Looking 4 special violin peg

Subject: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 12:31 PM

For some odd reason not understood by Mister or myself, The Wind and Rain (or, as we affectionately call it, The Dead Girl Song) has become extremely popular among our teeny tiny legion of fans. It never fails that when we perform somewhere, somebody will say, Sing the Dead Girl Song.

Anyhow... since the Dead Girl's finger bone gets made into a fiddle peg, I thought, how cool would it be to have a bone peg, or something that looks like a bone peg. But I can't find anything because most pegs are ebony or rosewood! If I could find a naked peg made from a light-colored wood, I could work with that.

Does anyone know where I could find such a thing, or is there anyone here willing to make me one for a fair price?

Thanks ---

Kim C

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JenEllen
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 12:45 PM

Is this for the fiddle you are going to be playing? It's got to be functional and not just cosmetic? If that's the case, could you just sort of 'decorate' the exhisting peg? Perhaps whittle the thumb grip into a crude hinge-joint and just paint a light wash on the outer areas that don't come in contact with the fiddle? I wonder if you switch woods, how consistent your tuning would be. I'm sure your fans would rather hear the good song than get the gimmick, ya know? *g* Cool idea, though. I gotta see my luthier today, I'll ask for his recommendations.
~JE

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 12:57 PM

The gimmick is really more for me. :-)

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

Pick up some likely cow bones and you'll have a project in carving for the whole of winter!!

A

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

Actually, most of the fiddle pegs I've seen (looking only at the really cheap places I patronize) are seldom made of ebony. It's just too expensive. The common appears to be hard maple, or similar hardwood, dyed black to look like ebony.

A good luthier should have a matched set of reamer/shaver tools to ream the holes and to shave the peg to exactly matched tapers. (These tools are somewhat expensive, so some make do with just the reamer, and rely on "store-bought" peg taper to match.) If you can find someone with a good shaver, and can cut a piece of hardwood dowel close but slightly oversize, you should be able to get whatever you whittle turned into a peg. You'd probably want to be sure that your luthier is agreeable, and suitably equipped, before you spend a lot of time making your finger bone.

While it's possible to lathe turn a peg taper, the requirement that you get the right taper and a perfectly round form at the same time makes it rather touchy. Using a peg that isn't properly formed is likely to make tuning difficult and cause unwanted wear on the peg holes.

John

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 01:34 PM

John, you're probably right - but they pretty much all refer to them as "ebony."

Come to think of it, I know someone who might be able to tackle that for me, but I also know he'll probably do it the way HE wants to instead of the way I want it done! ;-)

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM

First, I'd try Southwest Strings. They have a website. Then, next, Elderly Music. They have a website too. If all else fails, try using light oak or birch and carve your own. Have the Luthier finish shaping the peg and reaming/tapering the hole. DO NOT USE PINE. I have seen very light coloured friction pegs...think they were birch.

Or, just take one of your pegs off and try soaking it in a Clorox/water solution for a few days. IF it lightens up, be SURE to let it dry out completely before putting it back on the fiddle. You might sand it lightly with steel wool too, as water tends to raise the grain.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: s&r
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 06:18 PM

These might help with modification and a good bank balance

Stu

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM

I do wood turning, and can usually match any shape I have a model of. I have turned Ivory, and have Corian (artifical material) available....but somone local who regularly does violin pegs is the best bet.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 08:00 PM

Didn't see any white ones, there Stu....??

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:15 PM

But Luthier's Mercantile is a reputable outfit. The guys I deal with locally admit that theirs are just "ebony colored."

"Ebony" is a pretty generic term, less specific than it once was. It is possible that they have pegs from a related tree. I just hadn't seen them in local shops.

The "bone" flamenco pegs would have the right color, but don't seem to have much spare material to make a finger shape on. Or maybe I just don't have the right mental picture of what's intended.

John

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:46 PM

when I do Ebony, it is always Diospyros spp. There are several Ebonys, but the real black stuff is usually Diospyros crassiflora or Gabon Ebony.

There are a couple of pretty 'white' woods which could give a bone color..i.e. Holly, but some real bone, or Ivory, or light antler would be best choice...

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:01 AM

I once had a very hard look at whether the activity in this song would be possible - and I mean the use of more human material than just the finger bone. The conclusion was that bone used in any part of the instrument would be too brittle to withstand any kind of string tension - and this included the pegs.

