BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism

Subject: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:40 AM

One of the 20 injured victims (one young woman was murdered) in yesterday's terrorist bombing in Tel Aviv was Sammi Masrawa, an Israeli Arab who headed a committee trying to bring Israelis and Palestinians together.

Now, as a victim of Palestinian terrorism, Masrawa wants to keep them apart.

Sammi Masrawa's story is at this link.

Arafat's Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade has claimed credit for the terrorist act.

That sory is at this link.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:02 PM

Did anyone in the international community condemn the security wall around the Gaza strip as it was being built?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 03:43 PM

From another article:

"I am an Arab from Jaffa, a leftist, and I was opposed to the separation fence until today," said Masrawa, who survived the attack at a downtown bus stop with mild injuries. "But the terrorists do not distinguish between Jews and Arabs. After what I saw today, I hope to set up a lobby in favor of the fence."

link

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 04:03 PM

Maybe Sammi should move to Hull and drive a taxi.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:33 AM

Reading the links posted here I get angry for at least two reasons:

(1) the attack added deadly injury to the insult of last Friday's ruling at The Hague that the fence is illegal and must be dismantled. (from the article of the last link).

A journalist aiming at accuracy would have told that the The Hague ruling did not declare the fence illegal, but only where it is positioned. That's a big difference and it could be explained to the readers.

(2) I wonder about Masrawa. He could know it all along that the Palestinian bombing campaign was indiscriminate and that it killed Jews, Arabs, foreign visitors, whoever was near to the explosion. Masrawa is far from being the first Arab victim of Palestinian bombs (not counting the suicide carriers). Why someone has to feel injury himself before objecting to indiscriminate bombing I can not understand.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:07 AM

"Maybe Sammi should move to Hull and drive a taxi." Don't be daft lad - 'e knaws where 'es best off, th' knaws.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:49 PM

Sammi has just been blown up, narrowly ecaping death and witnessing dimemberment.
A lack of rational reasoning is understandable Wolfgang.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:27 PM

As I once mentioned before on another thread, the Palestinian homicide bombers, do not pull out a guitar and start singing "Which Side Are You On", before detonating their lethal explosives. They just want to kill anyone and everyone to get their point across. Bin Laden did not care how many Muslims were in the World Trade Center either. Somehow, when you are a Jew and try to defend yourself, you are judged by different standards than the rest of humanity. And you think that Arafat really cares if a few of his own people are killed as well ? If he has to sacrafice 100 Arabs to kill one Jew, he figures he is still ahead of the game. Did you notice how the incidents of bombings in Israel has decreased rapidly since Israel has started targeting and taking out the leadership of the Terrorist Hamas & Al Aksa brigades ? It is as if the Intefada has come to a screeching halt. I think that by now, people are starting to get the message that we Jews no longer walk to the gas chambers like lambs to the slaughter. We have learned how to fight back. To turn the other cheek is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:42 PM

I support the building of a wall separating Israel from the West Bank along the green line. Most of the world would not argue with this idea. Build the wall. But build it on land that is not in dispute (along the Green Line). Anything else is thinly disguised theft.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:12 PM

I support the building of a wall separating Israel from the West Bank along the green line. Most of the world would not argue with this idea. Build the wall. But build it on land that is not in dispute (along the Green Line). Anything else is thinly disguised theft.

One of the problems with your solution is that the Palestinians themselves do not accept the Green Line. The map of "Palestine" that is taught to Palestinian school childred includes Tel Aviv, Haifa and Be'er Sheva. They are taught that all of Israel proper is occupied territory.

Furthermore, the Green Line is an artificial construct based on where the fighting stopped in 1949. What makes more sense to me, are the land swaps that the Israeli left, and some Palestinians, embrace. These swaps would mean that the border would be redrawn so that several Israeli settlements in the border area would become part of Israel and abd several Arab villages that are within Israel, but near the border, could become part of a Palestinian state. Under that plan, Israeli settlements that are deeper in Palestinian territory would be abandoned or fall under Palestinian soverignty and Arab-Israeli villages not very close to the border would remain part of Israel.

In any case, thanks to the recent ruling by Israel's Supreme Court, the wall will be rerouted where it was shown to infringe on legitimate Palestinian territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:25 PM

Oh bullshit, GUEST,C-watch. The Palestinians will accept the wall if it's built along the Green Line. They have said so themseves. They welcome a wall built along the Green Line, to keep the IDF the hell out.

Any shifting of the border between Israel and the West Bank that varies from the Green Line should be negotiated. Israel is unilaterally making that determination by building the wall wherever it wants. That's still theft.

And this is what the international community has condemned.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM

And naturally, whatever the Palestinians say, they are always to be believed.
          "The Gospel According To CarolC"

                                                   SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:29 PM

No, CarolC, it's not bullshit.

Read the PLO Charter, still the supreme policy document of the Palestinian Authority.

For example:

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

There's a lot more to the Charter. You should read it.

