|
Subject: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: GUEST,Mellie Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:48 PM Hello everybody, this is my first post. I've been reading your threads for a few weeks now. I belong to a Catholic Church Choir and we sing Missa Contata's. Gregorian Chant and songs like Byrd's "Ave Verum". I've been in the choir for a year now and havent been able to get voice lessons yet. Yesterday a fellow chorester(sp) pointed out to me that I needed to learn how to scale the notes probperly, because when I go from one low note to another lower note I'm not really going down. Does anyone have any advice on how I can scale the notes properly? Any advice would be most appreciated. Thank you. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:11 PM Talk to your choir director about this. The other chorister could be wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Willa Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:19 PM Hi, Mellie Welcome to Mudcat. You'll find plenty of good advice here. These two links might be of some use. (Scroll down to the messages on the threads). thread.cfm?threadid=68347#1151545 thread.cfm?threadid=72364#1255801 Alice Flynn usually responds to questions of this type, and will probably reply to you- keep checking mudcat. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: M.Ted Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:41 PM Sometimes, when you go from one note to another, the notes should really go up;-) But seriously, your first step, rather than asking here, (which, don't get me wrong you are very, very, welcome to do), would be to ask the chorister who spoke to to tell you where, in what song, you were going the wrong way, and, perhaps, to show you how to do it properly-- My guess is that the other chorister's observation is right-- Having sung and played in ensembles, I know that often, this sort of comment is made only after the hearer has heard the problem occur on a number of occasions, and that usually, the hearer has deliberated on the appropriateness of the comment, and, frequently has talked about the problem with others who have encouraged them to say something. Rather than take offense, you should remember that anyone who takes time to help you correct a mistake is really helping you (and the ensemble) to get better-- |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Don Firth Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM Terminology. I've had lots of singing lessons, in addition to three years at the University of Washington School of Music and another two years studying music and music theory at Cornish School of the Arts, and I've never heard the expression "to scale notes." Singing scales, playing scales, writing scales, yes. But not "scaling notes." Is this chorister telling you that you are not singing on pitch or singing the wrong notes? Can you explain precisely what this person was talking about? Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Bob Bolton Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:42 PM G'day Mellie, This is a suggestion not coming from an experienced chorister (it's a very long time sing I sang in school choirs ... and then went off in other directions) but I suggest that modern technology has some handy uses. When I'm checking the range and "best key" of some folk song I'm (say .. ) transcribing for the music session I coordinate ... or intending to publish in the Bush Music Club's magazines Mulga Wire / Singabout I sing through the song to an electronic tuning meter. That gives me the range and key in which I sing ... and, mutatis mutandis, suggests the key I'll publish in. Now, I've seen such 'tuning' meters applied to teaching instrumentalists to strike the exact pitch on such things as reeds and woodwinds ... and it seems to me that the same can be done with singing pitch. If you keep the meter, switched on and held in (say) your left hand, you can monitor the note you are actually singing ... and see how much you (might) need to modify to strike the 'right' pitch. One (slight) caution: a cappella singing scales are usually not tied to the strict "tempered scales" of orchestral music - holding to 'pure' intervals. If it gets down to precise harmonic intervals, you may need a more specialised (spelled: more expensive) meter than the standard "chromatic tuner" that should start around US$20 - if you are in the US. There are meters that deal with the older, pre-tempered scales ... but I haven't worked with them. All just a suggestion - just checking yourself with a standard, cheap "chromatic tuner" will show you how well you are moving through the intervals of a standard scale ... and, as you acquire the skills of a chorister you should develop an ear for the intervals with the different parts being sung around you. Regards, Bob Bolton |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: mellie Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM Thank you all for your comments! I'm sorry the "to scale notes" is my expression, I too quickly forgot exactly what my friend said to me and the expression came from what my poor memory saved. I took no offense from her as she has THE most beautiful voice (a popular opinion among us) in our choir and now she sits next to me almost every time where before she would never! I have not taken offense from any member of our choir and have been given tips before, for example "sing a little softer until you're more familiar with the piece". HA! The thing is is that I'm passionate about this music!! We have a new director (1 year)who is brilliant but always busy. I do ask him questions now and then...,only really, I should take voice lessons and I will, I found someone but she needs to fit me in sometime? I love this website,because I have picked-up some great tips from your threads. I'm going to visit the links and I'm sure I can afford the chromatic tuner so I'll let you know how it goes...,thanks again, Mellie p.s.The place my friend pointed out to me was on the 11th section or page4, last section of Byrd's Ave Verum, where it says mi se re (re)! that's the one I didn't go down far enough. It's a note with a line through the circle and another just above it through the bar. