Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale

Subject: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:14 PM

This is to let you who might be interested know that my way of telling THE GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale is now written out and posted with Keith Yaylor's drawing of that generally unheralded aspect of American western history at the website containing all my folkie photos. Once again, that site is located at:

http://rudegnu.com/art_thieme.html

The tale is one I first got from Jack Thorp's rendition in his old book called Pardner Of The Wind. Thorp also put out the first book of cowboy songs ever published in the USA---in 1908.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM

That ought to read Keith Taylor---not Yaylor. Keith Taylor was a bartender par excellence at the Chicago folk club called HOLSTEIN'S back in 1983 or so. I hope you might enjoy some of my old folk scene photographs that you'll find on that site too.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:43 PM

Art, you've shared so many treasures with us over the years. I'm glad you now have a Website for putting some of those treasures together in one place. I take it that Bruce Kallick is the Webmaster, eh?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:05 PM

Hi Art! How's your summer going? Are you going to go on vacation? We are lazing around in the upper 90's, hot and humid. I could only mess with my ponds and cut yard grass for under an hour today...

I'm intimidated by the Web of Birdsong melody and have been putting off learning it. But I've listened to it a bunch. My friend's father died, whose farm I pick blueberries at in Sopchoppy, Florida (you know, the town Frank Lindamood is from) and his family gave me his dad's banjo and old folk records from the old days. Sweet!

I need to send you Mary Cox's rcords. You'll like her playing too! Sorry I haven't been writing letters. Too busy with Nathan's plans to leave home for the wilds of west Florida next month. love, harpy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:31 PM

Have other people had problems accessing Art's website using their Mudcat name and pass word. Mine doesn't seem to make it through and I did try diligently.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:41 PM

Hi, Art:

Your Great Turtle Drive is one of my all-time favorite tall tales. But then, my second, third, fourth and fifth all-time favorite tall tales are from you, too. I love the one about the geese getting frozen into the pond, and the dog that was cut in half. That's just for starters.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM

Hi, Charley - on Art's site, your user name is mudcat and your password is mudcat. Art's site is not linked to your personal Mudcat user name and password.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 10:40 PM

Joe,

Yes, you are correct---that is Bruce Kallick who is the webmaster there; it's his site. He's Kathy Kallick's dad. (Kathy from the west coast Good Old Persons (bluegrass band) --- and she has done some fine solo CDs (with friends galore) in recent times as well.

Charley Noble:
I think you mis-read those instructions. What you must do is use the actual word Mudcat for BOTH the username and the password. Bruce Kallick didn't want his site to be found by search engines---and by using the ruse of a user name and a password---even one he gives you before hand---it somehow keeps search engines from finding it. Either way, it didn't matter to me, but it's Bruce's place. Better luck next try!!-------- And I've seen he's put some family photos of his own family up there too. I didn't take those. Maybe Bruce did. ;-)

Jerry,

I'm glad you like my lies. Strange, I'd forgotten about that Great Raccoon Hunt tale with the frozen geese. I ought to go back and listen to my old album. And thanks for the B-day present. Some wonderful photos there in that book. Folks, it's compiled by Bob Carlin--the banjo frailer. It's called SOUTHERN EXPOSURE. Be sure to look for it !!

And Harp, Good to hear from you for sure. Yes, I guess you could say I've been on vacation !! (That's all I do now. ;-) I've been captioning those photos full time though. And we got to the Dulcimer Festival in Morris, Illinois yesterday--July 10. Had a grand time. Heard Neil Hellman who is an amazing player of the Appalachian Dulcimer. What blew me away there though was a wonderful set by an old friend, ANNA STANG, who has become one of the best singers and folksingers I've ever heard. I am pretty sure I'll be starting a thread about Anna as soon as I check out the correct spelling of her last name. What a great singer and performer she has become. I'm embarrassed to say it all went down   while I wasn't looking.(For KIDS mostly--but adults too.) It seemed to happen so quickly. Reminded me of Robert Johnson!! I went up to har after her set and asked, "Did you sell your soul to the Devil recently???" I had to explain myself then. ;-)

Enjoy those photos I took.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:03 AM

G'day Art,

I got in ... using 'mudcat' as both ID and password ... but I can't conjure up your tales. I can see the way in for the photographs (and very interesting they are!) but the tall tales are eluding me.

(Actually, the last time I tried to get into your photo /tale section ... I got into "curmudgeon's" - maybe there is some transient problem in the site's links.)

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: BK Lick
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 02:29 AM

Please, folks, follow the directions at http://rudegnu.com/art_thieme.html which tell you to use ÒmudcatÓ for both user name and password (not Mudcat).

To find Art's Great Turtle Drive tale, click on the "Search" link and search for the word "turtle."

Where Art has provided accompanying text for a photo, the caption will end with (more...) -- then clicking on the thumbnail image will display a full size image together with the accompanying text.

Just like the Mudcat Discussion Forum, you need to experiment a bit to see how everything works.

         -- BK

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:28 PM

Yes, that's pretty much the way to do it---what Mr. Kallixk (B.K.) just said. It took me a while to figure stuff out myself--but, like that fish in Finding Nemo, I have no recent memory these days, So I seem to need to read the directions avery time I go there to re-learn my way.

And I did just send Bruce a photo of the entrance and steps of Italian Hall in Maquette, Michigan--Upper Peninsula (the U.P.)--with a short blurb on "The 1913 Massacre" that took place there.

The Italian Hall has been torn down.