Here's a link to it at the Yale University Law School site.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:32 PM

Rabbi Sol, the way you use terms like "Palestinians" and "Palestinian sympathizers" (as you did on another thread recently), it comes across sounding a lot like "niggers" and "nigger lovers". Is that how you intend it to sound?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:37 PM

GUEST,C-watch, if Israel builds the wall in good faith along the Green Line (everybody knows it's just a "temporary" wall anyway, right?), then it really wouldn't matter whether or not the Palestinians wanted it there, would it? But if Israel did build such a wall, and then removed its troops from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians get on with the process of building their country, it would make a lot of Palestinians very, very happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM

Thanks for posting the link to the PLO charter. It's in telling contrast to Carol's lies about what the Palestinians really want.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM

If you think the PLO Charter is scary, you should read the Hamas Charter. For example:

Article Fifteen: The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

Article Thirty-Two: World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

The complete Hamas Charter is on this page.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:10 PM

CarolC. I see that racism is still alive and well in the trailer parks of the great state of Alabama, even though George Wallace has long gone to his eternal resting place where the climate is very warm.
The words that you just used have no place on this forum, or in my vocabulary. Now, in getting back to the issue at hand, once the Palestinians get their independent sovereign state in Gaza and the West Bank, they are going to want the territory between them as well. They are going to want freedom of mobility between the 2 sections of their nation. The barrier, even if it is along the green line, is going to restrict and impede that mobility. Therefore, I do not believe that they are ever going to be in favor of it. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:27 PM

Rabbi Sol, the words I used, "nigger lover", were used against my mother while she was fighting for civil rights for African Americans here in the US while I was a child growing up in Rhode Island. And what my mother taught me during that time in her life, and what my mother's civil rights worker friends (both Black and White) taught me, is to recognize racism wherever it occurs, any by whomever it is practiced. The way you talk about Palestinians sounds incredibly racist to me, and that is why I asked it it is your intention to sound that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:33 PM

So, back to the subject of the wall. You, GUEST,C-watch, and Rabbi Sol, are both saying that the wall is needed because it is effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel. But then you are saying that the wall can't be put along the Green Line because the Palestinians don't want it there. But you are trying to justify putting it somewhere that the Palestinians like even less than along the Green Line. And then you are saying this is necessary because the wall won't be effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel.

This is nonesense. There is no good justificication for putting the wall anywhere other than along the Green Line, except for the purpose of confiscating more land from the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:35 PM

CarolC

You hear what you want to hear and you easily tried to put words in Rabbi-Sol's mouth. It's quite distorted, along with your terrorist sympathy way of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:46 PM

Martin, you hear what you want to hear, and you easily try to put words in my mouth. It's quite distorted, along with the rest of your very bigoted way of thinking.

At least I asked the Rabbi if that was how he intended to sound. You have never done me that courtesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:47 PM

So, back to the subject of the wall. You, GUEST,C-watch, and Rabbi Sol, are both saying that the wall is needed because it is effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel. But then you are saying that the wall can't be put along the Green Line because the Palestinians don't want it there. But you are trying to justify putting it somewhere that the Palestinians like even less than along the Green Line. And then you are saying this is necessary because the wall won't be effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel.

You're putting words in my mouth. I've never said the wall is needed or that I support it. In point of fact, YOU are the one who's said she supports a wall between the Israelis and Palestinians.

What I've said is that, the 1949 Green Line is not necessarily the realistic border between Israel and a future Palestinian state. Something that many progressive Israelis and Palestinians agree with.

YOU are the one who has said she supports a wall between the Palestinians and Israelis.

What I support is a Palestinian society that renounces terrorism and does not allow its citizens to perpetrate terrorism. As soon as that becomes a reality, there will be no wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:49 PM

If you don't support the building of the wall, why the hell did you start this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Just as I have not said that I support the wall, I have also not said that I don't support it. What I most definitely support is the elimination of terrorism, which would negate any need for the wall.

I started this thread because it was interesting to hear the perspective of an Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism and how being the victim of random Palestinian terrorism changed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

How about Israel tears down the wall when Muslim extremists worldwide agree to stop teaching their kids to hate and kill Jews.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when China ends its illegal occupation of Tibet.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when Saudi Arabia tears down its wall protecting itself from marauders from other gulf states.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when Morocco tears down its 1,000-mile long security barrier across the heart of the territory of Western Sahara, which it used to take control of the best two-thirds of the territory for Morocco.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when Spain tears down its fence it built in Ceuta, on the border with Morocco, in order to keep illegal workers out of Spain.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the fence when Israel knows it can expect unbiased treatment from Europe, the UN and all those others who condemn Israel for doing what every nation does: protect the lives of its citizens from terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:54 PM

What I support is a Palestinian society that renounces terrorism and does not allow its citizens to perpetrate terrorism. As soon as that becomes a reality, there will be no wall.

--GUEST,C-watch

How about Israel tears down the wall when Muslim extremists worldwide agree to stop teaching their kids to hate and kill Jews.

--GUEST,13 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

These are both forms of collective punishment. Are you both saying that you support collective punishment?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

Certainly Bigotry is alive and well in your home Mr. Saul.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:00 AM

Certainly is in your trailer Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:08 PM

Only when you come to visit, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM

Ah... Thees one is a nausty little buggar, yeh see 'em hiding behind that anonimity bush and sniping in his cowardly way at those who walk by. Not even a croc would be that low down and dirty. That's why I'm changing the name of the show. This fall on the Mudcat channel, Irv Steewin the Troll Hunter.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: mg
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:38 PM

We needn't equate people who have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians with people who automatically support the terrorist activities of some of them. Speaking for myself, I would shoot dead a terrorist of any persuasion, if there was not time enough for other alternatives and lives were in immediate danger. If I were the UN in charge of some of the schools there I would be checking out exactly what is taught. If I were passing out American dollars to Israel I would make sure we knew what the borders were we are paying to defend. There would be no, zero, settlements in certain areas. They would be set aside for farmers, particularly those who could farm with little water. There would be a transportation system to get farmers back and forth to their farms and through whatever checkpoints are necessary. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,Yes Sir, I Are A Fat Ham Ass
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:03 PM

Trailer park people are my favorouter people and CarolC and Jack The Sailor got no bigotry in there trailer park trailer. There behind all of the people that are discriminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:13 PM

I am sure they are glad to be so well liked by the fat rump of a pig who writes like a dildo.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:27 PM

Yes, GUEST, Yes Sir, I Are A Fat Ham Ass, and Martin Gibson. You are both showing all of us what cultured and open minded people you are.

