Disservice to Folk Awards

Subject: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:52 AM

Nominations are invited, with reasons. I haven't got names for my three, I haven't done the research, but you get the idea.
1) Whoever had the idea of teaching children to sing "Strawberry Fair"(singing, singing, buttercups and daisies rifolrifol tolderiddleido etc)
2) Whover had the idea of teaching children to sing "Kumbayah"
3) Whoever wrote those words to "English Country Gardens"

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM

The advertising and media mogus get my vote! How long do they think that taking the piss out of folk music and morris dancing can be a valid cheap laugh?

As to number 3 on your list, Greg - depends which words.

How many crows can you pick from your nose...

Can't see anything wrong with it myself;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:15 AM

In the UK we have a pretend butter spread called 'Clover'. The advertising campaign shows happy families eating this stuff (churned for extra taste - churned with what?!) to the tune of 'The Wild Rover' (For we all love Clover, all over this land).

The person who chose that particular song for that particular spread should be put up against a wall and shot!

LTS

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:00 AM

Mulligan and O'hare.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:01 AM

Yes.

Sabine Baring-Gould was responsible for the rewrite of Strawberry Fair. It was not his most glorious moment.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:32 AM

2) The award could also fall into 'promoting the bland' category and Kumbaya might fall into the 'wanton excuses for harmony' genre. I sometimes joke about the song, but it still sounds great with a lot of voices. There are a lot of songs a lot of adults sing, wherever you may go that fit the bill. 'Wild Mountain Thyme' for one, but I still love singing that one too.

I was once waiting for a prescription in a pharmacy, and there was this little kid with a little fake record player toy. Every time he pushed a big plastic button, a wee traditional fiddle tune came out - mostly bouncy English ones. You have to wonder who designed it and give them credit for trying to slip a bit of trad music into the lives of toddlers. Somebody else might very well complain about it, but not me.

However...if I had a rifle and was a lot more vengeful (and slightly more insane) than I really am, that ice cream truck that plays 'Arkansas Traveller' over and over again would be lying in a ditch someplace, leaking melted treats out of every newly-created orifice.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:33 AM

Strangely enough, one C Sharpe comes to mind - he might have done much to save English Traditions (many of which have gone by the board since his day), but - did he have to clean them up? Was Cotswold morris quite so pretty - or should it be closer to Border?

Who can tell?

Who knows where the time goes?

epn

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:47 AM

Mulligan and O'Hare - ROTFLMAO! I'd forgotten about them, and Vic Reeve's Terry Wogan wig and protruding nipples.
"My roOOOooose has left me..."

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:49 AM

Jeri:


I LOVE your Revenge on the Ice Cream Truck!! Suits me !! LOL


A

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:52 AM

Terry Wogan - Floral Dance - dreadful

Sorry to mention it.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:55 AM

EPN will be thinking of C[ecil J] Sharp, presumably; C [K] Sharpe was an earlier collector (of Scottish song). A century on, we may regret the fact that many of the songs Sharp published were modified; but it was the only way he could get them printed for the general public, and the whole point was to get people singing them again. The texts as originally collected survive. He was a minor offender compared to many, and without his work and the influence it had on others many of us wouldn't even have heard of folk music; and those of us who had would have very little to talk about.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:05 AM

I have found it interesting to note over the years that what one listener (or fellow performer) will shoot you for, another will give you a medal for. The offence appears to be in the ear of the beholder.

And the icecream vans in Australia used to (haven't heard it for a long time) play "Greensleeves". Might almost be an improvement ... depends on your point of view!

Thoughtfully (for once),
Shimbo

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 03:49 PM

In my neighborhood the ice-cream van plays "Pop goes the weasel." Same idea, though. I often wonder how long I could last as an Ice-Cream Man before I would go insane.

I agree that Cecil Sharp was far more of a force for good than for bad. Other collectors have had far more negative effects.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 03:58 PM

greg,

I think these should be called the "Folk Dis!" awards. But that's just me...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM

Ice cream trucks here play "Turkey In The Straw" suitable punishment I guess for the dancing turkey I sent to Spaw's kids which howled the same tune.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Bert
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:53 PM

It's gotta go to "Martin Guitars". How many folkies have bought one and been morphed from a good old folkie into a big headed guitar prima donna? *GRIN*

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 08:23 AM

And what about "I can sing a rainbow" ?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 08:29 AM

Where???????

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 09:48 AM

How about anyone who sets themselves up as a critic, I am quite capable (as everyone else is)of forming my own opinion on a CD or performance without having someone else do it for me. On numerous occasions a CD I've bought I've later found to be slated by a critic, so much for their insight. They do a huge dis-service to performers (no... I have not myself produced a CD)
They are a collective plague upon the house of art in general and in this instance folk music in particular. They should be dealt with like any other pest and eradicated

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:47 AM

Ooops Naughty ........ the above Guest was me, don't hide behind Guest labels me !

