Origins: Cadgwith Anthem

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 PM

Just listened to the version recorded by Carpenter (about 1930?) The Beautiful Cashmire raises its head again!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:49 PM

Thanks to Ged Fox's link in Song searching - 'Beauty of Kashmir?' to his scan of the Naval Song Book version, I now add that version for completeness. I've transposed it from Eb to F to align with the versions above.

The scan was at a bit of an oblique angle, but I think I got it correctly, except possibly the note on To (in To the caves...) which I've got here as e, but just possibly could be d (that is I think the original was d, but it might be c).

Mick

---

X:4
T:Robber's Retreat
B: Gundry: Naval Song Book, 1945
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:F
C|F> G A/B/|c A c|B G c| (A/G/) F C/C/|
w:We come from yon-der moun-tains, our pis-tols are load_ ed For to
(F> G) A/B/| c A c| B G E|F2 E/F/|
w:rob_ and to plun-der it is our in-tent As we
G G (F/G/)| A A G/A/| B B A/B/|c c A/B/|
w:roam through the_ val-leys where the li-lies and the ro-ses And the
c c c| A A c| B G E| F2||
w:beau-ti-ful cash-mere lies droop-ing its head.
E/F/| G2 F/G/|A2 G/A/| (A/G/ A) B| c2 e/c/|
w:Then a-way, then a-way, then a-way__ a-way. To the
c c c/B/| A A c/c/|B G E| F2||
w:caves in yon-der moun-tains in the rob-bers re-treat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

Richard - Re the tune in Handy Man...: the verse tune does sound a bit like Cob-a-Coaling at the start!.

The chorus after the double bars could be sung as is, ending on a dominant harmony. But if the last 6 bars are shifted up 1 step modally (ie move a note in a space to the line above, and a note on a line to the space above - don't add any accidentals), then the tune is almost exactly as you hear now. So it could have been a transcribing error for the last 6 bars.

Below I give the original tune, a version with the last 6 bars shifted modally and for comparison I've set the same words to a version of the tune as usually heard these days (unless you like to continue the last away up into the stratosphere!).

Mick

---

X:1
T:Robber's Retreat
B:Goodenough: The Handy Man Afloat And Ashore, 1901
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:F
C|F> G A/B/|c A c|B G c| (A/G/)F C/C/|
w:We come from yon-der moun-tains, our pis-tols are load_ ed For to
(F> G) A/B/| c A c| B G E|F2 E/F/|
w:rob_ and to plun-der it is our in-tent As we
G G (F/G/)| A A G/A/| B B A/B/|c c A/B/|
w:roam through the_ val-leys where the li-lies and the ro-ses And the
c c c| A A c| B G E| F2||
w:beau-ti-ful cash-mere lies droop-ing its head.
E/F/| G2 F/G/|A2 G/A/| (A/G/) A B| c2 e/c/|
w:Then a-way, then a-way, then a-way__ a-way. To the
B B B/A/| G G B/B/|A F D| E2||
w:caves in yon-der moun-tains in the rob-bers re-treat.

X:2
T:Robber's Retreat (modified chorus)
N: MCP modified chorus
B:Goodenough: The Handy Man Afloat And Ashore, 1901
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:F
C|F> G A/B/|c A c|B G c| (A/G/)F C/C/|
w:We come from yon-der moun-tains, our pis-tols are load_ ed For to
(F> G) A/B/| c A c| B G E|F2 E/F/|
w:rob_ and to plun-der it is our in-tent As we
G G (F/G/)| A A G/A/| B B A/B/|c c A/B/|
w:roam through the_ val-leys where the li-lies and the ro-ses And the
c c c| A A c| B G E| F2||
w:beau-ti-ful cash-mere lies droop-ing its head.
E/F/| G2 F/G/|A2 G/A/| (B/A/) B c| d2 f/d/|
w:Then a-way, then a-way, then a-way__ a-way. To the
c c c/B/| A A c/c/|B G E| F2||
w:caves in yon-der moun-tains in the rob-bers re-treat.