You are both a credit to your respective suburban cul-de-sacs.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:33 PM

I wouldn't trade my wonderful suburban cul-de-sac for anything, CarolC. I've worked hard to get it. It wasn't handed to me. A full 2 stories, 4 bedrooms and full basement. Just put in a brand new central A/C unit. a beautiful garden of a back yard, too. Think I'll grill up some steaks tonight on the deck. Like heaven on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:34 PM

I'm happy for you, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM

Thank you CarolC.

I'm happy for me, also. Actually am quite thankful.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 06:41 PM

Lyrics: Jack was every inch a sailor
         Lived with Carol in a trailer

By the way Jack, the name is Sol (short for Solomon) not Saul. Now, both of you, show me where I am the bigot. And try using logic for a change instead of invective. And another question. As a fellow folk music enthusiast, would I be welcome in your trailer should I decide to pay you a visit on my next swing through Dixie ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 06:56 PM

We would be honored to have you as our guest, Rabbi Sol.

And naturally, whatever the Palestinians say, they are always to be believed.
          "The Gospel According To CarolC"

First of all, this looks like invective to me. And it also looks like you're implying that Palestinians are not to be trusted just because they are Palestinians. But I did ask if you meant to sound the way you were coming across to me, because it's not always possible to tell from just seeing someone's words in print like this.

Now, on the subject of our trailer. We like it. It's the kind of lifestyle we want right now. We're happy here for now, and when we're ready to go someplace else, we will.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 07:48 PM

Carol. I did not imply that there is anything wrong with a trailer. I kind of like that type of life myself. On vacations I used to rent an RV and travel around the country to various Bluegrass Festivals. It is a welcome change from suburban Rockland County, NY where I live.
On many of these trips I used to go out for as much as 18 days around the south, and met some very interesting people. Now, lest us get back to the Middle East. I like to judge people not by what they say but by whether those words are backed up by actions. How many times has Arafat pledged to halt terrorism. Has he done so ? No. In the last Camp David summit, he was offered more than ever before in terms of territorial concessions and his own sovereign state. What was his answer ? The intefada. Yes, when ever there is a suicide bombing attack, he was the first to condemm it, in English, to the Western press. However, the very same day, in Arabic, he praises that attack to an Arab audience as an example of the Jihad he so fervently believes in. Can you show me any positive examples of promises kept & not broken ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 07:58 PM

Rabbi Sol, the intifada was not Arafat's decision. It was a spontaneous outburst of emotion from Palestinians after a gathering of them had been fired upon, and several of them killed, by Israeli soldiers as they (the Palestinians) were demonstrating, armed only with rocks.

Personally, I don't favor the use of collective punishment as a way of accomplishing a political agenda. And if all of the Palestinians are to be punished for whatever Arafat does or does not do, that is collective punishment. Collective punishment is against the Geneva convention, and it also has been one of the favorite tactics of people you and I would probably both regard as not being ones we would want to emulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 09:39 PM

But Arafat is the acknowledged leader as President of the Palestinian Authority. Are you saying that he has no control over what his own people do ? Plus, you have not as yet addressed the point about him saying one thing in English and the very opposite in Arabic ?
                                                SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 10:23 PM

Read this and then tell me why the Palestinians should trust the government of Israel. It's from the Israeli Jewish human rights organization, Gush Shalom.

http://www.spectacle.org/0601/israel.html

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement was going to result in their independence and a sovereign state for them)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said."
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1995/100595.htm

During the Israeli incursions into the occupied territories in spring of 2002, the IDF destroyed most of the PA civil infrastructure, including police and other security forces. So I think it's reasonable to suppose that Arafat doesn't have the physical means to do what you think he ought to do, especially considering the fact that he is being completely imprisoned within his compound by the IDF. But personally, I don't see why he should be expected to provide security for an occupying force. The government of Israel should remove all of its forces from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and defend its border, the Green Line, from the Israeli side.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 10:29 PM

Plus, you have not as yet addressed the point about him saying one thing in English and the very opposite in Arabic

He's in a pretty tight spot, don't you think? He's being put in a position by the government of Israel of having to be the enforcer for an occupying force. That's got to really sting for most Palestinians. If he looks like he's only protecting Israel's "interests" in the occupied territories, it will look like he's betraying the Palestinians. That's a completely untenable position for anyone to have to be in.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 11:11 PM

Rabbi-Sol

Implying that someone is bigoted because they live in "George Wallace's" Alabama Smacks of bigotry. As does implying that they are ignorant because they are living in a trailer park. How would you feel if I said you were rude like Martin Gibson simply because you both support... well.... because of any arbitrary similarity.

I'd love to meet with you and talk about music. But I don't think I'd want to talk about anything else related to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:53 AM

A View From The Eye Of The Storm

Extracts from a talk delivered by Haim Harari, a notable Israeli theoretical scientist, at a meeting of the International Advisory Board of a large multinational corporation, April 2004.