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: John in Brisbane Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:04 AM Mellie, as a guess I'd suggest that your choral colleague was suggesting you learn about the "intervals" between notes - the shortcuts that the brain uses to (ultimately) tell your voice where to move, eg an octave leap or fall OR a move of thirds or fifths. Don't worry if you don't know this stuff at the moment. EVERYONE has to learn. In the absence of lessons my best recommendation is to listen, listen, listen. If you can tape your choral part then give that a try. If you can punch out the notes on a piano (or know someone who can) then try that as well. In 2004 we're very fortunate to have a lot of choral repertoire on the Web in MIDI format and all modern(ish) PC's and Macs can play it back for you. You may have other ways of doing this as well. I've had a number of rehearsal occasions when my ear wouldn't work properly, regardless of genre - so please keep trying. Regards, John |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale note From: Mark Cohen Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:26 AM One additional suggestion would be to obtain access to a piano, or at the very least, to an inexpensive Casio-type keyboard. Then find a VERY basic music instruction book, and learn the notes of a C scale. Then plop yourself down in front of the piano and play a C scale, and sing along with it, very slowly, listening to each note. Then play and sing a second (C-D), a major third (C-E), a fourth (C-F), and a fifth (C-G), repeating each one several times, so you get the interval in your head and in your voice. Do this for no more than 10 minutes or so, but do it every day. You will be amazed at the difference it makes. After this, you can go on to other intervals and scales. But if you get that one scale down, and learn those basic intervals, you will be amazed at what a difference it can make in your singing. And while you have that basic music instruction book, it's a good idea to learn the basics of reading music. That way you can figure out that the note you're trying to reach is an A, rather than "a circle with a line through it and another just above it through the bar [actually the stem]," and you can say to your friend, "Can you help me figure out how to hit that low A in the last line?" What a kick! Aloha, Mark |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:19 AM I agree with Mark. Sounds like you may be harmonising at a 3rd or so above the note. Not out of tune and still in key but the wrong note for your particular section of the choir. If you look at some Soprano/Alto/Tennor/Bass (SATB) type music, usualy printed for choirs, you will see that the note your are singing is, more than likely, on the stave somewhere. I would hazard a guess that you may be singing the Soprano note while you should be singing the Alto? If the note you are singing is not there at all you have come up with another harmony which your new director may want to explore:-) Cheers Dave the Gnome |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale note From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:36 AM I think it's amazing the way we are able to sing at all, without the faintest idea (most of us) how we are doing it. I'm sure if I had to try to tell my voice mechanism how to go about making notes, I'd be struck dumb - like the story about the centipede who tried to work out which foot to move first. The only advice I can give is, make a point of listening to your own voice. The old finger behind the ear trick actually works that way - but I don't think that's seen too often in choirs. (It gets knocked enough when folkies do it, and gets put down as an affectation, which it ain't.) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: M.Ted Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM You should concentrate on listening to the woman with the beautiful voice who is next to you, and then, concentrate on matching the pitches that she is singing--she is not sitting next to you to be friendly, she is there because the choir director has asked her to be there-- You need to start concentrating--and the choir is trying to politely help you: >"sing a little softer until you're more familiar with the piece". HA! The thing is is that I'm passionate about this music!! Forget the "HA!..." and do what they say--if you are going to sing, you must learn to control your voice and you must learn to control your passion-- |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:33 PM Mark's suggestion is excellent. In fact, one of the Cornish School classes that I took (sight-reading and ear-training) spent a great deal of time having the students listen to and then sing specific intervals: half-steps, full steps, minor thirds, major thirds, etc., all possible combinations of notes. Once we had spent some time at that, the teacher would play a note on the piano and then say, "Sing a perfect fifth above this." Or a sixth, or a minor third below, etc. Great practice. I don't have absolute pitch, but if I want to sing a particular note, I can hit it pretty close and sometimes right on; just from practicing. But as a result of that class (taken forty years ago), I have excellent relative pitch. