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Origins: The Dodger Song
DigiTrad:
THE DODGER SONG
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Subject: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM It's here in the database under this title. Not to be confused with the song about draft dodging.(Sorry I thought I'd mastered clickies but I haven't). The Almanac Singers recorded it. It was collected by several people including Vance Randolph. Sometimes it's called "We're All Dodging". It is based on an earlier song - according to some sources from the singing of Oklahoma farmers. I've been researching a certain 19th Century character for about 6 years now and in the process I came across this little piece of information. From about the 1840s many performers, among them Sam Cowell, John Lawrence Toole and George Coppin, were including a character in their acts called "The Artful Dodge(er)" (The same fellow Dickens used) His song was called "We're all Dodging". Sam Cowell and George Coppin (and most likely others) took this character from the UK to America. George Coppin used him in Australia. Here in Australia a song called "We're all Cheating" seems to be related. Anyway I believe this song comes from the singing of these early Musichall performers - for what it's worth. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: GUEST,Sandy Paton Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM I believe the version of "The Dodger Song" sung by the Almanac Singers came from Emma Dusenberry in Mena, Arkansas, probably by way of Lee Hayes, who worked at the Commonwealth School in Mena for a time. If my memory is faulty, which is altogether possible, I'm sure the information is available via SING OUT! archives. I'm delighted to have the information provided by Joybell above. I'd no idea the song had British music hall antecedents. By coincidence, my father was raised in Mena, Arkansas, and all of my summer vacations were spent there in the mid-1930s. My grandparents never mentioned the presence of a "radical" school in their Ozark community, but they wouldn't have approved, even if they'd known of it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Billy the Bus Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:09 AM G'day Joybell - Well done. The Almanac Singers' version takes me back a few years. Here's a link to the words and music, as sung by Lucy Quigley in 1958 - defininitly an American version. Alas the spring on my gramophone's broke, so I can't play the Almanac record, and my computer sound system is kapuy, so I can't hear Lucy. I'm having to rely on memory. But, the tune and the tenor of the words certainly have a 'Music Hall' ring to them. Nice to think the song may have evolved from Dickens (in a round about way). Will follow what others say with interest. Cheers 0 Sam |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:32 AM "The Artful Dodger" is quite well-known, since the Dickens book is (I should say was) just as popular on this side of big salty. The Bodleian have a version which they attribute to Sam Cowell, Firth c.17(139), and another, printed with it, called "The Dodger," which speaks of going to Australia. In the sense of trickery, 'dodger' goes back to the 1500s, so it is possible to throw a very wide loop and encompass all songs about dodging in the sense of trickery. It is quite a stretch, however, from the songs about the Dickensian and the 'Cowellian' dodger, to the dodging encompassed in the American songs which imply that "We're all dodging." Cowell and the other performers of his type who came to America, as well as their American counterparts, would have quickly picked up the sense of the American dodger songs- if the songs had been in existence at the time. The 'we are all dodgers'- including people supposedly leading respectful, prosperous lives- type of lyrics seem to have come later. It will be interesting if you can show the transition. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 08 Oct 04 - 06:52 PM Thank you Sandy, Billy and Q. Just a few more points: Sam Cowell was raised in America from the age of 2. (Although he was born in England). He returned to England at the age of 18, but his early influences were in the American South. It will be George Coppin who was responsible for the Australian references, I believe. He said he wrote "We're All Dodging" but they all claimed to have written the songs they sang. I really think he did at least re-write it. Charles Dickens was a good friend of John Lawrence Toole. They walked the streets of London together looking for "characters". Dickens also frequented the musichalls where Sam Cowell and others performed. It is indeed a tangled story, but the performers playing "The Dodger" do seem to have