"… The root of the trouble is that this entire Moslem region is totally dysfunctional, by any standard of the word, and would have been so even if Israel would have joined the Arab league and an independent Palestine would have existed for 100 years. The 22 member countries of the Arab league, from Mauritania to the Gulf States, have a total population of 300 millions, larger than the US and almost as large as the EU before its expansion. They have a land area larger than either the US or all of Europe. These 22 countries, with all their oil and natural resources, have a combined GDP smaller than that of Netherlands plus Belgium and equal to half of the GDP of California alone. Within this meager GDP, the gaps between rich and poor are beyond belief and too many of the rich made their money not by succeeding in business, but by being corrupt rulers. The social status of women is far below what it was in the Western World 150 years ago. Human rights are below any reasonable standard, in spite of the grotesque fact that Libya was elected Chair of the UN Human Rights commission. According to a report prepared by a committee of Arab intellectuals and published under the auspices of the UN, the number of books translated by the entire Arab world is much smaller than what little Greece alone translates. The total number of scientific publications of 300 million Arabs is less than that of 6 million Israelis. Birth rates in the region are very high, increasing the poverty, the social gaps and the cultural decline. And all of this is happening in a region, which only 30 years ago, was believed to be the next wealthy part of the world, and in a Moslem area, which developed, at some point in history, one of the most advanced cultures in the world.

"I should also say a word about the millions of decent, honest, good people who are either devout Moslems or are not very religious but grew up in Moslem families. They are double victims of an outside world, which now develops Islamophobia and of their own environment, which breaks their heart by being totally dysfunctional. The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and of the incitement but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views. …

"What is behind the suicide murders? Money, power and cold-blooded murderous incitement, nothing else. It has nothing to do with true fanatic religious beliefs. No Moslem preacher has ever blown himself up. No son of an Arab politician or religious leader has ever blown himself up. No relative of anyone influential has done it. Wouldn't you expect some of the religious leaders to do it themselves, or to talk their sons into doing it, if this is truly a supreme act of religious fervor? Aren't they interested in the benefits of going to Heaven? Instead, they send outcast women, naive children, retarded people and young incited hotheads. They promise them the delights, mostly sexual, of the next world, and pay their families handsomely after the supreme act is performed and enough innocent people are dead. …

"… A suicide murder is simply a horrible, vicious weapon of cruel, inhuman, cynical, well-funded terrorists, with no regard to human life, including the life of their fellow countrymen, but with very high regard to their own affluent well-being and their hunger for power. …

"… The Spanish trains and the Istanbul bombings are only the beginning. The unity of the Civilized World in fighting this horror is absolutely indispensable. Until Europe wakes up, this unity will not be achieved. …

"Above all, never surrender to terror. No one will ever know whether the recent elections in Spain would have yielded a different result, if not for the train bombings a few days earlier. But it really does not matter. What matters is that the terrorists believe that they caused the result and that they won by driving Spain out of Iraq. The Spanish story will surely end up being extremely costly to other European countries, including France, who is now expelling inciting preachers and forbidding veils and including others who sent troops to Iraq. In the long run, Spain itself will pay even more. …

"I have no doubt that the civilized world will prevail. But the longer it takes us to understand the new landscape of this war, the more costly and painful the victory will be. Europe, more than any other region, is the key. Its understandable recoil from wars, following the horrors of World War II, may cost thousands of additional innocent lives, before the tide will turn."

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 12:24 PM

The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and of the incitement but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission

Bingo!

...and when people like you and me do not stand up against the crimes that the government of Israel commits against the Palestinians, we become accomplices by ommission. And for those of us whose taxes are making these crimes possible, we become active accomplices.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 02:43 PM

Keep paying your taxes or you will go to jail.

I love that your taxes go to support Israel.

Deal with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 02:54 PM

I am dealing with it, Martin. That's why I choose activism rather than silent complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 03:43 PM

I say, get a life. Most people hate activists. their best audience is themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:11 PM

Jack, I did not imply that people living in trailer parks or in Alabama are ignorant. To the contrary; Your wife is a highly intelligent person although I do not share her views on the Middle East. As far as bigoted or racist goes, I based that statement totally upon her use of the "N" word which speaks for itself. I equate it with the use of the "K" word which would be considered a personal attack upon myself. I find that people who use one are the same who will use the other as well, and that I will not tolerate. Yes Jack, I would like to meet you one day, perhaps at a folk festival where we can discuss music. When I am on this forum, I generally like to dwell above the line rather than below it. This is only one of 2 ocassions where I was forced to express my opinions on a non-music thread. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:14 PM

I like my life as it is, Martin. Southern White segregationists hated civil rights activists like my mother when I was growing up. If she and the other civil rights activists had let that sort of thing bother them, the American South might still be segregated. That might not bother you too much, but I would have a difficult time accepting it.

I'll live my life as I choose, just as I'm sure you'll live your life as you choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:23 PM

Carol, As far as the Green line or pre-1967 borders go, Israel acquired the West Bank and Gaza in a war that was fought for self defense. Egypt's Gamal Abdul Nasser together with Syria and Jordan formed an unholy alliance for the purpose of destroying Israel. Israel won the war that it did not want to fight, but was forced upon it. In the process, it acquired the so called occupied territories. I do not know of a single case in history where a country that fought a defensive war was asked to relinquish the territory that it won. Of course, Jews are always treated differently by the world and held to different standards. I do not see anybody demanding the the USA give Texas back to Mexico. How come the Palestinian people did not demand that Jordan and Egypt grant them a sovereign state prior to 1967 when these territories were occupied by their Arab bretheren ?
SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:23 PM

Just saying nigger is not in and of itself racist, Rabbi Sol. It is perfectly legitimate to equate the use of hate language toward one group of people such as the use of the word "nigger" against American Blacks and the use of the word "nigger lover" toward people like my mother, to the use of other hate language toward other groups of people, if it helps people recognize that what they are engaging in is hate language. And that is what I was attempting to do here on this thread.

