Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems

Subject: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: sharyn
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:58 AM

Hi all,

I am a singer who plays guitar, not a guitarist's guitarist -- I know next to nothing about how a guitar works, but I have played for thirty-five years. Recently, in the recording studio, my engineer told me I didn't know how to tune, and since then I've had trouble tuning. Among the things he criticized me for were tuning with a capo in place.

Some facts:

I play an old Harmony.
I use Martin light-gauge strings
I frequently play capoed up to fifth, seventh and ninth frets because I like the way my guitar sounds capoed there.
I changed my strings on the Tuesday before the Saturday recording session.

Some opinions:

I have a pretty good ear, sing in tune, can hear pitch differences -- I've asked some professional musicians I know if I usually play out of tune and they've said "No."

BUT, since this session, what I notice, is that when I pluck a string I can hear the pitch wobble, as though the string is sounding a note, a note about a half-step lower, and then the original note again. This makes it very hard to tune because I no longer hear a constant pitch from the string.

Please don't tell me not to capo high. I'd appreciate any other thoughts and suggestions, including references to previous threads

Thanks for your help.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:07 AM

Dunno what that engineer was on about. It stands to reason that, if you're using a capo and you aren't quite in tune, you need to adjust the tuning with the capo still on. Maybe he was meaning that, if you are badly out of tune generally, it's best to tune the guitar before you put the capo on, and that makes sense.

That wobbly note bit sounds strange. Could it be that the capo is worn away or damaged so that it's not holding down the strings properly?

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: GUEST,Davy
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:21 AM

The tuning/ intonation alters when placing a capo, so it makes total sense to re-tune after putting one on.Trouble is, when people say things like that you start to doubt yourself! Trust your friends- differences you hear often cannot be heard by others!

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM

Cheaply built guitars will do that sometimes if the necks aren't true. If that is the cause you will notice (probably) that capoing on the 2d fret does not distort the tuning, while capoing on the fifth or seventh frets does.

The remedy is a rebuild by a luthier.

Assuming that is the problem.


A

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM

More than likely, your old Harmony needs work such as a possible neck set. This is not uncommon for old guitars of this variety. It's also possible that your capoing up the neck is helping improve some bad action.

I have an old Harmony Sovereign from 1963 that needed both a neck reset and some saddle shaving. Check your harmonics on the 12th fret. If they are off, your guitar needs some work.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: sharyn
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:57 AM

Thanks, so far. I remembered more precisely what the engineer said -- he said it was hell on strings to adjust the tuning with a capo on -- but I find if I am in tune without a capo by the time I capo up fifth fret or higher I am not in tune anymore and have to adjust the bass strings at least, sometimes more. Also, sometimes I make a slight change in tuning between songs, like dropping the low E to a D. I don't bother to remove a capo to do that, if I'm not otherwise changing where I play the song. Should I rethink that?

The Harmony had its neck adjusted after I got it, but that was a long time ago -- should I have it checked?

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 12:21 PM

No expert here, but also a (minimal) guitarist of many years...and I'd address cheapest poss. problems first. New strings. Just recently a buzz developed on a new guitar...took it back to a luthier who finally determined that that (new) string was bad). Also try a new capo...different capo. And of course 12th fret harmonics check pretty definitive.

I agree, don't let OP tell you about what you know already. I've been given a bad time for years for avoiding electronic tuners, but for me, my voice and my guitars, tuning by ear---with occasional ref. to good pitch pipe--works best. Especially with my Martin there is so much nuance and resonance that those stupid little green and red lights just can't seem to make up their minds.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: GLoux
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 01:24 PM

I think you need a recording engineer who is more supportive and less critical of his customers.

There really is no right way or wrong way, IMHO. On the other hand there are habits that one acquires over time. If I were to drop the low E string one whole step (which is not a slight change, in my opinion), I would probably take the capo off first, drop the string, put the capo back on and then fine tune it with the capo on. In my mind doing such a drop with the capo on would eventually cause wear on the capo's rubber padding.