X:3
T:Robber's Retreat (more or less as heard these days)
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:F
(A/B/)|c c f/f/|A A c|(c/B/) G B| (B/A/) HF B/c/|
w:We_ come from yon-der moun-tains, our pis_ tols are load_ ed For to
c c f|A A c|(c/B/) G E| F2 E/F/|
w:rob_ and to plun-der it is our in-tent As we
G G> G| F/G/ HA G/A/| (B/B/) B c/B/|(A/B/) Hc A/B/|
w:roam through the val_ leys where the li-lies and the_ ro_ ses And the
c c f| A A c| (c/B/) G E| F2||
w:beau-ti-ful cash-mere lies droop_ ing its head.
E/F/| G2 F/G/|A2 G/A/| (B/A/ B/c/ d/e/| f2) f/d/|
w:Then a-way, then a-way, then a-way_____. To the
c c c/B/| A A c/c/|(c/B/) G E| F2||
w:caves in yon-der moun-tains in the rob_ bers re-treat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

I've just noticed that the Carpenter collection has a recording of this online now. Now exact date, but c1929-35 from Cove near Trelowarren Castle: Robber's Retreat. Click the disc icon to play; it's faint but audible (the 1st song; there are others too).


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JWB
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:33 PM

the 1901 versions gives it as "the beautiful cashmere".

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 09:43 AM

"Beautiful Kashmir" is from the earliest printed version, 1901.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Jenny
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 08:12 AM

None of these are how it is generally sung - and where has the "beautiful" Kashmir come from?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 08:40 PM

My attempt at Robbers' Retreat - Goodenough version

The more familiar tune was printed in Gundry's "Canon Kernow" 1966 - supposedly as recorded in Cadgwith by Peter Kennedy 10 years earlier.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 04:56 AM

The plot thickens. The tune in the book (page 93) is not the one that I am familiar with as sung here and here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:10 PM

??
Handy Man Ashore & Afloat 1901

It seems to be that the last line (last four bars) has shifted into E flat. That is, if the E flat key signature were written at the start of the line the dots would be identical to the same bars in the Naval Song Book. Oops

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:19 PM

In the Naval Song Book, to which Rev Goodenough had some input, the tune is written in E flat, with E flat as the final note. Maybe it was a typo when first printed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JWB
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM

Take a look at the tune given in Goodenough's book (link in Jim Dixon's post of April 9, 2011). The melody is solidly in the key of F major, yet the final note printed is an E. Has to be a typo, don't you think? If not, that puts quite a twist to it. Perhaps, in keeping with the seemingly absurd lyrics, ending with such a dissonance was all part of the fun.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM

The book mentioned above: Canow Kernow, (copyright 1966) definitely has "Beauty of Kashmir" in the lyrics, so any change was before your first date of the 1970s.
The book also give 3 part harmony for T/B/B.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 05:28 PM

Here's a real anorak question for you. I was in the Cadgwith Cove Inn last Friday and heard the brilliant singing from the locals, including "The Robber's Retreat". They definitely sang "...the beauty of Kashmire" in the chorus, whereas the 1956 and 1970s recordings both have "... the beautiful Kashmire". I bought a CD of their singing (made in 2008 - excellent) and that too has "...beauty of..." So sometime between the 1970s and 2008 they changed the lyric. I am wondering when and why. Was it the influence of the folk revival?

Answers on a postcard

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,JeffB
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:49 PM

I visited Cadgwith a few months ago, and over the boat shed on the beach is a plaque mentioning singers named Bullen and Hartley - just the surnames, no other info. Anyone know anything about these two?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Big Rod
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:22 AM

This song is now widely sung as part of the Cornish pub "Shout" revival.
I have done quite a bit of research, not into the origins of the song, but the possible origins of the folk lore that surrounds it.
The most famous robber of the Lizard is probably John Carter. Porth-en- ayls or alls (AKA Prussia Cove) is a short distance from Cadgwith and all the fishing communities are interlinked. I have a feeling that the Robbers Retreat, might have been some kind of folk memory about The Carter Family. I have extracts below that would explain the lines: "Caves in Yonder Mountains"

and "Lay drooping his head"

However, there is no direct reference to "The Beauty of Cashmere or Kashmir" It seems very odd that if this refers to a flower, then why is it followed by the male pronoun? Flowers are generally considered to be Female in gender.
It is possible that Kashmir or Cashmere was possibly a common term for a smuggler (see below) in the same way that Corsican became connected with Bandits.