I never heard the "k" word as I was growing up, and I never knew what it was supposed to mean until I was in my twenties. Same goes for all other racial and ethnic slurs. I did know about the word, "nigger" because my parents prepared me for the possibility that I might hear it being used against my mother's Black civil rights worker friends, and the phrase "nigger-lover" because it might be used against my mother. I think they were correct in preparing me for this possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM

What's the 'k' word?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:30 PM

Rabbi Sol, it was not in self-defense. It was a "pre-emptive" attack waged by Israel on its neighbors for the purpose of acquiring more land. I will begin gathering documentation and post it to this thread later today or tomorrow.

And even if it had been fought in self defense, it is illegal under international law (laws to which Israel is a signatory), to colonize land that has been occupied in such a war situation. And also, it was not the Palestinians against whom that war was being fought, so it hardly makes any sense for Israel to use that war as an excuse to steal that land from the Palestinians.

Did you read the contents of my first link?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:34 PM

How come the Palestinian people did not demand that Jordan and Egypt grant them a sovereign state prior to 1967 when these territories were occupied by their Arab bretheren?

How do you know they didn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:42 PM

Yes they did, but not from Jordan or Egypt. They wanted Tel Aviv, Haifa and all the rest of Israel. Not the West Bank or Gaza where they lived. Their position today remains unchanged. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:52 PM

No. Their position has changed. And they have signed agreements committing them to this change.

But you do not know that they didn't protest the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank, or the Egyptian occupation of Gaza. The fact is, they were not at all happy with that arrangement, and they are still angry with Jordan, in particular, for the way that country betrayed them.

I find myself concluding that you have not read the contents of the first link that I posted.

Israel has never declared what its borders are. Israel has never legally defined its borders. Why do you think that is, Rabbi Sol?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:23 PM

CarolC.

first of all, when were you last in Israel and know what is really going on there? Rabbi-Sol is an orthodox religious man who I am sure has been to Israel on more than a few occasions and I would not be surprised if he knows real people there, not Internet sites.

You think that you are close to the situation. rural Alabama is far away from anything that probably resembles a Jew who can communicate with you face to face about Israel. The south is most known for it's bigotry over most any other region in this country. There is a reason very few Jews live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:35 PM

When did you and/or Rabbi Sol last spend time in the home of a Palestinian family in the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem, Martin? You and Rabbi Sol, and others here in the Mudcat profess to know what is in the minds of Palestinians, but you refuse to actually listen to what they have to say. You and Rabbi Sol may know a lot about what goes on amongst Israeli Jews, but I'll bet I know more about what life is like for Israeli Arabs than you do. And I know that I know more about what life is like for Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem than either you or Rabbi Sol.

Suburban Illinois is far away from the living hell the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are being subjected to by the Israeli government. Go spend some time as a guest in the homes of some Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and/or East Jerusalem and then come back and tell me what to do.

On the subject of the south. I've only lived here in Alabama since late November of 2003. Before that, I lived for about six months in the Detroit, Michigan area (lots of Jews there), and before that, about nine months in the city of Columbus, Georgia. Columbus has a very healthy and thriving Jewish community. Before I moved to Columbus (that would be slightly less than two years ago, I lived in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. Shepherdstown is considered a part of the Greater Washington DC area. The greater Washington DC area has an incredibly healthy and thriving Jewish community, and it extends as far out as Shepherdstown. I was living in Shepherdstown during the Peace Summit between Israel and Syria that was held there. I performed music for Israeli diplomats during that summit.

Anyway, considering my family background in human rights and civil rights, I think it's not too surprising that I would tend to put my faith in Jewish human rights organizations much sooner than I would in the Israeli government (or any government for that matter) or anyone who is promoting the agenda of the Israeli government. After all, as Rabbi Sol himself has pointed out, George Wallace was once a pivotal figure in the US government. And I share the Rabbi's opinion that the US is well rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:41 PM

jeez CarolC, don't you think you might be posing questions that would cross a Rabbi's eyes? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:48 PM

BTW, Martin, Jews have been living in, and making important contributions to the US South since before there was a United States:

"The congregation Mickve Israel was the first synagogue established in the state of Georgia. The synagogue was founded by forty-two Jewish settlers who had arrived in Savannah from London on July 11, 1733. This establishment was created only five months after James Ogelthorpe founded the new colony in Georgia. In 1790, the state of Georgia granted the congregation a charter, confirming that the synagogue was the third oldest Jewish congregation in the United States."

Congregation Mickve Israel Synagogue

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

I don't know, Metchosin. I hope not ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:26 PM

On the subject of the '67 war:

Le Monde, June 3, 1972...

"All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered in our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilisation of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."

--General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff


Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972...

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger."

--General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank


New York Times, August 21, 1982...

"In June l967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

--Menachem Begin


And this from Holocaust survivor and Israeli Jew, Israel Shahak:

I myself well remember how (before I was "in opposition") the necessity of war with was explained to me and others a year before the 1956 war, and the necessity of conquering "the rest of Western Palestine when we will have the opportunity" was explained in the years 1965-67.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: mg
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:25 PM

Yes, you did make demeaning referrals about people who live in trailer parks. It is not worthy of a civilized person to do that. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:32 PM

I was living in Shepherdstown during the Peace Summit between Israel and Syria that was held there. I performed music for Israeli diplomats during that summit

A summit that went nowhere fast because the Syrians walked out.

George Wallace was once a pivotal figure in the US government.

I know that George Wallace was in Alabama state government for many years. And he did run as a third party candidate for president. But, I don't recall that he was ever any kind of figure, let alone pivotal, in the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:53 PM

SOL ZELLOR

Carol said "Nigger" in quotes, asking if you were using "Palestinian the way others have used the "N" word. You responded to that with references to trailer parks and George Wallace. What are we to think?