If you think your tuning is "moving around" then take it to a reputable luthier and ask for an opinion...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 01:44 PM

If you are playing and singing reguarly, you can and should probably trust your ear.

I know how rustiness and self-doubt can both hurt your ability to tune up. When I started playing again several years ago after a long period of relative inactivity, I found that tuning was one of the hardest things to relearn. Now I'm playing/practicing almost every day, but still have some difficulty tuning up accurately and quickly. I know what you're talking about when you say you hear the note wavering -- I sometimes have the same experience, but I think it's our imaginations, the problem being caused by indecision and lack of confidence.

Years ago, when I was playing almost constantly, I had gotten to the point where I could tune up accurately without even using a pitchpipe. I had thought the "perfect pitch" was something you either were born with or would never develop, but learned otherwise. If you involve yourself with music almost every waking moment of every day, you eventually recognize and remember what every note and/or every chord is supposed to sound like. It's easy to forget, unfortunately, and once I had reverted to a less fanatical playing schedule, I soon lost the ability to tune up with a reference (pitchpipe), and eventually lost much of my ability to tune up at all, even with help.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:54 PM

You could try using an electronic tuner to check whether that wobbly note stuff is in your head or in the guitar.

I've found since I've been using an electronic guitar that I now find it much easier to tune without one than I did before. I'd have assumed it'd work the other way. I think the explanatin is that using the tuner fixes the accurate note in my head. Before, unless I was playing with other people, I'd rely on relative tuning, which meant that the strings might in fact be way off standard pitch.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: sharyn
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:04 PM

All good points, giving me a range of things to investigate. Now, can anyone refer me to a thread or other source on basic guitar maintenance: guidelines for when to change strings, is it important to wipe the fretboard, capo care, etc. Now that I've played for thirty-five years, it's time to learn to take care of my instrument (I know, I know, it was probably time long ago, but there was no one around I knew who knew anything when I started to play).

Thanks, everybody. Keep the suggestions coming.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Bert
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:28 PM

One would expect to have to retune when using a capo. That's the nature of the beast.

But ...when I pluck a string I can hear the pitch wobble... Hmm that's bad, first thing I'd look at, would be to see if the neck was securely attached. If it is then maybe you need to keep your eyes open for a new guitar.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:08 AM

Just on the subject, i've found this quite useful

http://guitar-masters.com/Tuneup.html

Also, I'd say that if it sounds right to you, it probably is! If it doesn't, it may be something simple like needing new strings, i would try that before getting the guitar seen to.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:17 AM

That wobble could be a sign that the string tension is too low. If you always use a capo, why not experiment with a heavier gauge? You will also get better sustain (and tone). I agree with an earlier post, when tuning your E to D (and back), remove the capo to avoid damage to the capo and the adjacent frets. Depending on the profile of the frets, placing a capo can sharpen the tuning. The higher the profile and the closer the capo gets to the fret, the sharper it will be. Ideally, you need to get the capo parallel to the fret and only as close to the fret as needed to prevent sting buzz. This lessens the effect of the strings being pulled sharply over the fret and therefore reduces the sharpening effect. Placing the capo right behind the fret will eventually weaken the strings at that point. The choice of capo makes a difference too. A Keyser or Shubb when applied correctly will not move the strings across the fretboard and therefore will help prevent problems with tuning. Some capos have a tendency to slide across the fretboard when applied therefore upsetting the tuning.

If you have been playing for 35 years, I would sooner trust your word and the comments of other musicians than a sound engineer.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 06:31 AM

All good advice, but I don't believe in tuning with the capo in place. Too often the strings just dont move enough under that pressure. If it goes sharp when you apply a clamp, the action is too high. You can determine that by checking the intonation at the 12th fret.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 06:47 AM

Get a good setup - it's not generally a lot of money - locally we have a luthier who charges £15.00 - £20.00 and gives you what feels like a new guitar.