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 05:20 PM

Chris Wood and Andy Cutting have done a great rescue job on their version of "An English Country Garden" - done as a tune on their Knock John album.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:01 AM

I think the above version is more likely the original 'Country Gardens' morris tune than a rescue job though:-) Wonder why they didn't call the album Wood Cutting...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:11 AM

It's the person who changed the morris tune "Country Gardens" into the song "English Country Garden" that we need to search out. Percy Grainger used the original Bampton title for his orchestral arrangement, but I fear that it was from there that the song is derived.

Back to main topic: the inventor of the kazoo.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:23 AM

Nothing at all wrong with kazoos, as far as I am concerned.I think bodhran-playing might be overdue for a nomination thtough.Perhaps not any old bodhran, but just bodhrans with Celtic knotwork painted on them might be singled out for the inferno.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:30 AM

Like, why even CALL them brodr boud bohda bored--why not just call them drums? Like, what's that about, hey? (With thanks to Mark Cohen.)

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

One of the greatest disservice to us folk i can think of must be, i hasten to add in my very 'umble opinion, that most boring, tedious, un-inspiring, insipid piece of dirge muzak - our national anthem!!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:43 AM

I heard a tale that we share our National Anthem with Lithuania, when The Repblic of Ireland played Lithuania at Croake Park in an International football match the band struck up the anthem of the visiting team........... to the synchronised accompanying sound of 35,00 jaws dropping !

Terrible dirge ......... but folk music ........ I think not

At least I wouldn't claim for it for my own

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:52 AM

We do indeed share the tune with Lithuania. It's also been used by several other countries including the USA (although I've momentarily forgotten which words they use).

And although it pains me to do this, I must support Terry Wogan - it started off that the tune was released by a brass band (Brighouse and Rastrick? It's been a long time) and played on the radio. Mr Wogan started to join in with it and some wag technician thought it would be fun to open his mike whilst he was singing. The GBP (Great British Public) being what it is, they innundated the station with requests for him to do it again and demand was such that he recorded it. Again, the GBP (fools to a man) went out and bought the record in such numbers that it became a hit.

I suspect the demand was so great because it was a folk song that was regularly taught in schools, when those things were still taught. My mother in law remembers being taught 'Blow away the morning dew' and I recently heard a woman of bus pass age comment that she learned 'Linden Lea' at school.

I have a book called 'The Community Song Book' that I "acquired" from my last school, which contains many traditional songs with the dots, which we used in Music lessons. I think that's where I first sang a recognisable folk song, although it was with 30 other girls and a mad Dutchman.

Further back than that, was 'Singing Together' - a radio for schools programme that we subscribed to. It produced song booklets (and yes, I still have one or two) and you sang along to the radio at a certain time (ours was 10.30 on Wednesday mornings), in the knowledge that children up and down the country were doing the same.

The Folk Diss award should go to the person who decided that traditional songs should not be available to schools either by changing the curricculum or by stopping the radio programmes.

LTS

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: fiddler
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:06 AM

British Folk is now, albeit vaguely, included in the primary curriculum - Just as it was wehen I were a lad - we had to hold hands with GIRLS - otherwise we got our legs slapped - we preferred the slap - and how many half remember Gay gordons from those days and i'm not talking sexual proclivities in the Boys loos here!

LTS Scan those song books in - I'd love to see one again - they were a good idea - these days it would be spice and sound - Posh and Poems - any other suggestions.

Diss - hmmm.... even if it is a bit trite and banal if the GBP recognise it and enjoy it we should not go all elitist about it we need it out there and currently bless them Auntie Beeb is doing a not too bad (but not essentially good) Job of it.

I can't think who to dis - it's against my nature - ever so sweet gentle and affable I am too even if I (and only I will) say it myself!

Andy

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM

'Puff the Magic Dragon'

Over here thought to be a fine folk song by many Chinese. Where the hell have they heard it as during the time of its release the country was in the throws of the cultural revolution.

When requested Big Paul Curran (our singer) just replies "I dont do Puffs"

'Morningtown Ride' by the Seekers should also be there. Sorry Oz'.

I too remember dance and song classes at primary school. Loved 'Hearts of Oak' and 'Donkey Riding', but being kids we all used to try and thing of alternative words which in Scotland meant a crack across the hands with the tawse.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Michael
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:50 AM

LTS, Wow' we sang in the same 'choir'- Singing Together at 10.30 Wednesday mornings, It was the highlight of our week.Remember the vote for your class favourite to be sung in the last programme of term? And Mr Appleby? Lovely deep voice.