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: mellie Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:32 PM Thank you,thank you all very much! I'm going to make a print-out of this discussion and do my best to purchase books that can help me and do as much research as I can based on the information you've given me. I already practice my music faithfully and will continue to do so, your comments have given me a better direction and hopefully advantage as far as me making progress goes. One thing, there's no way anybody could've made her stand next to me not even the director! We're both altos and I happen to be brave enough to sing out,(I think I should be a soprano higher feels more normal). Not arrogant brave, just plain brave as in, "I want to do this right" brave,sometimes I would shake,but not anymore, from fear of singing wrong. You see, this music that we sing is very special,I consider it the Sacred Music of God and few people care to ever have it in our churches ever again. So it's very important to present it well. And there aren't enough skilled singers who care to belong to attend a Traditional Catholic Church or its choir, and most of us in the choir can't read music. But you should hear us, by the Grace of God we sound like Angels (sometimes!). Take care, Mellie |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:50 PM A warm welcome to Mudcat! I've sung in many choral groups ( and continue to sing in the Choral Arts Society of Washington. I think it's absolutely great that you're passionate about the music, and I'm sure nobody would want to dampen that enthusiasm. The Byrd Ave Verum Corpus seems to capture the flavor of the 16th century so well. Byrd, Tallis, and Vaughn Williams are my favorite English composers. The thing you have to do (and it's not necessarily easy) is to express your passion through singing the music as Byrd wrote it. That means you want to be as accurate as possible, while still feeling the music. I have the Ave Verum in front of me but it must be a different edition--the paging is different. As to not going down far enough in a particular passage in the Ave Verum, my advice would be to see if your friend with the beautiful voice, or another friend in the choir can play the piano and has a few minutes to sit down with you before or after rehearsal and play the passage you need to hear. She or he can play the passage on the piano a few times. You can listen, then sing it as your friend plays it (the friend should play it as slowly as you want, but in correct rhythm). If you do this a few times you will realize exactly how the music goes. If you can persuade your friend to play it as you sing it about 10-15 times, it should be engrained. You can check by singing it without the piano while your friend follows the written music. The rhythm is as vital as the notes. Reading music is essential as a long term solution (and fun!) Music theory is also useful--- (as is playing the piano at least a bit)--- and makes reading music easier, but this should get you through this problem. Although my group has sung in the Sistine Chapel, the Sorbonne, Red Square and the Royal Albert Hall (for the opening night of the Proms in 2002) among other places, I know I'm not perfect. If I have a question on a passage I sit down at my piano and do exactly what I've suggested you do . It works like a charm-- the important thing is engraining in your brain how the passage is supposed to sound--- so repetition is the key--the more times you do it right, the easier and more natural it will be. When you do get it, you can be confident as you sing, and that's an incredible high! Very few things are as satisfying as being in a group that's sounding wonderful. Good luck to you. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Peace Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:59 PM mellie, Sometimes singers have a two-fold problem: One is 'hearing' the notes they are hitting--and this happens often in choirs. The other is 'feeling' the 'place' or 'shape' of the vocal cords when certain notes are being 'hit' (or missed). I encountered the problem years ago, and a wonderful voice teacher named Julio Barocol (sp?) taught me some simple exercises to correct the problem. I am by no means a good singer, but I tend to get to the notes I want almost all the time. I would suggest some 'ear' training and paying special attention to what your throat is doing while you practise by yourself. I hope this is helpful, and if I have come across as 'talking down', such was not my intent. You'd maybe benefit from a few voice lessons, and I am confident you could take it from there. Bruce M |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Aug 04 - 11:06 PM Not only is it a "high", but it can lift you out of yourself and can be, in itself, a spiritual experience, making you realize how much more exists than just us. