5 string banjo in English folk

Subject: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST,Jim R in Ripponden
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 03:45 PM

Now i had just about figured how to do my favourite snappy droning tunes on the guitar when my wife bought me a 5 string banjo for my birthday. Tuned to G I can do most of the guitar stuff but somehow it isn't right. Bluegrass is Ok and it is fun to do but it just doesn't get through the same way.
Does anyone know much about the contibution that the 5 string banjo can make to traditional English style playing? Where can I find good stuff to play?

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 03:47 PM

Listen to some of Peggy Seeger's banjo accompaniments to Ewan MacColl's singing.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM

Dunno about folk music, but if you can read music, there's plenty of English stuff from the beginning of the last century or thereabouts.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 04:23 PM

Shirley Collins used to use 5-string for song accompaniment; very simply but it worked. Since you're in Ripponden, though, you should have a word with Pete Coe, who uses the instrument in English music and knows what he's about. The Ryburn Three Step folk club meets at the the Alma Inn, Cottonstones, on the last Tuesday of each month, and they also run regular sessions in the area. See http://www.ryburn3step.org.uk/

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 04:58 PM

5-string banjo first became popular in the British Empire as a parlour instrument in late Victorian times. Looked from that point of view any track record in accompanying "Traditional English " folk music is limited.
Looked at another way - irish musicians using a bouzuki for accompaniment is even less authentic but is widely accepted.
looked from another point of view, a lot of "Traditional American Old-Time" songs and tunes were originally imported by English, Irish and Scottish settlers. Such songs can work well on banjo.
As a player, I agree that simple banjo accompaniments often work better behind a voice than something too complex. Simple accompaniments allow the singing voice to add something to the song which is not possible when the instrument swamps the voice.
Listen to Mike Harding singing "July Wakes" for a good example.
Quack!!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: PennyBlack
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 06:37 PM

Ian Campbell Folk Group..

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 06:47 PM

How trad do you want to be? Seems to me like the 5 string hit the UK nearly the same time it became popular in the US. People bought them and bent them to a need. Gow and O'Carolan didn't write any tunes for the 5 String but I have heard Morgan Megan done one.

John Roberts plays many trad British tunes on a 5 String and it sounds "right". John, Frails or Clawhammers everything he plays. Dog and Gun immediately comes to mind, and just about any Fo'csle Shanty in 2/3 or 4/4 time fits too. "New York Girls" and "Get Up Jack John Sit Down" are two I know he does that way.

Don

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 07:11 PM

Do you sing Jim? I agree about the idea of a simple style of banjo accompaniment for voice. My True-love taught me a 2 finger style which is easy and quite versatile. I never have mastered rolls but I can play melodies and with a few runs it's quite effective. I do all sorts of old songs this way. I went from guitar to banjo and it's a whole different feel. I found it easier to not think guitar and start out afresh.
Here in Australia, during the 19th century, (and although I've not studied this I think probably also in the UK) alongside the use of 5 string banjo for "parlour songs" and instrumental pieces, there were players teaching "American style banjo". They played "minstrel songs" mostly though, so this puts us back to American songs as being the ones that seem to work best. Anyway good luck Jim. It's a great adventure. Banjos are fun. Joy

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 07:36 PM

Jim - Drag your banjo up to the Globe in Guisborough on the 15th and 16th of October for Tigs Burpday bash . There are at least three different banjo thumpers going to be there , and none of US play Bluegrass !!!!

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM

It is amazing what changing a note can do. Clawhamer is a real option for you to learn but no matter what >> for all those great dorian tunes and songs I would say try adding a C note   on the second string instead of the B , . This tuning (gDGCD)is called Saw-Mill Tuning in older circles. To hear it listen to Tim Hart's clawhammer banjo in Skew Ball or Black Leg minner or Mad Tom of Bedlem all from early Steen Eye Span . THat G sus 4 Tuning is very good for old English dance tunes on Guitar as well. I just worked up " Mr Beverage's Maggot " using ( DGDGCD ) on guitar   . Have fun with it . Later you can do the same with D tuning . Its how I found everyones old faverite ( DADGAD ) .
               Some day Leadfingers..... Cant wait to meet you all .       All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM

Banjo's certainly no less traditional than guitar for accompanying English song. :-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:09 AM

If you go to Ripponden folk club, talk to Pete Coe or Vic Gammon, both are fine banjo players/singers.

eric

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:56 AM

Not English folk, but the way Margaret Barry and Michael Gorman did Irish songs was fantastic, on banjo and fiddle.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:30 PM

Not English folk either, but Scotsman Iain MacKintosh used a 5-string long-neck banjo to accompany his songs in a style very much his own. You may still be able to find some of his recordings, or get them from Greentrax.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM

The modal tuning GUY WOLFF mentions works really well for a number of Celtic tunes. I especially like playing "Coleraine" in this tuning.