My Diss award too is for the BBC for the same reason, and their continued repression of OUR Tradition! (rant over, sorry)
Mike

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM

Mind you, what has a village in Norfolk got to do with showing displeasure?

LTS

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:19 AM

The establishment of a Folk Music Department(or whatever it's called) at Newcastle University is an interesting one. Is this a wonderful thing, recognition of our glorious heritage, or is the kiss of death to what must, by its very nature, be the a grassroots common people's culture? I'm very ambivalent about this.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:23 AM

It feels very strange to be recommending them, but Tony Newley's Strawberry Fair and Rolf Harris's English Country Gardens should make excellent antidotes for anyone suffering from "serious" versions of those songs. Sadly, Kumbaya is untreatable AFAIK.

Liz, as a lass of merely thirty-odd summers (as I have it on good authority), you may not know that we who grew up in the fifties (a) had regular musc lessons and (b) sang a good many of Sharp's collected songs. (Ironically, some of them would be most un-pc today: I wouldn't dream of calling anyone a "mulatta", for instance.) That, along with the folk-revivalists on the wireless, sparked off my life-long love of the tradition and singing generally.

It's worth adding that during a brief (two terms) spell at another school when I was seven or eight, we did English country dancing, and it put me off for life!

Steve

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Hrothgar
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:30 AM

Do I interpret this as a criticism of that great Australian, Percy Grainger?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: pavane
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:31 AM

Rolf Harris? It predates him!

In partial defence, it is perhaps the only way to get a Morris Dance to number 1 in the charts (1960, Jimmie Rogers, I believe - was he the same one that got a name check in Black Velvet?)

And it is only the TUNE which is traditional.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 06:53 AM

No disrespect to dear old Perce, H! As I discovered only recently, he took down all the words to the songs he collected, unlike some other collectors, who were more interested in the tunes.

Pavane, I won't argue! But it's Rolf's recording I recall (I really don't know English Country Gardens at all ... ha-ha!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:00 AM

Have a look at Jon Freeman's Folkinfo site, where several mid-60s editions of Singing Together are being posted a song at a time

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:31 AM

Smooth Operations for the totally shite Mike Harding show.

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:05 AM

Oi!! MikeHarding is a lovely little fellow, and his programme is lovely. I would willing sell my house and all it's contents to pay for the BBC.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:10 AM

Ted he never returned your calls, you live in a Fiat Scud and still love him, thats dedication

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:53 AM

I sang many folk songs at school - usually out of "The National Song Book" - Twankydillo, Just as the Tide was flowing, The Mermaid, Sweep away the morning Dew, etc.

I wonder though, if my spinster teacher had any idea that "Morning Dew" referred to female virginity and that the verse:
My father bought a likely mare on last St Swithin's day,
But when he put her to the fence, she backed and backed away.
didn't actually refer to equine persuits !

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM

what the hell is this thread about agin?

"our national anthem"...ummm, I'm takin it you mean God Save The Queen by the Sex Pistols?

keerist, Brits are worse than Mericans for thinking themselves the center of the universe...them days are gone, lads & lasses.

Disservice to folk??? how bout them that think that it should be kept as museum-quality artifacts untouched by the 20th or 21st centuries?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM

Why Oh Why do I keep having this urge to nominate James Miller (In his alter ego of Ewan MacColl) if only for his hypocrisy regarding what people could sing in his Singers Club .If it did not pertain (in HIS) opinion to the singers background and up bringing then NO song spot . He would then proceed to sing whatever took his fancy , with NO regard to wether it had any relation to his Lancashire upbringing .

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

As has been mentioned in another recent discussion, it's only quite recently that Americans have been outnumbered here; the default assumption used to be that everybody must be from the US unless they specifically stated otherwise. It may be disconcerting to find folk from a (geographically) small place like the UK posting to a thread started by somebody from the UK and neglecting to mention that they aren't American; this isn't, I think, an example of their imagining themselves "the centre of the universe", but of their forgetting that America has long since arrogated to itself that assumption.

"Leadfingers", meanwhile, seems to be making the same assumption that I used to make about MacColl's "policy", until I had the opportunity of learning more about it from people who were there at the time. It was not at all so dogmatic as is now often supposed, being more to do with trying to get people to sing songs that they actually understood or had some sort of connection with, instead of whatever was currently fashionable. An equivalent now would be all those folk who insist on singing Gaelic songs learned parrot-fashion, in spite of the fact that they don't understand a word of the language. Now that is disrespect.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:46 PM

I think in a way Greg you've answered your own question. In referring to the 'Folk Department' at Newcastle you imply folk music is " a grassroots common people's culture."   I agree. Anything that takes the music out of this setting is doing it a disservice, and drains it of its relevance.