Incidentally, he uses 13's as normal on acoustic guitars; he says that light strings are often used to compensate for poor setup.

Stu

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

...The higher the profile and the closer the capo gets to the fret, the sharper it will be. Ideally, you need to get the capo parallel to the fret and only as close to the fret as needed to prevent sting buzz. This lessens the effect of the strings being pulled sharply over the fret and therefore reduces the sharpening effect. Placing the capo right behind the fret will eventually weaken the strings at that point. ...

Sorry Peter, but that is just plain bollocks.

Ideally, the capo should be placed as near to the fret as possible, almost on top in fact. The critical thing is to have the capo adjusted so that only enough pressure is exerted to seat the string firmly on the fret, it does not have to be depressed all the way to the fretboard. The further from the fret the capo is placed, the greater the mechanical advantage and the greater the likelihood of the string going out of tune.

As far as your observations about weakening the string is concerned, words fail me ...

Any serious guitarist will have changed the strings long before any hypothetical "weakening" could possibly take effect.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:53 AM

If the pitch changes when you put the capo on, before you do anything else(like having your neck reset or firing your engineer) you should change capos--

I have had the best luck with Shubb, which is designed not to pull the string out of tune when it clamps-there are other designed to do this as well, and I won't argue about which is best, but cheap capos do pull strings out of tune when they are fastened on, and that is likely your problem--

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:11 PM

It is possible that what the engineer referred to is that tuning with the capo in place is sliding the string under the capo pad, and thus wearing grooves in the capo, which then cannot hold the strings as well as when new. I know that this happens.

Another thought is that tuning with the capo in place preferentially tightens the string between the capo and bridge. Then, as playing goes on, the tension difference between capo-to-bridge and nut-to-capo evens out, letting the string go flat. I'm not saying this actually happens, but I can envision it happening.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: mooman
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:18 PM

I wrote a long tome on this yesterday but when I pressed "Submit" it disappeared into some sort of anomaly in the fabric of space-time and was lost to this universe. I will therefore try to recollect my thoughts on the basis of experience fixing these problems and post again soon!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM

If I may...Assuming that set-up and intonation while playing without a capo is fine, it shouldn't be much trouble to tune with a capo on unless the action is a tad high. High action or not, tune with a decent adjustable capo in place, release capo to allow the string tension to stablise, tweak the tuning with the capo replaced and Bob's your uncle. No more time than screwing around with it any other way, and likely less. The temporary grinding of strings against fingerboard and frets while tuning with a capo on isn't appreciably more than when playing at the same fret for a very brief period.

Just my opinion.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: sharyn
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:49 PM

Thanks all,

I do use a Shubb capo, but possibly I've been wearing it out by tuning with it on. I rarely play this guitar without capoing on at least fourth fret because I don't like the guitar's sound without the capo -- it sounds dull to me.

Re: light-gauge strings: I was told that they were easier on guitars and since I sometimes play in unusual tunings -- in an open G tuning where I tune my sixth string up to G, for example -- I've been using light strings to save stress on my guitar. If this is just plain wrong from a technical standpoint, go ahead and tell me. I've never experimented with strings much -- used to use Black Diamond on my previous guitar, went on to Martin Lights and have never looked again. I tend to like a mellow sound, as opposed to a bright sound. My playing style leans heavily on the first three strings and not much on the bass strings. I pick, almost never strum, and use bare fingers, never a pick of any sort. Which is probably far more than any of you need to know.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:00 PM

Rick Fielding put some very interesting (and need I say it, highly authoritative) stuff on here about capoing up a while back. I don't know enough about looking for stuff on here but, if you can find it, read and trust it. Rick was the consummate professional, immensely skilled in his craft and a great store of knowledge. He also put out some excellent stuff about sympathetic tuning, and it absolutely works (but you need an Ear).