If you want to get a real feel for the U.P. of Michigan--and particularly the Keweenaw Peninsula, the mines and the tough times there over the years--listen to Craig Johnson's songs --- especially "The Keweenaw Light" (called "The Banks Of Cold Waters" by some)---and "Fire In The Jackpines" (known as "The Soo Line" to some). I recorded both of them on the CD called THAT'S THE TICKET on Folk Legacy Records. www.folklegacy.com

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 06:25 PM

Thanks, gang. Armed with your advice I will once again attempt to access the turtle's tail...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 06:34 PM

Art-

I am gratified greatly. What an awesome tail! What a turd of hurtles that must have been!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:07 AM

Clicking on the thumbnail get the message that tere is no full size image...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:01 AM

I read it - don't you have it recorded somewhere, Art? I just know I've heard you tell it. It's a great tale, and thanks for letting us know about it!

Allison

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 03:55 PM

Allison,

You're correct. I did it twice on recordings. It was on my first LP for Kicking Mule Records---OUTRIGHT BOLDFACED LIES--Live At The Old Town School Of Folk Music (1975). All of Kicking Mule was sold to Fantasy Records and F. shows no sign of ever issuing it. I also put it on the LIVE AT WINFIELD (KANSAS) cassette (now out o' print). The Winfield recording was told better than the early one. The story has a way of morphing as time passed. An example would be my inserting references to Enron and Arthur Andersen in the version I just put up with Keith Taylor's drawing of the Turtle Drive. He drew that while I told it one night at Holstein's bar in the 80s. When I got off stage he handed it to me. And I just saw Keith Taylor at the Memorial for Freddy Holstein in Chicago last April.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:25 PM

Art-
I'm trying to develop a package for a CD of Almeda Riddle. Your photo is the best I've found so far. Can I get permission to use it (with proper accreditation, of course.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM

Dick,

Of course. I could re-scan it at high resolution whenever you might want it. Consider this my permission. My photo of Brian Bowers about to carry a stack of 5 autoharps up the stairs of Stage One at the Winfield, Kansas Walnut Valley Festival now adorns the front cover of the most recent issue of AUTOHARP QUARTERLY.

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:03 PM

Your tale of hurtling turds is one of the all time best Tall Tales yet told, Art. A valuable addition to our history. Thank Gawd for turtle recall.


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:58 PM

There is a VERY recent kid's book out of this with some great artwork. It's by some fellow from the town where Utah Phillips lives---Nevada City in California.

Since he never asked politely to use the tale I told for so many years even while it wasn't mine, and he never gave credit where it was due either, I'm choosing to not mention his name here. I hope he makes a few million bucks from N. Howard "Jack" Thorp's great old tale. ;-)

((((((ART THIEME))))))

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: MAG
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:11 PM

gee Art, does this mean I should not buy the book for my library??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

No, Maryann, go get it. It's fun.

I just liked it better when giving credit to one's sources was considered a good ethic and a way to partake in a bit of the scholarship mentality that drove the great song collectors on their treasure hunts.

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 12:07 AM

Thanx Art--for the permission and the site and a whole bunch of good music and talk.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: MAG
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 12:12 AM

It still is, Art. In fact, a good friend is finishing up her thesis on the changing standards of source notation in published (children's editions of) folklore.

Not acknowledging one's source -- usually as a way of avoiding royalty sharing -- is definitely declasse' in publishing.

When publishing "one's own version," citing ALL sources is much much preferable than none. The child_lit discussion group just had a lengthy discussion of a scholarly article on fakelore. The author was agin' it.

MA, just in from a heavy spate of weeding. Gee, ya let it go for a lousy two weeks ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:14 PM

Is Art the only person on the surface of this earth who has recorded "turtle Drive"? I thought Utah Phillips had recorded this, but I can't find a recording. Any chance U.U. Phillips recorded it under a different title.
How about Kendall - did he ever record it?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Mark Ross
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM

Joe,
Utah told this story as one of his CHARLIE GOODNIGHT-OLIVER LOVING tales. It might be on his MOSCOW HOLD CD, but if it isn't, I would bet that Utah's son Duncan has a recording of it somewhere in his files.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:32 PM

I am just about positive that Utah got the idea of telling the tale from my 1975 LP record for Kicking Mule. I'd been telling it for several years before I recorded it. I read it in Thorp's book. Then I changed it around and it morphed some more in the next few years. Of course, Jack Thorp never had a pun on Studs Terkel's name in his book. That just happened one night in the early 1970s. I liked it, so it stayed.

Utah told a truncated version of it on Garrison Keillor's radio program. Strangely, Bruce sounded pretty hurried or nervous on that show. Maybe there were time constraints on him. I've been told that, back in those days, Garrison was rather reluctant to have other talk-oriented raconteurs on his show. --

-- Still, I felt hurt when Utah never gave me credit for either the "Great Turtle Drive" tale OR the "Egg Settin' Horse" story.

Such is life,
Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:39 PM

Well, for Rog and me, no one would ever do it justice but you, our Fine Art!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: open mike
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 01:56 AM

Jack Thorpe was a great resource. Why, just today I was listening to a c.d. by mudcatter Rex and a partner, filled with songs from Jack Thorpe. And Don Edwards, a great cowboy singer did a special on Jack's
songs at a cowboy gathering in Elko...you can see the streaming video on the www.westernfolklife.org web site.

I loved your story, and am glad it came back for us to enjoy!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Art's GREAT TURTLE DRIVE tall tale
From: BK Lick
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:09 AM

By the way, you can listen to Art's telling of the tale of The Great Turtle Drive,
together with some other lovely vintage Art Thieme material, here.