Origins: Culloden Moor.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Patricia
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 07:50 PM

I have sent you photo - hope it goes through. I have been tying to find out if John Croall is still alive - I think Mike passed on a few years back.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 09:38 PM

Hi Pat, I will make a video for it and link when I get a chance (I'll credit all parties, record company publishers etc. so Youtube can link it to owners ( It's usually ok on a small scale as long as no copyright owning shareholder objects and no outside claims are made). It wasn't so much a contact for John Croall, I just wanted to know who he was/is? Just to fill in the biographical gap. Then who was Mike? Ah well we've solved one out of the three. Thanks for your help. If you can send me a picture of Mike John and Sandy in the next week, I'll include it in the video. My e-mail is above.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Patricia
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 06:47 PM

No, I do not have contact info for John Croall. I would love to hear Culloden Moor - I have no way of playing it - so if you are able to put it up on Youtube I think folks would love to hear it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 07:40 PM

Patricia I should have said if you want to send a picture to me I
can be contacted at [e-mail]. Ironically, I have just been working on transferring my father's simple 1970 recording of Culloden Moor to digital.   My brother played on it though, and is not keen on early primitive sounding raw recordings from vinyl being made public, when he now makes great productions. So it may stay with me..and not go up anywhere.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 07:27 PM

Hi Patricia. I now have a pretty good idea about Alexander (Sandy), Banks (sorry to hear of his passing), but do you know anything about John Croall, the co-writer, and also specifically the story of the song Culloden Moor? It is a lovely song, ( even if a bit over the top in 60's brass) which I might try and get someone else to cover sometime. I was tempted to shove it on 'Youtube', but don't want to do so without consent - also this is someone's voice and everyone has family. I always credit everyone including publishers, writers, artists and record company. The B- side is up, but not the main A-Side. For a Scottish artist to get a single recorded by a big English record company was quite an achievement. The song Culloden Moor, is of course in copyright and belongs to Universal Music, John Croall and Alexander Banks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 06:44 PM

Hi, Patricia - if you want photos or sound files posted, send them to me, [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Patricia Banks
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 04:21 PM

Well, I tried to post a photo but it didn't work! It's of Mike, John and Sandy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Patricia Banks
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 04:19 PM

I was reading this thread - very interesting. My husband was Alexander Banks and in going through old photos have come across a couple of Mike, John and Sandy. We also have a recording at Mobey Dick's as well as a few 45 recordings.

IMG_3712.JPG

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 03 May 21 - 07:24 PM

Thanks for that Guest. Sorry to hear of Sandy's recent passing, though nice to finally see his face. His son left a comment on the youtube video of 'Cruel War'. Some years back, I tracked down the two producers on the 1966 Polydor single, and neither of them could remember anything about the group.   With the song Culloden Moor - the family rep. should contact Universal Music who own the rights. They are unlikely to know where to send any royalties if the song is ever re-discovered, covered or re-released. Neither Sandy or John Croall the other writer were members of the PRS/MCPS so any future money from songs would likely go into a void. The song 'Culloden Moor' will be in copyright for another 70 years! Technically, the reps of Mike, John and Sandy could claim the rights back to any recordings (ownership reverts back to the group after 50 years from publication, if nobody is doing anything with them).

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 21 - 11:54 AM

https://www.hemauerfuneralhome.com/obituary/Alexander-Banks

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 02 May 21 - 06:13 PM

Can I have some biog. details, on your uncle Alexander Banks guest, and any other members of the group? This is a link for the B-Side of the Culloden Moor single.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDr_q3rdULs

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 May 21 - 11:36 AM

FWIW, Unnamed GUEST, there is no enlightenment to the conversation when you drop in with that "he was my uncle" tidbit then don't say anything about it. Might as well have not said anything. We all have family.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 21 - 04:12 PM

Alexander ‘Sandy’ Banks was my Uncle :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Dukowski83
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:19 PM

For what it is worth I have a 10" record released by Mike, John and Sandy from around about 1964 pressed through the Craighall pressing plant. Most songs are credited as either trad or attributed to John Croall with the exception of a Woody Guthrie cover. The record is titled 'at Moby Dick's' which I have always assumed was a pub or hostelry in Edinburgh around that time. I also have another 45 also pressed at Craighall on the Lothian label with four tracks by John Croall (which one I am not sure) from around 1965 so similar vintage to the Polydor single (which I also own). I've been trying to learn whether or not a Steve Croall who released 2 45s in Sweden in the late 1960s was related in anyway as he was Scottish as far as I can make out. Seem to have been quite a few Croalls around the folk scene at the time

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:59 PM

Thanks Grockle. Officially the A- side was Culloden Moor, I now own a copy myself. You can find this single listed on a couple of 45 discography sites. Mike, John and Sandy appeared with Jimmy Shand on a few BBC radio broadcasts in the 60's and then disappear, after just 1 single. You can pick this up second hand on the Internet, though nobody has Youtubed the single yet.