From "Smuggling in The British Isles" by Richard Platt unfortunately out of print.

The following extract about Kings Cove or Prussia Cove


..'so sheltered and secluded that it is impossible to see what boats are in the little harbour until one literally leans over the edge of the cliff above; a harbour cut out of the solid rock and a roadway with wheel-tracks, partly cut and partly worn, climbing up the face of the cliff on either side of the cove, caves and the remains of caves everywhere, some of them with their mouths built up which are reputed to be connected with the house above by secret passages — these are still existing trademarks left by one of the most enterprising smuggling gangs that Cornwall has ever known'

The following extract about John Carter (the King of Prussia) being nearly taken by the crew of a Man-o-War after his own friends deserted him.

He was struck down, severely wounded, and left for dead, but after several hours his body was still warm although 'his head is all to atoms' as one of the guards observed. Despite his injuries, he was able to crawl across the deck and drop into the water. Once in, he found — not surprisingly — that his stout swimming skill had deserted him, and he was forced to pull himself along ropes at the ship's side, until he could touch the bottom and crawl out of the water. On land, he was picked up, half dead, by local men...

Carters own Diary about this incident says that his nose was nerelt severed, hanging on a piece of skin and that the top and back of his head was deeply cut by some terrible cutlass slashes.

Britannica entry on Smuggling in India in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

"Attempts by the Chinese government to stop the smuggling of opium led to the opium war of the 1840s. British India in the 19th century suffered smuggling of salt between states with different tax rates, while smuggling of all kinds of dutiable goods occurred between Goa and India"

Kashmir is also on the Silk Road and passing through the Himalayan Valleys probably produced quite a lot of contraband for robbers.

It is possible that Kashmir was a kind of nickname for a Smuggler.

I rest my case!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 20 May 13 - 05:55 AM

Candleford is a fictional village created by Flora Thompson in a rural trilogy called Larkrise to Candleford.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

Shhh, someone might actually think you're serious, and soon the Westboro Church will be blaming the Boston marathon bombings on the Pirates of Penzance!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JWB
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:54 PM

I wonder if the composer(s) of this song could have been inspired by Gilbert and Sullivan. Silly, "topsy-turvey" lyrics and a beautiful melody bring their work to mind. And tho probably a total coincidence, they set Pirates of Penzance in Cornwall.

And just to "add to the confusion" as an earlier poster said, isn't cashmere the wool of a goat? So, "the beautiful cashmere lay drooping its head" could represent a capricine element to increase the absurdity of the piece.

But wait, there's more! The US Naval Academy's mascot is a goat, and when considered in light of the presented evidence of a Royal Navy origin for the song it might be that "beautiful cashmere" is a reference to American swabs...

I'll shut up now.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Artful Codger
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 11:35 PM

Once you see the 1906 four-verse version of the song, there's not much mystique to the song that I can see. That version also shows that the two best-remembered "new" verses supposedly penned during the now-famous folkie session weren't new at all. Most of the song's "mystique" was slathered on by revisionists. Given the short two-verse version adopted by the Cadgwith fishermen (probably taken from Goodenough's memoir of 1901), that's not surprising—people like to fill in gaps. But now we know better, and can dispel long-standing misinformation about the song's origin and meaning.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: breezy
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 05:52 PM

Vic Legg still at the Bodmin Folk club on Friday nights as is Mo Keast who was greatly
encouraged by Mervyn Vincent

A song of great mystique

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Artful Codger
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 04:36 PM