The best Folk Music I always think comes from the very essence of the person singing or playing it.   In this situation even an over popularised or corny song can suddenly sound new and hit you like a brick when you hear it.    This implies some visceral connection to the song.

The logical extension of this is that the one ends up wondering whether the "The Folk Club" itself isn't now itself doing a disservice to the music, by ghettoising it and perhaps constraining its forms. Folk music by definition must belong to, and perhaps even identify a wider community.   The folk club is a recent invention and personally, I anticipate the music will long out live the clubs.


So in answer to your question Greg, and perhaps a little controversially, I'd like to nominate the folk club as doing a disservice to Folk Music.

SM

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: BeekeeperFran
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:41 PM

If Folk Clubs are a disservice to folk music what does that make singarounds in pubs?

I was at school and took part in the Singing Together sessions on Wednesday mornings. I hold these responsible for my interest in folk music and led to my involvement with a morris side.One song which used to be sung in my last year of juniors was not folk based at all. It was called Calling all Zartians and was about man invading outer space. I never understood how this perversion fitted in with Twankydillo,Ash Grove and Sally Brown and should be rated as a disservice to folk.
Yours still confused
Fran

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:54 PM

1) The Spinners
2) Foster and Allen
3) The audience of a club which shall remain nameless who shushed two of my mates for clapping along to a tune set. To make matters worse we were playing acoustically and the organiser asked us to turn down!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:38 PM

Kim Howells

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:10 PM

duellingbouzoukis - If by The Spinners you mean the Detroit band ,fair enough , but if you mean those lovely lads from Liverpool I would argue with you . They introduced SO MANY people to Folk Music who moved on to greater things that saying what they did was a disservice to Folk is innaccurate to say the least .

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Grab
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

LTS, it's cos there's Norfolking way this any good...

I nominate Russ Shipton. Not a bad set of guitar tutor books, all things considered, but you get the feeling occasionally that he hadn't listened to the tunes (most notably "Suzanne" in a reggae-ish rhythm). I found I was buying CDs just so I knew how the chords *should* go!

Oh, and Bob Dylan with his harmonica rack. BD seemingly extracted all the tunes available from it, and no-one else seems to be able to do anything with a harmonica in a rack that doesn't sound like a poor BD imitation. Don't ask me why - regular harmonica players manage to have their own styles, play tunes, do phrasing, etc, so I don't know why a harmonica rack seems to kill originality.

Incidentally Jeri, on a similar theme to your kiddy record player. A friend of mine works on mobile phones, and he was asked to come up with a bunch of ringtones quickly (in the days before you could download your own). Being a fiddle player, he dug out his book of tunes and punched in a few good ones. Apparently they turned out to be the most popular ringtones on that phone! :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:11 PM

1. The maid who stuffed the big collection of old ballads into the fireplace to start her fires before Bishop Percy noticed what she was doing and saved some scorched ones. Around 1760ish.
2. Oliver Cromwell and friends.
3. The Norman Luboff Choir.

About the icecream vans. Ours here in Australia do indeed play Greensleves. A friend of mine's brother gets his revenge, (not as colourfully as Jeri I have to say though!) by telling his kids that when the van plays the music it means it has run out of icecream.
                                       Joy

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 AM

Eric (having missed a few) - I totally agree! It's about the worst thing that the Beeb could have done to "Folk Music".

Super ted - a bit pythonesque!

A further nomination - whoever coined the term "Folk Music", and got me labelled as a bearded loon wearing arran sweaters. I have been listening to (and performing) traditional music for over forty years (not bad, considering I still have a way to go to hit the big five oh) and I absolutely hate being called a "Folkie". It is a meaningless label - I subscribe to the Ray Charles view - there are only two types of music, good and bad. And even that is somewhat subjective!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

To include the Spinners is itself a disservice to folk. If there was a 'Service to Folk Awards' thread then i would certainly nominate the four Spinners (& their bassist) for a special award for their contribution and promotion of the music to a wider (folk = people) audience. And Hughie Jones is still doing his bit!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM

The Spinners were regulars on BBC TV when I was a lad, fond memories.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:59 AM

Eric
Ignore what Ted says, I couldnot believe how far down this thread I had to read before that plonker Harding got a mention. As for Ted I know he has eclectic tastes but hes just posted an appreciation of the Spinners either he needs medication or he should change his prescription

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:05 AM

Andy you are a sherman tanker! It's time I started a mike harding/spinners/olly beak appreciation thread!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:31 AM

Ted you big Panzer whats an olly beak

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:33 AM

Wally Whyton's stuffed owl sidekick, don't you know anything you Merchant banker?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:43 AM

Ted
Enough is enough just ask yourself who drives a Fiat

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:01 AM

What's wrong with Newcastle Uni running a degree course in Folk Music (the lovely NikNak is on it by the way)If someone is given the opportunity to study our hertitage they should and in most cases will disseminate that knowledge further, thus we ought to be promoting the expansion of such learning not decrying it. Furthermore the college itself will be in a position to gather and maintain a database of our collective history in dance, song, story and music ........ anyone have a problem with that

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:05 AM

As for the Spinners, I did the lighting when they played at my school in the late 60's. They got the audience going really well, one half chanting u wa wa u, wa wa u, brilliant all in time, the odd harmony, the other half doing a counter chant wa wa u wa, wa wa u wa, fantastic, the sound was wonderful ................