I think using white paint of some kind would be the best solution.

So far I have found that only some minor Buddhist sects made instruments out of dead people and it had something to do with letting the dead speak (but I could be wrong there).

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: s&r
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:04 AM

Sorcha - bone wasn't illustrated in the link, but was in the price table for twenty some dollars per peg

Stu

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:04 AM

..."The conclusion was that bone used in any part of the instrument would be too brittle to withstand any kind of string tension - and this included the pegs"....

Who came to this conclusion, Sarah?

Did you do any experimentation ?

As long as the bone doesn't come from the remains of an osteoporosis sufferer, I am willing to bet that bone will easily withstand the tension of a violin string.

Many years ago I wanted to inlay my son's milk teeth into my guitar fretboard. My wife thought it was ghoulish, and forbade it.

I still wish I had done it ...

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Vixen
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:14 AM

I just recently watched a jazz fiddler at Monterey who had an ivory colored Maltese cross for one of her tuning pegs. Can't recall her name, but her playing and the tuning peg were both memorable.

V

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:16 AM

I've asked various instrument makers about it - hence the conclusion.

Don't fancy experimentation personally (I'm a veggie)!

Don't suppose inlay matters, it would not take the weight of anything!

I agree with your wife.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:42 AM

Sarah, the total tension on the strings of a full-size violin tuned to concert pitch is 51 pounds. That means that at least one of the strings requires a tension of less than 13 lbs to bring it up to pitch.

I cannot believe that a torquing force of only 13 lbs would be sufficient to snap a peg made of bone, so I can only conclude that the instrument makers you consulted just didn't fancy the hassle of making one.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:44 AM

Firstly I didn't ask them to make one - that is just too yucky.

Secondly, we were talking about human bone specifically. The references in the song were to breast bone, ribs and knuckle bones.

Maybe other bone is more dense and therefore better!

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM

Sarah, I don't think that Kim C (who originated the thread) was contemplating using actual human bone for a violin peg. In your own words, that would be "just too yucky". Besides, where would you source it from ? The mind boggles ...

So, the question of whether human bone would or would not withstand the tension will probably remain for ever theoretical.

The ideal bone for the purpose would be from an alligator, as this is the densest and strongest bone known to mankind.

In case of unavailability of alligator bone, cow-bone(upper thigh) would be a perfectly acceptable substitute.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:44 AM

Let me clarify.

I just want a light-colored fiddle peg that might give the impression of being made of bone. It doesn't have to be shaped like a finger, nor does it actually have to be made from any sort of bone. It's just sort of a little joke, is all, just for fun. :-)

Something like birch or maple could be antiqued to look like bone, but I haven't seen anything like that.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:31 AM

Hi Kim,

I had enquired about whether human bone was possible, motivated by presumably the same song that you had in mind, because I have an enquiring mind and I have a journalistic bent...not because I have some ghoulish intent.

By heck, this has been a fascinating thread though...

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:41 AM

There are several "plastics," both thermoset and thermoplastics, that are commonly used to simulate ivory. The thermoplastics are likely to "creep" too much under even minimal load, but one of the harder thermoset varieties could probably be used to make a serviceable peg. My recollection is that one I've seen is/was sold under the trade name "Ivoroid" or something like that. The problem here is that purchasing raw stock - even if you could find a supplier - in the small quantity needed for a peg, or set of pegs, would probably be prohibitively expensive, so you'd want to look for something a little bigger than a peg that's made out of an appropriate looking material and that's expendable. Is it bad luck to slice up an old buddha?

The "practical" approach would probably be just to use the best hard white wood you can locate, and find someone willing to experiment for/with you.

You might also try just painting a peg white; but most paint, even stuff like the epoxy enamels, tends to be "gummy" under contact loads. A possible "paint" that might work, in a very thin layer, is the "porcelain patch" stuff that's used for hiding scratches in your sink. It dries very hard and could perhaps be sanded to a good surface if applied in thin - and even enough - layers.