@Ali: So much fakelore has been written surrounding this song that I advise caution in what you consider the true facts. What we know is that the song was NOT written by the fishermen of Cadgwith in the 1950s; it was published at least twice (once with tune) fifty years earlier; see the related threads for details—sources viewable at Google Books. Prior to acquiring the dodgy title of "Cadgwith Anthem" the song was known as "The Robber's Retreat." (You may justly argue that the apostrophe is misplaced, since the song is phrased in first person plural.) If you pay any attention to the original four-verse lyrics, it's clear that the song concerns highway robbery, not smuggling or piracy, even if it was popular with seamen and was used as a shanty. As for the "beauty of Kashmir" (originally, "beautiful cashmere"), I wouldn't take any of the guesswork as convincing, though context alone favors a common wildflower.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ali Rowe
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 11:26 AM

Thanks to you all!!    I have to give a talk on Cornish Folk Music later in the year and was wondering whether I would find anything on the Cadgwith Anthem - then I found all of this THANK YOU!!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,brian rich
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:36 AM

the beauty of kashmir is an old variety of rose, instead of the flower head pointing up as most roses do it has a drooping head or flower

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Pete Rogers
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:58 PM

I ought to add that the valleys are the sea, (it is sometimes referred to as the lowlands as in the shanty "Lowlands are wide my John") and the "lillies and the roses" are old terms for sailors in their white apparel and marines in their red unifirms.


Regards

Pete Rogers

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Pete Rogers
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:33 PM

I thought it was a song relating to stealing from wrecks, though whether "The Beauty of Kashmir" was a real wreck or fictional I don't know. The "Caves in yonder mountains" are just where they hide the booty. Highway robbery in the second verse is the other lawless occupation, celebrated in what is really a song about a pair of bravado folk myths.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE ROBBER'S RETREAT (from G. Goodenough)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:08 AM

From The Handy Man Afloat & Ashore by George Goodenough (Boston: Small Maynard & Company, 1901), page 92, which has musical notation for one voice:

The following song always struck me as having one of the finest airs ever sung on a foc's'le. To hear the chorus pealing forth from some hundred or more throats was a thing to be remembered. The only pity is that the words are not more sensible. Such as they are they were very difficult to obtain. A bluejacket once wrote down all he could remember of them for me, but the copy got mixed up with other papers and I thought I had lost it. No one else could I find that could repair the supposed loss. Inquiries at second-hand music shops in London were fruitless. Many men could tell me that they knew the song but could not give me the words. Quite recently I came across my copy and here is the song.


THE ROBBER'S RETREAT.

1. We come from yonder mountains, our pistols are loaded,
For to rob and to plunder it is our intent,
As we roam through the valleys where the lilies and the roses,
And the beautiful cashmere lies drooping its head.

CHORUS: Then away, then away, then away, away,
To the caves in yonder mountains, to the robbers' retreat.

2. Hark, hark! in the distance there's footsteps approaching:
Stand, stand and deliver shall be our watchword;
    As we roam, &c.


Poor words: the lines not even rhyming, and the sentiment not very edifying. But you forget this as you hear the melody rolling out from those lusty throats with a glorious swing in the chorus of "Then away, then away, then away … away!" Perhaps we may some day find a poet who will link stirring and worthy words to this splendid melody; but meantime we may forgive the poorness of the song for the sake of the ring of the music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:50 PM

Moving from evidence to supposition, from what little I've been able to find about Rev. Goodenough, I would guess that the song was written for some ship-board entertainment, (imagine Ali Baba,) and the words probably made good sense in their original context.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:56 PM

Crap words to a good tune.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:30 AM

Good bit of research. The 1906 version tune is close enough to the version sung in Cadgwith to suggest that the latter derived from the former through oral transmission.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM

The 1906 tune went something like this - http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoId=106993873&searchid=69c020fc-8075-4965-a798-a5ca4e5c28bf

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM

was "GUEST, Ged" but now registered.

I've now acquired 2 more copies of The Naval Songbook.