There is a heavy 60's brass on it, due to the arranger being a jazz musician. I can't think where my father got his arrangement from, as there are slight lyric changes which make mew think he heard a cover.

It is extremely obscure, and there are other tunes (including a jazz one) called Culloden Moor which are not this work.

Even the record's 2 Polydor producers who were still around, didn't remember who the act were!

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Grockle
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:18 PM

I bought the Polydor single when a student at the University of Edinburgh after hearing the trio play a set at a uni event, although my recollection is that "Cruel War" was the A side. My understanding was that Mike, John and Sandy were at that time students at the university, and I had assumed John and Sandy were Messrs Croall and Banks -- which may still be 50% correct.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM

Glad you've managed to find out a bit more. Sorry if the JC from JTB was not the one. It is in fact a commoner name than you might think: Google throws up quite a few John Croalls, as does Facebook: near the top of the list is a firm of undertakers in Edinburgh!

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:20 PM

Universal Music/Dick James Music only have the same information I have on this song. The publishers have given me the earliest date of known copyright for the Scottish folk song 'Culloden Moor' by Croall/Banks as 1965. At least I have reached a conclusion of sorts after starting a query in 2004.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 02:23 PM

Just to confirm that after a reply from John M. Croall, folk musician and J. T's Bairns former member - he did not write the song 'Culloden Moor'.

However, the PRS/MCPS database has mixed him up with another John Croall who is part credited with the song.

There are also dozens of trad. arrangements of songs and instrumentals recorded by J.T.s Bairns that are registered or part registered to the modern Mr. Croall, and as a non-PRS member I don't think he knew anything about them.

So it seems to be that the PRS computer system, has mixed the two parties up - given them the same code number and put an 'M' in the original Mr. Croall's name making them one in the same party when they are not.

Complicated isn't it? Based on the MCPS/PRS registration information I put John M. Croall on the credits of a youtube video, rather than just John Croall.

I might try publishers Universal Music and see if they have any info.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 03:06 AM

Thanks AR, but I am only trying to research this song about Culloden - which crosses over between trad. folk and pop music. Many old songs exist in old Scots or regional dialect on the subject. This is more recent than many, and very melodic, which is why a major record company made it the A side of a single - so I am trying to give credit and archive the story of this modern song for posterity before it gets lost in the mists of time. Of course there are many worthy songs that have been written, and are still being written, on Jacobites and Culloden...but I am only researching this two and a half minute song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:36 PM

This might be of interest - Lizzie Higgins singing 'The Muir o' Culloden':

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/66020/2

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:05 PM

Here are the words to the song in two variations the dash represents an instrumental hook and phrasing space:

CULLODEN MOOR
JOHN CROALL/ALEXANDER BANKS (UNIVERSAL MUSIC/DICK JAMES PUB.)

There's a field in our homeland we call Culloden Moor.
And there the finest of our men are laid in graves so poor.
Where suddenly one morning, their freedom was no more.
We will aye remember ______ Culloden Moor.


In the year of '45 we never shall forget,
our young Prince marched down to York
and Cumberland he met.
Had they fought there they might have won,
but his men were tired of war.
So back they marched to Scotland,
and Culloden Moor.

The foe approached at dead of night, their powder it was dry.
Our men and horses lay asleep, as dawn rose in the sky.
A misty morn, a fateful dawn, too soon the battle's o'er.
The hopes of Scotland shattered _____ on Culloden Moor.
_____ ____________________________--- On Culloden Moor.

As recorded by Mike, John and Sandy on 1966 Polydor single A-side

This variation as recorded by Stewart Ross on 1970 LP.

There's a field in our homeland we call Culloden Moor,
and there the flower of Scotland's youth, lay dead in graves so poor.
Where suddenly one morning, our manhood was no more.
We will aye remember, dark Culloden Moor.

'Twas in the year of '45 we never shall forget.
Our brave Prince road down to York, and Cumberland he met.
Had they fought there they might have won,
but his men were tired of war.
So back they came to Scotland, and Culloden Moor.


The foe approached at dead of night, their powder it was dry.
Our men and horses lay asleep, as dawn broke in the sky.
A misty morn that fateful day, too soon the battle's o'er.
The hopes of Scotland shattered, on Culloden Moor.