C-Watch I think what Carol said could be more accurately phrased

George Wallace was once a pivotal figure in US national politics.

I don't think that affects her meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:58 PM

I know that George Wallace was in Alabama state government for many years. And he did run as a third party candidate for president. But, I don't recall that he was ever any kind of figure, let alone pivotal, in the US government.

My meaning, and I suppose it would be a better way for me to phrase it, is that he was a povotal figure in government in the US. I did not mean to imply that he ever served in the federal government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:00 PM

Cross-posted with JtS ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:31 PM

Carol; I am curious. Would you happen to remember which songs you performed for the Israeli diplomats at Shepherdstown ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:05 PM

All kinds, Rabbi Sol. But they were mostly instrumentals I think, although I'm pretty sure I remember Madeline MacNeil singing some beautiful songs. I was playing the recorder along with about a dozen other musicians who were playing all kinds of instruments such as hammered dulcimers, lap dulcimers, fiddles, guitars, a cello, a lute, an upright bass, a flute, penny whistles, harmonicas... I'm sure I'm forgetting some. And we had some really good musicians there, including Sam Rizzetta and Ralph Gordon, both formerly of the group, Trapezoid, and Madeline, and others that most people have probably not ever heard of. This took place at O'Hurley's General Store, where I used to attend the weekly jam sessions. We held a special concert/jam session in honor of the people in town for the summit.

We used to play mostly British Isles and Appalachian folk music, with other kinds of traditional music mixed in and the odd unclassifiable piece here and there. The one that everyone, especially the Israeli diplomats liked the best though, was "Music For a Found Harmonium". I can't remember the name of the guy who wrote that piece. Anyway, we kept playing it over and over, and keep in mind that there were at least four or five hammered dulcimer players there, and every time we played it, we sped it up just a little bit.

The Israelis started stomping their feet and clapping in time to the music, and some of them were dancing in front of the huge walk-in fireplace (the building was an historic re-creation of a post and beam great-room from maybe the late 1700s to early 1800s, so it was a really beautiful setting). We kept playing faster and faster, and they clapped and stomped louder and louder, and the people danced faster and faster. It was really magical.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:18 PM

22 posts to this thread out of 73 so far CarolC.

You're winning the post race on this and put a lot of time into it, with so far as I can tell, zero effect on the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

You're just jealous that you weren't at that concert/jam session.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:45 PM

Carol. You just mentioned one of my absolute favorite performers, Madeline MacNeil. I first saw her 30 years ago when she was a regular at Skyland Lodge up in Shenandoah National Park. I still have the photo I took of her that night. What a beautiful voice she has. I purchased her album entitled "Soon It's Gonna Rain". On it she sings "The Keel Row". I have the same song by the famous opera Diva from New Zealand, Kiri Ti Kanawa. I think that Madeline beats her any day of the week both, as far as range of voice and style of presentation. It is a pity that Kiri earns more money for one concert than Madeline can earn in 5 years. Do you have any idea where I can contact her ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:14 AM

I can certainly find out for you Rabbi Sol. She used to occasionally attend our jam sessions and I'll bet she still goes there even now. She is a very, very sweet and kind lady with an equally sweet voice and vocal presentation. And she's an excellent hammered and lap dulcimer player as well. I'll get back to you with that info in a PM when I get it.

How's that for an interesting change of pace? We've turned a political thread into a musical one.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:23 AM

If Ronald Reagan was alive today he would say "Mr. Sharon, build up that wall".

Rabbi Sol:   You are only halfway there with Carol C.   So far she has only used the "N" word on you.   You haven't achieved complete victory until she calls you "Hitler" or a "nazi".    One or two more e-mails and she will be there.

Jack-   you are right.   Just using the "N" word dosn't make you a racist.   Only if you are a conservative and use the "N" word.   Just ask Senator Byrd who used the term on national TV with no repercussions as opposed to Trent Lott.

Oh yes- I forgot.   You need qualifications of visiting Israel to discuss this subject on this forum.   My wife did a 2 week Hadassah mission in Isreal a few months ago which included a tour and lunch at an army base where she watched some military operations.   Does that count? Also met with the chief surgeon of Hadassah hospital which treats 90% of terror victims- both jewish and arab along with PR directors of Israel.   I don't recall her mentioning anyone named Carol C. on the mission.

As far a land debates go- when did Palestinians become a country and have legally assigned land.   Did I miss this.   Do they have a constitution, a currency, an electrion process, a un ambassador, a history of leadorship.   They have as much right to the land as Al Queda has.   Well- at least Al Queda has a hierarchy of command.   Do the palestinians have a # 2 behind Arafat? Does he try harder?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:41 AM

Al Queda = palestinians = hates Israel = hates Jews = hates everything American except a couple lost soul sympathisers in a trailer in rural alabama.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM

Larry K, it was you who started with the Hitler comparisons in this post of yours:

"Hitler was certainly justified because everyone knew for a fact that Jews were at fault.    People like Carol C. who support these positions are responsible for millions of people getting killed."

http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1188455

...and this was my response:

"Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:21 PM

...Very insidious, but not too clever. You can't link me with people who support the acts of Hitler by putting those sentences next to each other. We both know that there is no justification for what Hitler did. But I will say that your rhetoric sounds very reminiscent of Hitler's rhetoric in tone and substance. You're taking Hitler's basic premises and substituting the words "islamic fundamentalists" for "Jews". It's that sort of mindset that causes the slaughter of millions of innocent people."

