martin (correctly) groove the bridge plate from the pinholes towards the saddle to get the same breakover angle for all strings. If the grooves are not accurate, there will be different string pressures on the saddle...

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:04 AM

A good luthier has tried and failed.

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: mooman
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:15 AM

Dear Kendall,

First of all, could you let me know the gauges and make of the strings? It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that your friend got two dud sets (in fact it happens more often than you might imagine!).

There are some possible causes as mentioned above but, when I'm given a setup problem like this to solve I usually work through from the mundane to the exotic.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM

Were these strings working correctly when the guitar was purchased ?
If NOT , WHY not ? What does the vendor say about the problem ? In UK any problems like this ought to go to the vendor in the first instance . Ref Sale of Goods Act . Failing that , I would go along with mooman's post .

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:39 AM

Friend dropped in yesterday. This guitar is less than two years old. When he got it, it was loud and clear, but a bitch to play. You could shove a cat under the strings at the 12th fret. He got tired of bleeding fingers, took it to the shop where he bought it, they lowered the action, gave him a BS story about summer and winter bridges, an humidifier; then they told him to wait for 6 months before having it set up. Hell, he couldn't play it! They got the action too low and it buzzed, so, They put a plastic shim under the bridge bone which resulted in some strings being ok and others buzzing.
He called the Martin factory and was told to take it to an authorized Martin repair shop (which he had already done) and that Martin no longer repairs their guitars. Apparently, their lifetime guarantee is bogus.
I looked it over with less than a professionals eye, and all I saw was not enough clearance between the strings and the 12th fret. A nickle won't fit without hanging up.
The neck is not warpped, it is as straight as an arrow, the bridge is not moving, the nut is secure, the heel is firmly attached to the body, etc. It seemed to me that the nut was deeply grooved and the light guage strings were in the very bottom of the grooves. That led me to put a capo on, but even with the capo it buzzed badly.
I sent him to another luthier. Lookes to me like a slightly higher bridge bone will do the trick, provided someone takes the time to do the labor intensive adjusting.
I think he got taken, paying $3500.00 for a brand new HD 28 that he wants to "wrap around a stump".
I had a hard time getting my $800.00 second hand Taylor away from him.

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: GUEST,augie
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:07 PM

It's true, Martin no longer does repairs at their PA. factory, but I've had no problems with them honoring their lifetime original owner guarantee through authorized repair shops. I got two of mine back from an authorized repairman in May, a 27 yr old D-19 and a 20 year old J-40M, both fixed with no questions asked. Though the warranty doesn't cover everything, it sure as hell ought to cover this sorry situation. Bruce Petros at Petros Guitars (an independant luthier) repaired mine. Bruce was slow but well worth the wait. The man is amazingly good (so are Petros Guitars).

Just curious, but why would someone spend $3500 on a guitar with high action that was "a bitch to play" in the first place?

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: mooman
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:16 AM

This sounds like a bad setup. The nut should not be deeply grooved but grooved just enough to guide the strings whilst maintaining the correct action at the first fret. Grooves in nuts can often pinch the strings resulting in loss of vibration. Sometimes, if you have no needle file to hand, the pinch at the nut can be eased by applying a little graphite from a softish pencil.

A slightly higher bone saddle sounds like it will help but this must be fitted properly to ensure contact of the bottom of the saddle along its length with the floor of the saddle slot.

A plastic shim on a $3500 guitar? I would like to meet that "authorised Martin repairperson" for a few words! It would have cost hardly anything to fit a proper height bone saddle or, if you need to use a shim at least a decent hardwood one securely glued to the base of the saddle. Also the grooves for the strings should not be deep at the saddle end the end pins tend anyway to hold the strings in the correct position so a light groove is quite sufficient.

The adjusting and setup has to be done carefully but this should be no more than a hour's work for anyone remotely competent.

Let us know the original shop who gave your friend total BS, did a useless job and sent him away for 6 months. "Naming and shaming" for this kind of nonsense is no bad thing!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM

I have a quandry here; both of these guys are good friends. The shop is where I go, and I have done business with them for 30 years. I can't believe the owner did this job, but I'm going to find out. Anyway, he is going to another well known luthier on Thursday.

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: mooman
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 08:14 AM

Understood! A tricky one!

Sounds to me too like the owner probably didn't do the job as he has a reputation to maintain.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: Vixen
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 08:24 AM

Dear Kendall--

Just so you know, your "$800 second-hand Taylor" is to die for.

As for the discussion about the function of price to "name" to playability, the result is variable to the point of randomness.

Guitars are all alike--every single one is different.

My $0.02, your mileage may vary...

(but I mean it about your Taylor, Kendall....)

V

Subject: RE: Tech: numb guitar strings
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 08:53 AM

Kendall, if it were me I would ship it off to Elderly's repair shop. These guys are some of the best in the country, and often Martin sends them restorations and repairs. I would send it to Joe Konkolly. If he can't get it right, it can't be done.

I play a lot of guitars. I always tell folks that they should go into Elderly with a blinder for the names. Play everything in sight and settle on the 4 or 5 instruments that speak to them. Then take those instruments down to a practice room with a friend who plays. In other words, get away from the sympathetic vibration of strings in the showroom. Play it, then have your friend play it with you in various places in the room. You want to feel the action and hear how it sounds out front.

I have often said that the finest guitar I have ever owned (in terms of sound, tone, action and overall playability) was a $225.00 US Seagull S6. I have never before or since owned/played an instrument with such warmth and playability. It was just "one of those" that came together right. And didn't cost me anything close to what I am playing now, but my Larrivee is another great instrument. Just a couple of more reasons why I love Canada. ;-))

Mick