1) Contents identical to the one I already had. Inscription dates the book to 1913. So the Robbers' Retreat was definitely in the Naval Songbook before WW1.

2) The 1945 version, dated and stated to be compiled and edited by Inglis Gundry. Only 7 out of 66 songs made it from the old to the new book, and the Robbers' Retreat was not one of them.
The Gundry collection is much more folky (collected by Sharp, Karpeles etc) and more shanties (collected by Terry etc) than the earlier book. It is interesting that Gundry, who included Robbers' Retreat in Canow Kernow (1966) did not appear to recognize it as a Cornish folk song when he had it to hand in 1945.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:52 AM

One point I have not seen raised: at what point in time was this song first labelled the Cadgwith Anthem, and thereby annexed as an "old Cornish folksong"? Was this Peter Kennedy in 53, or someone else at some other time?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM

This looks a more coherent set of words and more verses!

I have in the back of my mind that the Watchet Footbal club were known as the "Robbers". If this is true it could explain their use of the song as an anthem.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ged
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

Well - I've been looking more closely at my copy of Naval Song Book. It is undated and I assumed it was the 1945 version.

Closer inspection, however, makes me think it is the earlier version.   
The previous owner was an officer in WW2 which is why I assumed the 1945 version. A little research, however, showed me that he was born in 1896 and worked his way up through the ranks.
He was in Malta (Warrant Engineer, HMS Warsprite) in 1928, and the book contains a concert programme that could relate to that period (it mentions the Bastion Club, which suggests Valetta)
Also, the contents of the book correlate well with the late-Victorian/Edwardian song books, (I'll post the index in the Victorian song indexes thread,) and the latest copyright acknowledged is 1902.
So - - I think I have a published copy of the Robbers' Retreat from the early part of the century.

I could be wrong, of course, but at least there's something that can be verified.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ged
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:03 PM

The words in my copy of The Naval Song book are:

We come from yonder mountains, our pistols are loaded,
For to rob and to plunder it is our intent,
As we roam through the valleys where the lilies and the roses
And the beautiful cashmere lies drooping its head.
Then away, then away, then away, away,
To the caves in yonder mountain
To the robbers' retreat.

Hark, hark! In the distance there's footsteps approaching:
Stand, stand and deliver! Shall be our watchword – As we...

Your gold and your jewels, - Your life if resisted!
We shall laugh at your agony, and scorn at your threats – As we...

Come fill up your glasses, and let's be a-drinking,
For the moonbeams are shining all over our heads – As we...

* * *

Neither words nor music are ascribed to any person but, as I stated above, the "kind permission of the Rev. G. Goodenough M.A." was acknowledged.

I was slightly misleading in my earier post, as this acknowledgement was only given to 8 of the songs, all grouped together in the book. For one of the songs, "Plymouth Sound," Rev G. G. was given as the composer - Baring-Gould having written the words. (Yes - the words are the same as those in "Songs and Ballads of the west" but the tune is not.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JeffB
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

PS I notice from Hawker's two posts on 26 Oct 05 that 1st Bn DCLI was transported back to England in 1906, about the same time that the Naval Song Book was printed. Would it be too fanciful to imagine a connection; could they have sang the song on the way home?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JeffB
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM

Thanks very much Ged. I wonder if the Rev actually composed the song, which you seem to say is the same as BoK. Do you happen to know how many verses were in the Naval Song Book and what they were?

Sir Sid's March was I suppose composed before his death in 1840.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:04 AM

The Cadgwith Anthem... was written in the 1950s by a group of fishermen in Cadgwith who decided they needed their own song for the village.......

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ged
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 06:46 AM

"Sir Sidney Smith's March" was known (and written down) in C19th, and I'd guess it was at least contemporaneous with Sir Sidney, i.e. early C19th or even very late C18th, when Sir Sidney was the nation's most popular hero.