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: mellie Date: 31 Aug 04 - 11:23 PM Hello Ron and Bruce, Thank you for the advice. The copy I have says AVE VERUM William Byrd [from vol.II of Gradualia.] [1607]. I do feel the sentiment of this music...,Thanks to God! What has helped me a great deal is that I record our practice sessions and then listen to the song at least a hundred times before Sunday, so that has helped me at least to come in on time when I'm singing. I'm working very hard at tuning my ear to LISTEN because I thought I WAS listening before and it was pointed out to me that I was off pitch or off the note? Anyway, little by little I'm learning. I say our director is brilliant because he can make us sound lovely and like I said before most of us can't read music, but some of the others have the advantage that they hear their mistakes or they just can tell the difference in the notes better than I can. If we ever record our Mass over the internet I'll be sure to let you all know about it. Oh, also I can sing AVE VERUM CORPUS Josquin Des Pres+1521 (J.S.)very, very well. That's what happens-some songs I sing really well and others, even if I listen to them over and over I still can't get them!?! Best regards, Mellie |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale note From: hesperis Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM I used to play one line (usually soprano or bass) on piano and sing another one (usually alto). Very useful when you have to keep in tune to the other line without getting distracted by what they're doing! |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: DonMeixner Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM I usually just grab em by the tail and with the edge of a sharp filleting knife I flick them scales right off the side of the choir loft into the babtismal font. Don |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale note From: Burke Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM Some others have already suggested it, but I'd like to really encourage you to learn at least the basics of reading music. You may never be a great sight singer, but the more you understand the music you are looking at, the better member of your choir you will be. It will make it much easier to learn and remember the music. You will be able to come in on time without all the rote drill. You will also be able to better communicate your questions to your director & people in this forum. You will be able to follow along while listening. When you become aware of difficult parts, it will be easier to make little notes that help you out. I've sung in choirs since I was quite young. I always sang soprano & did not learn more than the very basics of reading music. There was very little additional teaching of reading music or sight singing as I went through school so most of my practical learning has been as an adult. I'm still not a great sight singer, but the more I understand the music, the easier it is to identify reasons for problems. Since you are devoting a lot of time to listening to your pieces, one thing you could try is just learning to follow the music as you listen to the recording. Do the same for hymns that you know by heart. Here are some links to help you get started: Introduction to Reading Music Some Music tutorials Music notation terms |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:10 AM Mellie-- Trying to learn a part from listening to a rehearsal tape is actually one of the hardest ways to learn it. It's so much easier if you sift out, not just the part, but the particular passage you're concerned with, and as I said, by far the best way to do this is to get to a piano and have a friend help you with it--by your listening to the piano several times, then singing the notes as the friend plays them, in rhythm, and finally doing it on your own, with the friend checking you (quite a few times, until the passage is engrained on your brain.) Then you can sing with confidence, and that's wonderful. Isn't there anybody in the group who can do this for you? (As several people have pointed out of course the long-term solution is to learn to read music---and it's actually fun!) Good luck to you, regardless of what you decide. Ron It's really impressive that you do Josquin--he's actually possibly harder than Byrd! |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:28 AM I sez " I would hazard a guess that you may be singing the Soprano note while you should be singing the Alto?" and Mellie then sez "We're both altos and I happen to be brave enough to sing out,(I think I should be a soprano higher feels more normal)" Am I good or wot;-) Cheers :D |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: What is the proper way to scale notes? From: mellie Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:15 PM Dave the Gnome, You were good! I just didn't know how to how to tell you,just kidding!...I know because one of the women in the choir, and friend of mine, who has been a choir director before told me so, but on the song I erred I wasn't trying to ignore my part it just happened. It's okay with me that I'm with the altos--there's only four of them so I think they need me. I guess I feel comfortable with the alto part for most of the songs it's just that I'm so tempted to sing the soprano part and so lately I have been doing so. Especially with some songs that I just can't go that low, and when I think I'm going as low as I should then the altos are looking at me as if I've done something terrible and EVEN telling me I'm singing the soprano part! for example, Ecce Panis Angelorum ,(Lauda Sion) Portuguese Melody Edited and Arr. by N.A.M. I just know that things are going to improve from my part with all of your generous thoughts and advice and last night at practice I actually asked permission to sing along with the sopranos on the descants and he allowed me to. He was very satisfied with our work and told us so. We were only four sopranos present when usually there's ten. Do you think he heard me? I was singing out, I wasn't holding back. Mellie P.S. Thank you so kindly for the links because it is time for me to invest some money into a good music and voice book because I have no plans to ever quit. |
| Share Thread: |
