Folklore: Braveheart...again

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Muttley
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:57 AM

I'd like to add a few comments (corrections) to the above.
Jack Halyard wrote that the Black Douglas died in the Holy Land.
Incorrect.

THE "Black Douglas" died at Stirling Castle. Apparently he was an arrogant, self-serving and 'superior' bugger who could offend people just by walking past their house - a mile away!
He was summoned to an audience with the King and took all of about 20 minutes to aggravate and then infuriate his monarch with his superciliousness and arrogance and following a particularly offensive comment, the King (can't recall which one - but iI'm certain it wasn't Robert the Bruce) drew his dirk and sliced him from crotch to breastbone. A coupe of nobles present joined in and also cut him down as did guards and his body was subsequently dumped from a window of the room they were in. The part of the grounds where the body landed are, to this day, called the Black Douglas Garden - it's in the official Stirling Castle guide - audio AND written.

Jim McLean is more correct in his rendition:
"The basic history in Braveheart is correct. Wallace rose up against the English invaders, his wife was murdered by the English sheriff, he beat the English at the battle of Stirling Bridge, he refused the Scottish crown and was eventually executed horribly by the English on a charge of treason which was obviously incorrect .. he was not an English subject. His 'screwing' of the wife of the homosexual King Edward the second of England and his meeting with Bruce were, I reckon, flung in for dramatic and humerous effect ...."

The truly horribly-wrong bits were that Wallace orchestrated the Battle of Stirling Bridge - he did NOT turn up later and goad the English into a fight. As well as which, in the movie, they omitted to show the BRIDGE. The bridge was the crux of the whole battle.

I'm not certain, though, Jim that Wallace was ever offered the crown. He wouldn't have taken it anyway as he was loyal to John Balliol (the crowned king in exile in France) - which was why the charge of treason was bollocks as well. He was fighting FOR his rightful king not against him - Edward was a usurper. His wife was murdered but that's not what caused his rampage / rebellion - she was murdered (executed if you are English) because she abetted Williams escape after he evaded capture following his brother-in-law's hanging - done to lure him out of hiding to comfort his wife and her grief-stricken family (which he did).

Jamis also correct re the screwing the wife of Edward II - in real life, she was only about 5 years old when William was executed !!!
He never chased English knights, confronting "The Bruce" following the disaster at Falkirk - that was Hollywood. In fact, it was Bruce who rode onto the Falkirk battlefield to extricate Wallace (forcibly) from Edward's troops. Bruce's and Comyn's forces were supposed to join Wallace at Falkirk, but Bruce arrived as the battle raged and Comyn withdrew before the battle, betraying Wallace and his army to Edward for lands in England. Comyn was eying off the Scottish crown himself

However: For Adolfo's sake - back to the film: The cry of the men after the fort was taken sounds like "McAulish" but is possibly meant to be "McCulich" (which would have been more like it for those days) BUT - - - I rather thought that the men were actually shouting "A-Wallace"
This type of 'chant' was a common one for a victorious clan or warband (or of one going INTO battle)- they would chant the leader's name prefixing it with "a". This would also make more sense as Wallace led that particular fight and his victorious men would have hailed his battle win with HIS name - "A-Wallce; A-Wallace; A-Wallace!"

BTW James - did you ever get around to translating Wallaces "trial declaration" into Scots Gaelic for me?
"How can I be guilty of treason when England is foreign to me?"

Send me a PM

Muttley (John Waters)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: billbunter
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:37 AM

Probably, this has all been said elsewhere but as kilts probably only appeared in the 1600's the Irish in the film are dressed much as the Scots would have been. The nobles, as has been pointed out, should have been dressed like the English, Edward speaking French, Bruce too. Stirling bridge was a piece of brilliant opportunism not very well shown in the film, Maybe they should have shown The English lord's body being flayed after the battle- The one thing about the film which surprised me was the death of Wallace. that was uterly underplayed and non violent compared to the reality.

Given all that, I don't think Wallace would have minded the film at all. Although he accepted the feudal system, he was still very much a people's man I think. And one thing for certain - he was heroic by anybodys standards. Anyone who could stand up to the English Army - at he time the finest in the Western world as he did, and remain steadfastly loyal to a lost cause is heroic.

His last words are all that is definitely known beyond oral tradition (I don't knock oral tradition - its often proven true)They were reported by some neutral French chronicler at the mock 'trial'. He reports that a scuffle broke out and Wallace shouted something like

'I was never a traitor. You were never my king and while the breath remains in this poor body you never shall be.'

That's a hero.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:51 AM

Coronation Street's not real?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: The Walrus
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:15 AM

Going back to the original qustion - I thought Wallace's battle cry was "Cracking Cheese, Grommet!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,MacUilin
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:32 AM

Muttley,
Methinks the Douglas you refer to was a later member of the clan and not the Sir James who fought alongside the Bruce. The name Black was allied to the Douglas name long after the death of Sir James (who did indeed fall in the Holy Land. )and a fair number is forebears were boths murderers and murderer after him. The Black Douglas you refer to was the 8th earl who fell out of favour with the King and was killed by him and his courtiers in the 1450's.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: BexMcK
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:48 PM

Actually, it was "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

Oh, oops, wrong film.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:48 AM

And it's taken you five years to work that out? What does that make you?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

The best bit of "Braveheart" for me is still the boxer shorts clearly visible on one of Wallce's warriors when he is upendeed.

One of the earlier posters mentioned Richard Harris's portrayal of Cromwell -as I remember, several of the quotations attributed to the great man were actually said by someone else, and at least one was said by someone on the other side.

I remember in the old "Robin Hood" series starring Richard Green, Friar Tuck walking through Sherwood Forest with a telegraph pole clearly visible in the background, and a rather nice shot of the then new M1.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

This reminds me of the sharp critiques my mother, a registered nurse of long experience, would utter while watching medical dramas like Dr. Kildaire, Ben Casey and others. I kept reminding her, "it's just a story." She would always respond, "Yes, but that doesn't mean they can't get basic technique right." Of course, she once had a doctor thrown out of the OR for "breaking scrub." No mercy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Jim, I sang that song in a gig in Poland recently... coupled with Cam ye o'er frae France?

Went down pretty well (a bit like the bridge itself!). Should I say the cheque is in the post?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I once heard Mel didn't want to use too many people called Campbell (I think) as leading extras as he didn't think the name was Scottish enough.

The scene where the Scots and Irish charge and then shake hands bugs me supremely, "Och Aye!" all around.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

Dear Mutley, I will translate but you must promise me you will not tatoo it round your arm, or anywhere else for that matter!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:53 PM

Great lyrics, Jim (once again)!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM

And that was me, meself - once again.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:39 AM

the movie's based off the poem "braveheart" (hence the title), not the actualy life of wallace.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Braveheart...again
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:16 PM

mcaulich is gealic for son of Wallace and for those saying the history is wrong i think you,ll find the main aspect of the film was true,it shows total disrespect and ignorance of the English and the Scottish did defeat the English in 1314 and still to this day England have never sent such a large army,some people need to realize this is a Hollywood film and has been glamorized and made into a kind of love story Wallace fought for his rights not his wife,