Looks like you can dish it out, but you can't take it.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 12:08 PM

...and I've been called every kind of awful thing imaginable as well as being told to "burn in hell with Osama bin Laden" by people here in the Mudcat, who hate anyone who doesn't share your, and their hatred of all things Arab and Palestinian. So don't get all puffed up with righteous indignation witn me, you small, small man.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 12:53 PM

If Ronald Reagan was alive today he would say "Mr. Sharon, build up that wall".

And I would be right there with him saying, Mr. Sharon, build up that wall... on the Green Line

Oh yes- I forgot.   You need qualifications of visiting Israel to discuss this subject on this forum.

Bullshit.

My wife did a 2 week Hadassah mission in Isreal a few months ago which included a tour and lunch at an army base where she watched some military operations.   Does that count? Also met with the chief surgeon of Hadassah hospital which treats 90% of terror victims- both jewish and arab along with PR directors of Israel.

It only counts if you're only interested in knowing what life is like from the Israeli side of the equation. Like I said before... if you want to know what it's like to be a Palestinian living in the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem, you need to listen to what those people have to say.

I don't recall her mentioning anyone named Carol C. on the mission.

She probably wouldn't find the name Neta Golan on the mission either. That's because she actually spends time with Palestinian families in the West Bank. In fact, she lives there.

"It's My Story: From Rosedale to Ramallah - Neta Golan's story
Neta Golan is a young Canadian Jewish woman who has crossed over to the other side of the Middle East conflict.

Neta's family emigrated to Israel from a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood of Rosedale in Toronto when she was nine. Her father told her "Israel is our only country now". She once shared her family's attitudes towards Arabs as obstacles to a greater Israel. Then Neta Golan began to change her way of seeing the Palestinians. She helped launch the International Solidarity Movement, an organisation that uses peaceful means to protect Arab rights and protest against the occupation of Palestine. Neta now lives permanently in the West Bank. She's married a Palestinian and in the spring of this year she gave birth to her first child.

Neta Golan is blunt in her appraisal: Israel has never come to terms with the Holocaust and the failure to do so means that history repeats itself save it is the Palestinians who are oppressed and murdered. Under the guise of the Oslo accords, Israel has been building dozens of new settlements in the West Bank, all of them mini-recreations of European ghettos: walled communities surrounded by hostile territory. But the difference, she says, is that it is the Jews who are choosing to create these 'new ghettos,' rather than being forced into them by European anti-Semitism. Her views and the frankness with which she delivers them have made Neta a target of hate among right wing Israelis."


As far a land debates go- when did Palestinians become a country and have legally assigned land.   Did I miss this. Do they have a constitution, a currency, an electrion process, a un ambassador, a history of leadorship.

Israel has no constitution either. Never has had one. This is nonesense. There was a time when Jews had never had any of these things either. It's bullshit to say that just because they've never had them, they should never be allowed to have them.

They have as much right to the land as Al Queda has.   Well- at least Al Queda has a hierarchy of command.   Do the palestinians have a # 2 behind Arafat? Does he try harder?

There you go with your nasty comparisons again. There is no similarity whatsoever between Al Queda and the people whose families have been living and making their livlihood on the land that is now the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem for more than a thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 12:56 PM

Please CarolC, go to Palestine. Be their hero. Be their leader. Help Hamas. Get eaten by a camel.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:10 PM

Martin, I can't go there. There are many reasons for this. One of them is that I have some fairly debilitating health problems that would make me more of a burden than a help to the families with whom I would be staying. They don't need me to be a drain on their already profoundly inadequate resources.

But what I can do, in my own small way, is to help direct people's attention to the words of those who have gone there. We each make whatever contribution we can, and that's the best I can do. From my perspective, it's a lot better than doing nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:40 PM

Carol C- As Ronald Reagan would say "There you go again".    I feel incredibly proud.   Rabbi Sol sent you 15 e-mails and all he got was the "n" word.   In just one e-mail got from you that "your rhetoric sounds very much like Hitlers rhetoric"   As I said before, I don't feel completely satisfied or victorious until you call me a nazi.

Thank you so very much.   I am on my way to Home County Folk Festival in London in an hour, and I don't know that I would have slept well all weekend unless I knew you compared me with a nazi.   This will make the festival so much more enjoying.   I would like up a victory cigar but I don't smoke.

I don't hope you burn in hell.    First, I don't believe in Hell. Second, I think you do our side much more good.   Any sane person laughs at you.   And you take it so seriously.    I suspect I could get you to call me a nazi any time I want to.   After a while it just gets boring playing you like a cheap fiddle.   Pull the string and get the expected response.   

The main point of tweaking you is that you get more and more irrational and therefore, more usefull in convincing thinking peope what side is correct.   I quote you often to moderates and liberals.   The general reaction is that I am making this stuff up.   I then show them the quotes.    The reaction is one of disgust and amazement.    There is nothing that I can say that is more helpful to my side than in showing people your quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:49 PM

Let me address the issue of making a difference.   In West Bloomfield Michigan the local hadassah chapter makes dolls that are donated to local hospitals.   These are used for children patients in a number of ways.   The children can show the doctor where the dolls hurt and the doctor can show on the doll what is going to be done.   The children decorate the dolls and take them home with them.   IN the past 8 years they have donated 35,000 dolls to virtually every hospital in Southeast Michigan.

My wife brought 60 dolls with her to Hadassah hospital to donate.   This brought the nurses to tears.   She than organized another group 2 months later to bring them an additional 300 dolls.    Based on this success, she has decided to organize a national doll project to other hadassah groups around the country.   She has 3-4 that have already started this and another 3-4 considering it.