...then the Spinners joined in a f***ked the whole thing up !!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM

The nomination of Folk Clubs themselves as a disservice to folk is interesting. I was very active from the late sixties on in getting folk music out and about into the community, I put all my energy into pub sessions, pub gigs, carnivals, non-specific music festivals, theatre events, picnics, weddings, whatever. I didnt feel a particular hostility to the folk clubs: my feelings just led me elsewhere basically. Particularly as a result of some long discussions with Harry Boardman about what we ought to do with traditional NW English culture, I concentrated hard on anything that wasnt part of the developing "folk scene" of ghettoised clubs and festivals. The clubs had done a fantastic job in the previous decade of reviving, nurturing and developing things, but a lot of us felt then that it was time the music was hardened off and replanted in the wild.
   What the clubs can do cuts both ways. They can be seen as providing a safe environment to preserve and develop music that is not raucous enough to fit every into mainstream society(which good). Or precisely the same thing can be viewed as artificially peserving an uninteresting and prissy take on the music, which can never reach the man in the street(which is bad).
    Which view is right? Service or disservice? Or, as is often the case, a bit of both?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:51 AM

Greg
Your posting was an interesting read and I agree with your a bit of both conclusion. I know many people who are put off folk music by folk clubs as they see folk muic as folk club music. I'm desperately trying not to fall into that "what is folk music" hole and falling/failing.
Music is Music

Andy

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:08 AM

I really must stop picking on Mike Harding, as a singer, musician and songwriter I have a great deal of respect for him but as a broadcaster of folk music he does it a very great disservice.

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:12 AM

Thread drift: I went cycling last night with a lad who is doing an MA at Hull University in "Computer games programming" I kid you not! It's a real course! I am pleased that Newcastle are doing a folk degree, I just hope it is heavily weighted towards English music, and not some catch - all programme.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:39 AM

If i'm not mistaken did not Olly Beak partner Fred Barker on 'Five O'clock Club'? Now am i sad or what?

As for the Spinners (again)they tried to take 'folk music' out of the confines of clubs/pubs (or festivals) and take it to a wider audience (what they called 'the family of man'). That may seem a bit naive now and their presentation may have appeared at times, to some, to be a bit too straight or prissy but as Ralph Mctell once said 'You Well Meaning Brought Me Here'.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:45 AM

Dunno about Fred Barker, but Wally Whyton partnered olly, so did Ayshea Brough on ITV's "lift off" WOOF!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:08 AM

Maybe a certain record company in Harrogate, N Yorks UK, should be in the top ten?
Can't for the life of me remember why though?!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:12 AM

Alright, maybe I was hasty about the Spinners - a personal taste thing I guess. I note however that no-one has leapt to the defence of Foster and Allen! On that point I refuse to recant!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:13 AM

Foster and Allen = Mulligan and O'hare.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

Mulligan and O'Hare = comedy :)
Foster and Allen = tragedy :(

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Cool Beans
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 PM

Awful music played by an ice cream truck is not a new issue.
Stan Freberg (American humorist, for you across the ponds) did this song on his radio show, circa 1960. It was in a skit about Good Humor that's a brand name) ice cream trucks, sung by a chorus of drivers, to the tune of "Collegiate."

Humor, Humor, yes we are Good Humor
That is not no rumor,
Yay, oh,
Music, music, how we love the music
Lovely nursery music
Tinkling as we go.
Earplugs, earplugs, we won't wear at all
Or we could be sentenced to a hundred days of
Yankee Doodle
Worse than tutti fruit-le
Sell it by the oodle
Good Humor, we love you.
Yay.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:17 PM

I'm have to agree with Eric T.R about Mike Harding. It always a tragedy when someone like M H gets sucked into one of those British institutions which seem to suck the life blood out of innovative and rebellious individuals.

It must have been in the early seventies that I saw MH at a the Thelwall FC on the outskirts of Warrington. In those days the Mersey was generally somewhere under 6 ft of foul smelling pink foam, and SELNEC busses had NO SPITTING notices on the upper decks.

Thelwall was rather on 'the bosses' side of town, and had the reputation, even in those days, of being a bit prissy. Harding was hilarious, outspoken,and brilliant. He succeeded in upsetting all the right people, not least the lady organiser who discovered him relieving himself in a wash-hand basin in the ladies loo during the interval.