taken him from London to Ireland, America and Australia. I'll be delighted if someone comes up with an earlier "Dodger" in America. I enjoy puzzles like this one. I'll post the words to "We're All Cheating" Cheers Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 04 - 07:30 PM Joy, it would probably help to post "We're All Cheating" and any other related songs in this thread. Best thing is to change the message title to the title of the song - but I change that automatically if I see it's missing. I have to say I was a bit disappointed in what you siad. I had always thought, Dickens notwithstanding, this was one of the true American songs. It's always been a bit of a mystery to me. It will be interesting to see what comes up - even if it's proof that the song is really from Ireland... Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry: Dodger, TheDESCRIPTION: Comments on the less-than-honest nature of various professionals: "Oh the (candidate's) a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Yes, the (candidate's) a dodger and I'm a dodger too. For we're all dodging... Our way through the world"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1930 (Randolph) KEYWORDS: political trick FOUND IN: US(SE,So) REFERENCES (5 citations): Randolph 462, "We're All Dodging" (1 text) BrownIII 333, "The Dodgers" (1 text, less political than some; candidates are not mentioned) Botkin-AmFolklr, pp. 875-876, "The Dodger" (1 text, 1 tune) Silber-FSWB, pp. 24-25, "The Dodger Song" (1 text) DT, DODGRSNG* Roud #3758 RECORDINGS: Almanac Singers, "The Dodger Song" (General 5019B, 1941; on Almanac01, Almanac03, AlmanacCD1) Neil Morris, "Corn Dodgers" (on LomaxCD1706) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "We're All A-Singing" (lyrics, form) File: R462 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2004 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. I feel see somewhat vindicated, since I see that folktrax.org has only American entries (except for a sneaky cross-reference to Rigs of the Time):
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM No Joe, I very much doubt that it's Irish. The character "The Dodger" has got London written all over him. The tour circuit for these early musichall artists included Scotland and Ireland that's all. I wouldn't discount an earlier American song though. As I said Sam Cowell was raised there. It would have to put it before 1840. Sam Cowell was born in 1819 and George Coppin in 1819. Coppin toured in America for the first time in 1844, the same time as Cowell's decision (he was in England by then) to concentrate on musichall instead of theatre or opera. There was an overlap of a few years when Coppin and Cowell could just possibly have both been in the same area of the UK. 1840-1843. After that Coppin went to Australia and Cowell became a great early musichall star in England. Cowell toured America just at the start of the Civil War and was very popular. I'm still seaching for the "We're All Cheating" words. I'll post them as soon as I find them. Cheers Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:14 PM Whatever it is or is not---it surely can be considered what Pete Seeger and/or Lee Hays would consider a "zipper" song---and, hopefully, some clever people can "zipper" some topical lyrics into this most important of all elections. Certainly--W qualifies---to be a well knowndodger who keeps dodgin'. So---can we fill this in---Geo. is a well known dodger he speaks of WMD he speaks of Religion and he just ------now I need your help. Hell---I wish I were a songwriter. But he is a well known dodger,----------- Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:19 PM Something else I just remembered. (To tangle this up even more). George Coppin ran for office, here in Victoria, Australia. He was always poking fun at himself and everyone else. He was even called "The Artful Dodger" at times, although he was actually more of an "Honest George". "The candidate's a Dodger, he's a well known Dodger...." Hmmmm! Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:21 PM Joy, when I visited Ireland, I was politely informed that ALL folk songs have Irish origins. The next year, I visited England, and they weren't so polite in informing me that the Irish were mistaken. They contend that even Irish-language folk songs were first written in English. Makes me afraid to visit Australia..... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:22 PM Speaking of such things. I must go off and vote!! Bob Brown how I wish you luck. Joy |