Will this bring peace to the middle east.   Probably not.    But it does make the world a little better.   Rhetoric on this forum may be entertaining but does very little for anyone in the middle east.

I am very much beyond "dishing it out" or "taking it".   People saying that can't get past themselves and do little for anyone else. I abosutely could care less what you call me.   Other than an occational chuckle (as opposed to Bobert who is down right hilarious and I suspect doesn't take himself nearly as seriously) your words have little effect on me or I suspect anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 02:02 PM

Like I said, Larry K, you can dish it out, but you can't take it. You are the one who brought up the subject of Nazis by comparing me to them. Maybe you enjoy being compared to a Nazi (though for the life of me, I can't understand why) but most of the rest of us do not enjoy it.

Now a lesson on hatred...

The "n" word, is a bad word because of hatred and the demeaning effect that it has on the people who are called by that word.

It is hatred and the demeaning of human beings that is bad. The only thing that is bad about any words like that one is their use in service to hatred.

If someone puts the word "nigger" (in quotation marks) in a sentance to show that the same hatred that lies behind that word also lies behind words that are used against other groups of people, that is not in service to hatred. That is an attempt to dispell hatred. I don't expect you to understand this distinction since you, yourself, are so blinded by hatred.

However, I did ask the Rabbi if it was his intention to come across sounding like he was promoting hatred. That is a courtesy that neither you, nor any of the other people who have been calling me things like "terrorist sympathizer", "Palestinian sympathizer (that really does sound an awful lot like "nigger lover"), and all of the other colorful expressions you and others have used to try to project your own hatred of others onto me.

On the subject of your other points, I'm guessing you show them things out of the context of the conversation, so it doesn't surprise me at all that you get the reaction you do. I wonder what sort of reaction you would get if you showed the entire context. However, I don't expect to change the world all by myself. I just follow my conscience, and hope for the best. That's all I can do. It works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 02:03 PM

I am very much beyond "dishing it out" or "taking it".

I don't believe this for a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:35 PM

From the keyboard of Larry K.

Jack-   you are right.   Just using the "N" word dosn't make you a racist.   Only if you are a conservative and use the "N" word.   Just ask Senator Byrd who used the term on national TV with no repercussions as opposed to Trent Lott.


Larry K. you are wrong, I didn't say any of those things. For your information, I do not believe if asking if someone meant "Nigger" is racist at all, especially if one is expecting an honest answer, as I know Carol was in this case. Larry, lets you and me make a deal, we'll speak for ourselves and not for each other.

I have every confidence that you can get people to call you a Nazi, I suspect to do so would in some way require acting like one. If you can get people to call you a NAZI by acting like say Ghandi, that would be impressive.

You also seem to have an awful lot to say to Carol considering that you claim not to care what she thinks of you. Perhaps you should try to become a little more self aware. I'm certainly looking forward to the time when your actions match your words.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:40 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

I am starting to like and respect you, at first I thought you were trying to take things to the same gutter that Martin Gibson likes to inhabit. I am please to see that I misjudged you. You have been civil and thoughtful. Please accept my hand in friendship

Rob Dale

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:15 PM

Hey! this one has turned into an all out double teamed arguement coming from the trailer in rural Alabamy. Carol C. and Jack the sailor got a shot-gun at each window and they are both shooting blanks!

Larry K. your post was so right on! What a Mudcat hero you are!

Rabbi Sol, watch out for that olive branch. They'll both jump on their same cause again in a day or 2.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:45 PM

Rob, Being somewhat new to this forum, I do not know much about Martin Gibson, other than that he is a fellow Jew, and that means alot
to me. We have a very long history of being a persecuted people. Yes, I know that we are not alone in this regard. African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, and more recently Muslims have laid claim to the same fact. With some it is a matter of economics as in the haves vs. the have nots. However, with us, we are singled out for persecution for one reason, and one reason alone; because we are Jews. From the time of the Greek & Roman Empires, through the Spanish Inquisition, progroms in Europe, up until the grand daddy of them all, Hitler's Holocaust, this has been the case. We come in all colors, races, and national origins and are united by one common denominator, our religion. Given our history it is quite natural that some of us may have a chip on our shoulder. Also, some of us have a thicker skin than others and a higher boiling point. My wife and I have both had close family that perished in the Holocaust as well as family members that survived Auschwitz. I have also had close friends that were killed in the recent hostilities in Israel. I grew up as a child in this country experiencing much prejudice and for a while after I was married, I lived in the NYC Borough of Staten Island, which can rival any area of the deep south when it comes to Jew hatred. I have been able to develop a thick skin when I hear certain statements and think carefully before I respond to them. If I feel the author of those statements is trying to be civil and logical, I will do likewise. On the other hand, If I feel that the author of those statements is coming out of the gutter, I am not above getting my hands dirty to respond in kind. In order to have a clear understanding of the issues, we first have to develop a mutual respect for each other as human beings. With this thought in mind Rob, I am willing to accept your hand in friendship. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:36 PM

Rabbi, I judge you on who you are and how you act toward me. If it makes you feel better my anscestors had no part in persecuting your's and my uncles fought the Nazis. History is history, I have had no part in what has gone before. I don't think more or less of a man because he shares a religion or a skin colour with me. I don't see how anything a man's anscestors have done excuses him for saying abusive things. Martin Gibson may or may not be a Jew, but he certainly is a jerk.

You and I have differences on what might be the right way to have peace in the Middle East, I understand your point of view. Since you are not saying hateful things, I don't see much point in discussing the matter more than we have. God Bless You and may we all find peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,Dylan
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 04:02 AM