I don't suppose he does that very often in the BBC.

SM

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Compton
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:33 PM

I suspect that Mr Harding has bugger all to do with the content of "The Folk Programme". With the exception of John Peel and perhaps Andy Kershaw, all D.J's and Presenters of Music on BBC..have a man at the back (Producer!) that decides playlist and content.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,LIzzie
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:04 PM

Dunno about that mate. I love Steel Eye span, am BIG fan of Maddy Prior but feel that I have had them rammed down my throat by MH to the extent that I would feel resentful about buying one of their albums. Its EVERY single week, and he talks about them like they are the best and most amazing folk band in the world. Or at least it was every single week before I gave up listening. Why doesn't he promote people who are still unsigned, or on the way up? There are so many unrecognised people around.

A very well known performer once said to me that the problem with festivals is that it is amateurs booking professionals and that often they don't think about about what other people might like to see, or what would be a good variety, only what THEY like. Although MH could be said to be a professional in terms of his own music, I do think he only puts on stuff that coincides with his own personal taste.

Then again, perhaps it wouldn't matter so much if there was more folk on tv and radio full stop, and therefore more audience choice. I guess we can't blame Mikey for the BBC etc.. being rubbish at promoting this kind of music.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:44 AM

The question is Stage Manager, how did Mike reach a wash basin for a slash ? he must have stood on a chair.

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: treewind
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:26 AM

Spot on, Compton. Smooth Operations (John Leonard &co) production company and Radio2 management makes the decisions about what to play and MH is the poor old figurehead wot gets all the bashing for it. He gets a bit o'fame too; I doubt I'd turn the job down if I was offered it. (as if I could do it...)

As long as Radio 2's policy is dictated from on high to be "celebrity led" (management's actual words) it's never going to be a credible supporter of folk music by many people's criterion.

BTW, nice posting from Squeezy John yesterday in uk.music.folk illustrating this very point:

when we were coming up with our material I volunteered a demo CD to them and the feedback was that it was not radio friendly and that our treatment of traditional song was too involved to do justice to the tradition. Now, nothing has changed in our music that was influenced by those comments - but our popularity has meant that we are now Radio 2 friendly. And that's the point. The Mike Harding show is market driven which I do not agree with in the case of a public service broadcaster like the BBC.

My "disservice" vote, by the way, goes to crass journalists who trot out old clichés about Arran sweaters, fingers in the ear and hey-nonny-no "local yokel" morris dancers... just for a cheap laugh. Not clever, not funny, guys, it just reads like the tired ramblings of a pissed old hack running on automatic. Unfortunately your average reader is taken in by it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:48 AM

I did hear that John Leonard and Nick Barraclough have sold out Smooth Ops to another company, why doesn't this surprise me ?

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:51 AM

Good question about the chair Eric. I wasn't there to witness the event myself. The organiser insisted on on telling the entire club about it after the event. Perhaps there wasn't a chair available and she (the organiser) had to hold Mike up to the sink, which is why she was so narked about it.


I'm afraid I belong to those who tend towards the opinion that 'market or 'celebrity' led folk music broadcast by the mass media is likely to lead it to become something else entirely.

Singarounds were mentioned earlier. My first exposure to folk music was at the "Sing and Play' at the New Inn in Hurstpierpoint in the late sixties. (The New Inn which must have been a pub for at least 400 years old, was an Indonesian restaurant the last time I passed it). Scan Tester used to come occasionally, and impromtu interludes of dancing by (mainly) the Chanctonbury Ring side, I recall as being more like semi choreographed punch-ups, during which furniture and limbs were broken. Scan had died by the time I finished College.

My instinct is that Folk Music is at its best when a group of people get together on occasions like a 'Sing & Play for largely informal music making. I'd almost say a pre-requisite was that everyone contributes in one way or another, and nobody, including the organiser, knows what the final result of the evening is going to be.

Perhaps the formalities and rituals of some clubs, the concert format, and maybe even festivals, do act against the spirit of the music.

I did recently hear a programme by M.H. which was about some recently re-discovered field recordings from the 50s. There were all these old boys having a lark, bantering and a singing some great old songs. It was most definitely folk music when it was being sung. Somehow the intrusion of the microphone, and the turning of a convivial evening from long ago into a radio programme for Radio 4 with its inevitable 'informed comments' for me, turned it into something else.