SJ :0)

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:02 PM

Maybe you need to find a good guitar tech to make a new nut for your machine. Or it could be you need new tuners (pegs). Or perhaps just a good set-up. Try your favorite local music store. They should be able to recommend somebody or perhaps have someone on staff to do the job.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: sharyn
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

The guitar has Grover tuners -- when I bought it, it had a broken tuning peg, so I had them changed then. What is a "set-up," please?

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM

Ditto about Rick's advice.

If you're gonna tune that 6th string up to G, don't go heavier than light guage and if you're gonna leave it that high use an extra light string unless the guitar is braced heavier than most. (The other open G tuning is DGDGBD, fwiw.)

Regarding that dull sound. Have you tried replacing the tuners, nut, saddle and even the string pins? It may make a difference with a better or different material. If you were in southern Ontario I'd help you myself, but an assessment by a decent tech/luthier would help.

Good luck.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM

A set-up involves adjusting the truss rod, saddle and nut to make sure intonation is right on the guitar, especially for your playing style and preferred string guage. Any decent guitar tech can handle it fairly easily and quickly; I even know a few on-staff techs that will throw a set-up in with a new pack of strings as a goodwill gesture (they want you to come back to their store for strings, picks, accessories; that's where their big profit is made... not on big ticket items like instruments ususually).

More serious problems may require a neck reset or refret job. These are more serious considerations and cost more of course. And they also mean your axe will be out of action for a little while. The advice of a good luthier or guitar repairman/tech will be invaluable, as has been suggested above.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM

Set up = dress and level frets, check relief (curve) of fingerboard, check height of saddle and nut, check depth and acceracy of string notches.

Anything else is probably a repair eg refret, plane fingerboard etc.


Stu

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: Bert
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:14 PM

When you put on a capo you change the tension needed to hold down the strings. So when you play a scale using some of the new 'pretend open strings' it will be wrong and you'll need to tweak a string here or there.

Also The Equally Tempered scale on a guitar will make things sound wrong in the new position.

You say you like the sound of the guitar better when using the capo. Perhaps you might want to play around with some different instruments, Say Tenor Guitar, or Bouzouki, or parlour guitar or even a half size student guitar.

And I'd go with what PoppaGator said. "Trust your ear"

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 08:28 AM

One thought about that note you're hearing. There's a thing called "sympathetic vibration", which means that when you pluck one string, all the others will try and resonate as well. Usually this isn't too bad, but if there's a harmonic on another string which matches the note you're playing, the other string will resonate strongly. This reaches its upper limit with things like mandolins where there are two strings tuned to the same note.

So what you're hearing could be one of the other strings resonating. This could be what's making you think the note is changing - the harmonic on the other string will die away quicker. Try damping the other 5 strings with your left hand while you tune each one, and see if the problem persists.

Another possible reason is that it's just how the guitar string behaves when you pluck it. I hear something that resembles what you describe on my classical (and on other guitars, although less so) when I hit an open string hard, which is obviously what you're doing for tuning. The string naturally wants to resonate at a frequency that has it static at the ends and with a peak in the middle. When you pluck the string though, you're not plucking at the middle of the string, so that pluck has started another frequency with a peak where your fingernail hit the string. Your fingernail doesn't keeping striking the string, so this second frequency vanishes pretty quickly, but it's still there.

Another source of frequency wobbling when you hit a note is that when the string resonates, it's under more tension - instead of being straight, the string is now being forced to wobble 1mm or so to either side. This can pull the note sharper in the same way as a string bend, and it's most noticeable if you pick hard with a plectrum.

McGrath's advice of using an electronic tuner is good. They're dirt cheap these days (£15-20 for a decent one) so no reason not to get one. Make sure you get a chromatic one - the EADGB guitar-only ones are a waste of time.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guitar Tuning/Intonation Problems
From: sharyn
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 10:10 AM

This is great: so many ideas, so many angles, ao many things to try. Thanks all.