There are also a great number of tunes that can be played on the 5 string using "melodic style" picking. Three books that I would recommend if you want to try the melodic style are:

"IRISH JIGS FOR MELODIC STYLE 5 STRING" by Harold Streeter
    This book has arrangements for solo and duet banjo/s ~ a lot of work   
    but worth the effort
"MELODIC BANJO" by Tony Trischka
"MELODIC STYLE 5 STRING BANJO" by Neil Griffin (a Mel Bay pub.)

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: treewind
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM

Try Rob Murch - fine English 5 string banjo!

Anahata

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:38 PM

I recently saw Ken Lees at the Old Rose & Crown and he took my breath away with his wonderful banjo playing. And it was VERY English.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 04:23 AM

I saw Mary Humphries whe she used to play at Ripponden Folk club, brilliant singer and banjo player. [ and a lot more ]

eric

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 04:25 AM

Sorry I spelled your name wrong.

And where has my cookie gone

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

Thanks Eric - don't worry about the spelling, especially when you say such nice things....
Hope you find your cookie soon.
Mary

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:17 AM

Ripponden folk club at that time must have had the best residents ever, Mary, Pete Coe, Vic Gammon, Chris Coe, John Adams, Annie Dearman and a lot more.

My wife used to do the door.

eric

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST,Jim R in Ripponden
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:38 PM

Well just in case any of you ever look back in here I just wanted to say thanks for all your comments. I appreciate the time you took and I have learned something. Now maybe the missus will be able to complain about my tuneless banjo playing as well as my tuneless guitar playing.

Jim

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 08:18 PM

"Tuneless" !!!?? - ah, er, ooops, I think somebody is missing the point somewhere...

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 04:59 AM

Tuneless banjo ? surely an oxymoron.

eric

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 10:54 AM

No, Eric -- a tautology!

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:12 AM

Oh.

eric

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST,Jim R
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:01 AM

I recant.

Tasteless, this is a matter of opinion of course since it is to my taste.

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:26 PM

So any way Jim - ARE you coming up to Guisborough next weekend ?

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:57 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about what is or isn't traditional because the definition changes every couple of years .

Try frailing. It's simple, works for anything (even fiddle tunes) and works great for backup and lead.

Most of all you can learn it for free. http://funkyseagull.com/book/tao.html

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST,Vic Gammon
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:34 AM

Thanks for the nice comments, Eric, but I do not play the five string banjo (although I would like to if I had time to devote to it). I play the plectrum G banjo - OK, it is a five string banjo with the fifth string removed. I play it melodically and chordally but often use a combination of the two. I find it works really well.

The banjo became popular in England from about the 1840s and was probably the most popular instrument of the nineteenth century. It came in from the US with black-faced minstrelsy. It was played in a number of ways. Rob Murch is a master of the 'classical' style, which I think developed in the late nineteenth century, but it was also played, as I do it, with a plectrum. There is no record of it having been played in the Appalachian style in this country until the advent of the folk revival - but you never know! There are plenty of old pictures of banjos being played with concertinas and melodeons which is the combination I like. The instruments seem to fit together really well. My good friend Pete Coe plays five string banjo in what I take to be a conventional US way, but he is pretty darn good at it.

Interesting fact: Cecil Sharp is reputed to have taught himself the banjo on the voyage over to Australia as a young man. His father sent him there because he got a lousy degree and did not have much in the way of career prospects. There are pictures of Cecil playing the pipe and tabour and the piano, even a film of him dancing (and getting it wrong) but I would to see a picture of him with his banjo.

Sounds like a great thesis to me 'The Banjo in English Vernacular Music, 1840-2004' - anyone want to come and do it with me? I don't have time to do it myself but I would love to supervise it.

There is a great book on the banjo in America: Karen Linn, 'That Half-Barbaric Twang'.

Best wishes, Vic Gammon

Dr Vic Gammon
Senior Lecturer in Folk and Traditional Music
International Centre for Music Studies
School of Arts and Cultures
Armstrong Building
The University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 02:51 AM

Which ever banjo you play Vic, it fits in well and sounds good.
It seems sort of typically [ or traditionally ] English.

eric

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: Uke
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 08:33 PM

Just a sidebar to this discussion... there's an interesting article here about Ray Andrews, a 'classic' English banjo player...

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: LesB
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:08 AM

Just touching on the subject, but we have had an e-mail from Dave Arthur indicating that he and Art Rosenbaum are coming to Liverpool this weekend, and are intending to come to our singers night on Sunday. Us being the Bothy Folk Club, Southport
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: 5 string banjo in English folk
From: GUEST,Mike Feist
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:19 AM

Try and get to hear Kate Lissauer - a wonderful old-time musician and now resident somewhere down in Somerset - and her version of Tifty's Annie [on 'Ain't No Grave' CD].