Bill

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:34 AM

Satge Manager: the convivial evening recordings you referred to are well worth a listen in their entirety. The recordings were made in 1953 in various pubs in north Cumberland, by Norman Alford and Robert Forrester, of themselves and friends singing old Cumbrian songs and tunes. They have reissued recently on a Veteran CD(I havent the details to hand I'm afraid...I've got copies of the originals on cassette so I havent bought the CD), but it's called "Pass the Jug Around". The reissue was arranged by Sue Allan, the intrepid collector of Cumbriana, by the way.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:27 AM

I think the point made by compton above re Mike Harding's programme i.e. 'With the exception of John Peel and perhaps Andy Kershaw, all D.J's and Presenters of Music on BBC..have a man at the back (Producer!)'... sums up the problem with folk on the beeb. John Peel in the early days had a kind of partnership or understanding with his producer i.e the late John Walters, and together they broadcast some outstanding music.

Whatever control Mike has over his programme and whatever you think of the content, surely it's better than having no programme at all!?. I'm sure Mike tries to show as many aspects of the current 'folk/contempory' scene as his remit allows. I certainly would not consider his programme a disservice to 'folk'.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Compton
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM

As to "The Ancient" BBC, whence but a lad in short trousers, I remember, on a sunday, I think, the transmission of radio of the Alan Lomax, Peter Kennedy, field recordings on a programme called "As I roved out".'twas probably in the days following Reith, but had a lasting effect on me. The BBC then weren't catering to the masses...or were the masses simpler folk then!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM

John Leonard of Smooth Operations is being accused in his thread of being the real source of the music choices on the Mike Harding programme. Nowt wrong with that, if true. John (Lenny) Leonard has served his time as a folk club turn for years, playing guitar and singing with John Squires on fiddle, and knows the business like the back of his hand. He's been responsible for running the Beeb's activities at Sidmouth and Cambridge festivals for the last few years as well. I think he does a great job, balancing up the many different ways folk in this country is treated. Whatever anyone did to produce the MH prog would be hated by some part of the folk world.
Confession - I used to be in a band (Balls, Banquets and Functions)with Lenny 30 years ago.
Ray

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

So many negatives.

I went through the ritual of despising the Spinners when I thought I knew a bit about folk music, but now they are gone you don't hear The Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh on mainstream TV any more.

Mike Harding I'm sure he does his best.

1950s bowderlised folksongs - well at least we heard folksongs at school.

I remember one night we were having an after hours chat in an Irish pub in Sheffield.

Somebody said Carrickfergus was their favourite song, and I said I remembered when Val Doonican used to sing it every week on the telly. he had a fancy jumper and I think he fancied himself as a handsome rover from town to town.

Somebody said God almighty that's put me off it.....

so many negatives!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:32 AM

Yes, you're quite right weelittledrummer. Must admit i did enjoy Val at times in thowdum days and have always enjoyed the Spinners. I think he introduced us to the great Dave Allen aswell if i'm not mistaken.

It's all a matter of personal taste (& age) at the end of the day i suppose.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

Greg Stephens for culture secretary! I never knew there was a world outside of the folk scene for years...and that they might actually like folk music if they just got access to it!
On topic, John Tams for "Rolling Home", one of the worst songs ever written.
x e

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

But John Tams did the music for the Sharpe films! That was a great service surely.
Plus it gave us good music AND Sean Bean looking georgously sexy in uniform!!! Yum!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

I suspect the antipathy to "Rolling Home" stems from the circumstances in which it's generally sung - the festival beer tent at closing time.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM

And while we're on the subject of songs "The Wild f***ing Rover!" AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:39 PM

To WDET in the Detroit area of southeastern Michigan for deciding that we are better served by removing "Folks like Us" with Matt Watroba and "Arkansas Traveller" despite the fact that they were among the leading fundraising shows in their stock. They did this so they could move to a more "formatted" type of programming, among other reasons. They did this without advance notice, hence denying Matt the opportunity to even say goodbye to his loyal audience of 20+ years. Another example of how "public" media is whitewashing itself and doing a huge disservice to the folk community.

Mick

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:46 PM

Amen, Mick.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:45 PM

If John Tams hadnt written Rollin Home , there wouldnt be the lovely parody Rolling Drunk !!!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:26 AM

I still like the Wild Rover (Alex Campbell used to do a grand version). It just got over-sung. I'm sure someone did a re-arrangement with not too long with a different tune which took it away from the usual folk 'standard'. Was it Dave Burland? Not sure.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM

I've heard two alternate versions - one is a lament in a minor key and the other is a 6/8 jiggy affair. Trouble is, the guy who I used to work in a duo with insisted on doing one of the two at every gig we did. So I got sick of them, too! And since these were mainly crappy Irish theme pub gigs we wound up doing the proper version every night anyway! I would like the Wild Rover played at my funeral to make sure I'm dead and not just unconscious...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

The House Band did a good, mournful "Wild Rover."