"The Robbers' Retreat" is included in the Naval Song Book, edited by Inglis Gundry circa 1945. It is included (as are a number of songs in the book) "by permission of Rev G. Goodenough M.A."
Rev G. Goodenough was a Chaplain to the Fleet. I suspect, (perhaps someone could confirm,) that Rev Goodenough compiled "The Naval Song Book" published circa 1906, and that Inglis Gundry incorporated songs from the earlier book (including, maybe, Robbers' Retreat) into the 1945 book.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JeffB
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM

I have always assumed (no evidence, just a hunch) that the Anthem was originally composed for a pageant. These were very popular as village or town celebrations in the 1920s and 30s, with everyone dressing up in costume and re-enacting bits of local history or legend. I imagine that there would be appropriate music, dance or song wherever there was enough talent to provide it.

A march-past of a squad of DCLI players would probably not be out of place in Cadgwith, especially if local men had served on the NW frontier (and told their stories endlessly at the pub for years after), and a short song with a highly singable chorus would be just the thing as they took the salute.

I have came across a couple of other pieces that I feel could have their origins in 20th cent pageants or civic ceremonies (might make an interesting thread). One is "William Rufus", another "Sir Sidney Smith's March".

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Scorpio
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:26 PM

The simplest explanation is usually the most likely, I think. Two things stuck in my head when I first heard the song - that the reference to lawlessness and Kashmir placed the song on the NW frontier, and that the Beauty of Kasmir was botanical. Being the area it was, and the robbers they were, the opium poppy or the mariajuana plant are strong candidates, but the first thing I thought of was the drooping, curling fern design brought back from Kashmir by the soldiers and familiar to many as Paisley pattern.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Little Robyn
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM

I googled montbretia, just to see what it looked like. There are lots of photos on different sites including this one.
Is this what grows where the robbers retreat?
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Marje
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:39 PM

I once talked to someone who claimed that he'd seen, in a china shop, a floral patterned design that was called "Beauty of Kashmir", and that the flower depicted on the china was montbretia (crocosmus). This orange flower grows like a weed in Cornwall.

I can't vouch for this directly, I merely pass it on for your conisderation.

Marje

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM

I googled 'beauty of Kashmir' and didn't find a flower. However, Google provided 23 pages of references with the exact phrase 'beauty of Kashmir.' There might be more than 23 pages if I had kept clicking.

It is clear that 'beauty of Kashmir' has become a set phrase, rather like 'gay Paree' or 'golden Prague.'

It still might be a flower, but if so, nobody seems to be selling it at present.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:10 AM

I dropped in on the Cadgwith Cove Inn singaround (Tuesdays) a couple of weeks back and was made very welcome; I wrote about it on this thread. Nobody did the Anthem, though. It was about half-and-half trad and non- (as it often is), with some very familiar songs cropping up (as they often do). The fishermen still sing on a Friday, but I was full of a cold on the night & regretfully gave them a miss.

I had no idea Martin Winsor had had local connections; as it happens I'm listening to the Transports as I write this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Richard Goddard
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 03:23 PM

By the way, also as far as I remember, the Beauty of Kashmir is a daffodil grown in Cornwall for many years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Richard Goddard
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 03:17 PM

Mervyn (Vincent) and I were friends for years, but I don't remember him singing the Cadgwith Anthem (except in the chorus). He was generally banned from the Ringers in St Issey (except over May Day) where the extra verses emerged. My vague recollection is that I got the song from Vic Legge of Bodmin, but I may be wrong.

Anybody remember the early days when Martin Winsor and myself worked behind the bar and all those wonderful songs just went on all night? Port and Brandy in the morning to recover!

Sorry this gets nowhere nearer the origins but it's nice to reminisce!

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:50 PM

For some strange reason this song was the Watchet Football club anthem. I'm afraid I don't know from what date, or if it still is. Watchet is in Somerset on the Bristol channel coast.

Having dropped in at the folk club in Cadgwith, it was nice to find a Jeffreys concertina being played.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 08:23 AM

Mervyn Vincent sounds right. We lived in Bath in the 70's and Mervyn was a guest at the Hat and Feather Folk Club. We also saw him at the Waidbridge Club around 1976.He was good fun and had some great songs