John

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:17 PM

Somewhere in my boxes of so called junk is a set of violin pegs made of , I assume a plastic material, but looks like ivory. When I get an opportunity I will have a look for them and post. You can email me an address and they will be yours for the shipping charge.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:51 PM

Having done some further research, apparently I was mistaken in thinking that alligator bone was the densest bone known. (Somebody had told me that in a bar in Miami, and naturally I believed him implicitly)

Apparently the densest bone is to be found in the bones which make up the hearing apparatus of the mature whale. They grow denser the older they get.

Much like me ...

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:00 PM

Never underestimate the power of nail polish, Kim. Just on the part not actually going thru the peg hole, of course. If you are REALLY creative you can antique a faux texture, and maybe make the peg head a trompe l'oeil knuckle. Rough up the peg a bit first with sandpaper to be sure the polish sticks, and clear-coat it when done. And viola! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

Hmmmm..... lots of ideas here.

HiHo, let me know if you find those. It would be worth paying the shipping just to see what I might be able to use them for!

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:12 PM

HiHo -

I've seen a number of "toy instruments" with the white plastic pegs, but none I can recall that were full size fiddle scale. The ones I remember might be big enough for a 1/2 or 5/8 scale fiddle. Still, one never knows what might be waiting at the next antique mall, yard sale, flea market, etc - or in a friend's junk/parts box.

Perhaps the appropriate prop for the song could be a "display only" smaller (toy?) fiddle, which could be really gruesomely decked out - far beyond what you'd want to do to a playable one. Just something to hang before the audience as you begin - or end - the song????

John

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 04:26 PM

Baking or boiling bone makes it likely to shatter into splinters - hence the warnings not to give dogs cooked bone, but that would seem to indicate that uncooked bone has a different - less brittle nature?

It also implies that using machinery on bone would not be a good idea, as sterilisation with heat would make it brittle, but tiny particles of non sterile bone would not be something I would like to breathe in.

I knew someone who leached the Calciom Phosphate out of a long bone from a cow and tied it in a half hitch when it got soft enough.

I do have to cut down the holly tree growing by the kitchen window - it is far too close to the house, so if you want some of the wood, I could post it though I live in England I wouldn't think that sending enough for a violin peg would be all that expensive, even Air Mail

Anne

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JenEllen
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:04 PM

Just checking in to see the news, but had to say I LMAO, Murray. Been there.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:55 PM

Haven't had an opportunity to look for the pegs yet. Note however the discussion on bone for use as pegs. For what it is worth. Antlers from deer, elk or moose etc.   is very strong and I have no doubt would be great for making violin pegs. It is solid and when machined is ivory color. Has been used for many things over the years such as knife handles, awls and various tools. Perhaps I will turn out a peg if I ever get a few minutes, just to see what it's charasterics will be.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:04 PM

Having made a couple of attempts to get small parts out of "home made" bone, I can attest that it's not the nicest stuff to work with. I'm also a little dubious that good bone stock big enough for a fiddle peg would be easy to find. I haven't had experience with antler materials, but suspect it's more suitable, if it can be made smooth enough to not eat at the pegholes.

Just as a check, I did a brief search for imitation ivory. As expected, most returns are for purfling and binding strips, in sizes much too small for use here. ONE possible source turned up that, if not useful here might be of interest to some of our general craftspersons:

K&G Knife and Gun Finishing Supplies

At that site, I found:

Alternative Ivory, cast polyester, 1 3/8" x 4 1/2" rod at $13.75 each.

"New" Imitation Ivory, epoxy based, 1" x 1 1/2" x 5 1/2" at $20.00 each.

The sizes linked are those that looked big enough for a peg or two. The same outfit has some pretty exotic bone and horn materials, but very few things large enough for pegs. As with many web marketers, they don't say where they are; but I assume those are US dollars.

I didn't identify any "primary" sources for the materials, and the only other places I found parts big enough to chop up for pegs were bagpipe builders (size questionable, but it sounds like a good idea) and a couple of gunstock makers.

John

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:06 PM

Kim, if you decide you want to use antler...let me know. We usually get a set every year, deer.

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:05 AM

... but not too dear, dear...

Subject: RE: Looking 4 special violin peg
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 09:26 PM

Sorry, Only found bits and pieces of the violin pegs.
They were definitely a very hard plastic material apparently made to simulate ivory. I must have cut them up at some point in time for inlay material as position markers or some foolish notion. One never knows when one man's junk is another man's treasure.