Yes, there's a field in our homeland, we call Culloden Moor.
And there the flower of Scotland's youth, lay dead in graves so poor.
Where suddenly one morning, our manhood was no more.
We will aye remember, dark Culloden Moor.
We will aye remember, dark Culloden Moor.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:24 PM

Alan, it could well - age-wise - be the same John Croall. Guess the one I'm thinking of is about the same age as me -pushing 3 score and ten, so would have been "Blithe and merry" in 1970. As I said, try Greentrax as some of the JTB recordings went out via that stable.
Here's one of Jock Tamson's Bairns' recordings which features both John C and Rod Paterson on vocals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxq1-UWGkBI

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:40 PM

Nigel Gatherer has a large database of performers, composers etc on his website -- - - worth checking?

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:12 PM

Lovely song, Jim. I know it's been popular. Obviously a different work on the related theme.   The problem is all these songs that have similar titles "Drumossie" "Culloden" "Culloden Moor"... and of course when people write instrumentals about the Battle of Culloden they give them similar titles as well. My father wrote a hackneyed pot boiler of a song for the Tartan Lads called "Bonnie Charlie".. think of how many Charlie songs or arrangements of trad. songs are around with that one.

It can be a nightmare trying to correctly attribute works, which is why many people just stick trad. on them. Not that anybody much bothers on youtube or downloads - songwriters are mostly forgotten on credits.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:41 PM

I wrote this song called Drumossie Moor or Culloden way back in the 1960s. Alastair McDonald sang it but I produced the LP and wrote this song.

Drumossie Moor

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:19 PM

Thanks. It's taken me decades to get an answer to this query, and I felt bad that the record company put the work down as trad. in 1970.

I love the 1966 single that I just picked up of Mike, John and Sandy singing this song for Polydor. The lyrics my father sang made my sister laugh in one place where there is a line that "Our manhood was no more". Double entendre territory.   In the 1966 single the line is "their freedom was no more".

Can the John Croall be the same - as this is mid 60's stuff? It's worth putting in a folk database as confusion has arisen in the past with singers and instrumentalists recording works of similar title. Universal Music/Dick James Music are registered as owning it.

Who were Mike, John and Sandy? I found that they took part in BBC radio programmes, a bit like Robin Hall and Jimmie MacGregor. That's all I know. Presumably that's how they got a contract with Polydor.   

I don't know what Mr. Croall would make of my father's tenor singing (it's like marmite). Unfortunately he never got full backing or production. If I had tracked down the original master tape for this song I would dub on backing vocals mandolin and whistle, but not to be. I got the rights back to the album so just put it on youtube for fun.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 03:30 PM

John Croall was a member of the group, Jock Tamson's Bairns. Sadly the loss of both Derek Hoy and Ian Hardie (both fiddlers) within months of each other has severely reduced the group. Rod Paterson is the one of the fine singers, and John played whistles and bodhran and also sang if I remember rightly. And, as far as i know, he is still alive and kicking. I don't have any contact details for him but you could possibly try Greentrax recordings: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:41 PM

I enjoyed the YouTube recording, Alan. Any chance you might like to post the lyrics?
Thanks.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:24 AM

Here is a link to my father's simple accordion backed recording

https://youtu.be/vZMuFnKpdb8

The words in Mike, John and Sandy's version have one or two variations.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:16 AM

After decades if searching I have finally tracked down the correct authors and composers of this lovely song. I much prefer it to the miserable dirge that is 'ghosts of Culloden'.

The song Culloden Moor was written by a John Croall and Alexander Banks.   A 1966 single was made for Polydor by a Mike, John and Sandy, with brass and female backing (doing the oohs in countermelody). The fact that this was recorded by a major English record company as the A-side shows that it was rated as a good commercial folk song.

My late father Stewart Ross recorded a version in 1970, but the record company didn't trace the true authors (no computers then). Culloden Moor is such a common title, that even the MCPS and PRS are mixing up their registrations and some instrumentals have been put down to the authors of this song. And I'm sure the authors of the song had a few Trad. credits go on their work.

Does anybody have any information about Mike, John and Sandy or John Croall.

Subject: RE: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross.
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:37 PM

sorry, mistyped part of the lyric.

"There's a field in our homeland we call Culloden Moor - and there the flower of Scotland's youth lay dead in graves so poor"....

Subject: Origins: Culloden Moor.
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:26 PM

I'm looking to trace the authorship of a pre1970's song called 'Culloden Moor'.   It may well be in copyright and I really want to give due credit to the person who wrote it.   The problem is that the copyright organisations have a few works published which may or may not be the same song. Some of the publishers don't have copies of the song for me to compare.   
The song lyrics start "There's a field in our homeland we call Culloden Moor, and there the flower of Scotland's youth were laid in graves so poor.....We will aye remember dark culloden moor. Copyright owner to be confirmed.

Could anybody out there familar with Scottish music help. It's a short song and sounds like it's a 20th century song. Nice melody though the words are a bit naive on the truth about the participants in the battle of Culloden and the actions that day.