As an American, I'd nominate the racists who beat up the Cajun/Creole music great Amede Ardoin for accepting a handkerchief from a white girl to wipe his face during a performance. This was long ago, of course, when lynch mobs were still the rule in Louisiana, and Amede was beaten til nearly dead. He never fully recovered and died, I think, only a few years later. Actually, I think racism in America has done a great disservice to folk (and folks) all around...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM

I don't look in here as often as I should so I've only just seen the references to Ollie Beak and Fred Barker.Nothing sad about remembering them.What about Pussycat Willum while we're about it? Back to the subject. The Wild Rover was probably as good a song as any way back when but now there are people who think it is the only folk song in existance.Who's going to educate them?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM

The Wild Rover is still a popular song in a NON folk event - At least people DO join in , even if its only the four stamps/Raps on the table .

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:06 AM

The 100th post....

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:07 AM

...is mine!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,raggytash
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:56 AM

And this is the room number you should be put in

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:57 AM

Morning Carpet face.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:24 AM

I nominate the 'prats' in the media who purposefully ridicule our folk heritage in all it's forms. The cheap laughs are at the expense of the ethos that makes us, and them, what we are. What I think is worse is when this attitude translates into discriminatory action or lack of it.
I suppose my greatest claim to fame is standing on a stage in Portugal in front of a live audience of over 5,000 as a musician with Dorset Triumph Folk Dancers representing my country at the first European Folklore Festival.
We didn't win but we were there and the final show was televised by EuroVision to millions across the whole of Europe, except that is, for the UK whose television broadcasters decided, in their wisdom, to ignore the whole thing because it was 'folk'!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:26 PM

Good musicians. Ordinary folks who got up at gatherings and sang the songs of their communities stopped performing. It's pretty much vanilla flavoured now.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM

I think it was Ron Kavana did that version of the wild rover you are talking about - the one with the slightly different tune. I think I heard him do it in Derby coupla years back

top man!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:18 AM

Mmmmmmm. maybe you have a point, I'll have to think about it.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM

VAUGHAN BLOOD WILLIAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry
yelling over

I'll crawl back into my nice quiet padded cell now.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:17 AM

My last post doesn't make a great deal of sense, as the post which it replied to has been(sensibly) removed by a Joe Clone. It emphatically does not relate to weelittledrummer's previous post.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Scoville
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:30 AM

Our local ice cream trucks either play all of "Turkey in the Straw" or the first line only of "the Entertainer", which is worse. At least play a couple of bars! Aargh!

As an American, I'd nominate the racists who beat up the Louisiana Creole accordionist Amédé Ardoin for accepting a handkerchief from a white girl to wipe his face during a performance.

Second.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:12 AM

People and teams who insist on performing dance / music in exactly the same way it was by some bloke in the year blah blah blah, I.e. those who dont let folk music and dance evolve, and who get offended by any changes! Folk music and dance is there to be enjoyed and modified as time goes on.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM

Bloody astounding! over 100 posts and nobody's mentioned D*ve B*lm*r.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

I've no doubt Smoothops would love to give Dave Bulmer an award since they like each other so much.
Thus they would oppose, obviously, one to the Beast of Harrogate for "disservice" to the industry.
If, however, he were suddenly to decide to release his buried treasures in a proper and above-board manner with all due royalties paid (or alternatively return the rights to the artists), I'd be applauding any plan to give him a gong for (belatedly) doing the right thing.

(Watching a cloud of Gloucester Old Spots drifting by my window)

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM

(Watching a cloud of Gloucester Old Spots drifting by my window)

Whole squadron of farmyard animals in my case.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:25 PM

(Watching a cloud of Gloucester Old Spots drifting by my window)
now there has to be a complete song lyric there somewhere.

Charlotte (watching the cat make a complete fool of itself)

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:55 PM

Sounds suspiciously like something Syd Barrett should have sung on one of his solo albums to me.

Nigel (about to dig out 'The Madcap Laughs')

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:56 PM

I have it on unreliable authority (Father Kenneth Loveless) that the words to English Country Gardens were written by Cecil Sharp.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:24 PM

You don't get a lot of people called Cecil these days.......

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Edgware
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 07:47 AM

I've just read through the whole of this discourse, and was rather surprised that nobody thought of nominating messrs Rich & Gay. Arguably, they seem to have kicked off the process of hijacking folk or should I say traditional melodies with "the Beggar's Opera" - "Lumps of Pudding" et al.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 11:05 AM

Sitting in the beer tent at Warwick the other week I noticed three large posters advertising other festivals. The promoters were clearly using certain names as 'headline' acts to draw in the punters. These were, on the whole, winners of folk awards, darlings of the media and bands/singers 'poppy' enough to be tolerated by the 'folk-haters'. I would suggest, on the strength of this that the problem doesn't lie with the media but with the 'folk audience' who, to judge by their tastes, would actually rather be at a rock festival.