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Subject: ADD Version: We're All Dodging From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM "Ever'body's talkin' 'bout it," but we need some songs to compare. Here is the one in Randolph that heads off The Traditional Ballad Index note, posted above by Joe. WE'RE ALL DODGING Well the lawyer he's a dodger, Yes, a well-known dodger, The lawyewr, he's a dodger Yes, and I'm a dodger too. He'llplead you a case An' claim you for a friend, But look out, boys, He's easy for to bend. For we're all dodgin', Dodgin' an' a-dodgin', Yes, we're all a-dodgin' Our way through the world. Well, the doctor he's a dodger, Yes, a well-known dodger, The doctor he's a dodger, Yes, an' I'm a dodger too. He'll doctor you and cure you For half that you possess, But look out, boys, He's a-dodgin' for the rest. No. 462, pp. 218. MS from Mr. F. M. Goodhue, Mena, Arkansas, 1930. Vance Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 3. No music. |
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Subject: ADD: Song of the Times From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 04 - 09:52 PM A related song, since in thought it has the same intent. Especially compare verse 10, concerning the doctor (mentioned in Randolph in note to the 'Dodger' song). This one from 1905. ^^ SONG OF THE TIMES Now a song I will sing you in jingles and rhymes About matters and things in these curious times, And a lesson to all I hope it will be When I sing about things that I every day see. These queer times, these queer times. I see the little boys, just from their mamas, Think themselves men because they puff their cigars. They'd better be at home playing with toys Then parading the streets and saying 'I'm one of the boys.' These fast times, these fast times. And there's the modern young lady, all the time reading sonnets, Romances, and novels, and wearing queer bonnets; She'll screw up her waist till she cannot sneeze, Wear a hump on her back, and a dress without sleeves. These are queer times, these are queer times. And I see the married ladies wear satins for dress When their husbands are bankrupt and in great distress. They had better be at home washing up dishes, Darning old stockings, and mending their husband's old breeches, These hard times, these hard times. There's the blacksmith, who lives by the sweat of his brow, And there's the old farmer, who follows his plow; Each a very good man, in his own conceit, But get em' to trading, they both will cheat. And it's hard times, it's hard times. And there's the Old Baptist. he'll come on the stage, He'll open his book, and he'll read you a page, He'll tell you a tale for you to go by, But give him a chance, he'll get drunk on the sly. And it's hard times, it's hard times. And the old Methodist, too, will exhort, and he'll pray, He'll point you to Heaven the straight, narrow way, He'll go to camp meeting, he'll shout and he'll cry, But in a horse trade he will tell you a lie. And it's hard times. it's hard times. Next, the old Presbyterian, with grave, solemn face, Will tell you salvation is all by God's grace; You'll come when He 'draws you', you can't come before, But still, if you don't come, to Hell you must go, And this seems a hard case, a very hard case. And now comes the Campbellite, preaching reform, 'Repent and be baptized,' in sunshine or storm; He boasts of his 'good works,' owns to some evil too, But all the good's for himself and the evil for you. And it's hard times, it's hard times. And there's the old doctor, I like to forgot. I do think in my soul he's the worst of the flock; He'll promise to cure you, for half you possess, And when you are dead, he will go for the rest. Oh, it's hard times, it's hard times. And lastly, the lawyer, as certain as fate, Will have a fat slice in winding up your estate, And his Honor, the Judge, of the Probate, with ease Gobbles up the remainder, in costs and in fees. And then it's hard times, it's very hard times. H. M. Belden, editor, 1940, "Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri Folk-Lore Society, Univ. Missouri Studies vol. 15, no. 1, pp. 433-434, communicated 1905 by Mary L. Goodwin, Lafayette County, MO. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 04 - 10:51 PM For Hard Times songs, see thread 63228. A Canadian version similar to the one given by Belden is in the DT. Also see "Hard Times" in Lomax, American Ballads and Folk Songs. |
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Subject: ADD: The Artful Dodger From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM Two versions of the same recitation-song are in the Bodleian Collection, both based on the "Artful Dodger" of Charles Dickens. One of them is attributed to Sam Cowell; "The Artful Dodger." The other is just called "The Dodger." The subject is a petty thief with an overblown ego who gets transported to Australia. This song has little or nothing to do with the "We're All Dodgers" collected by Randolph. ^^ THE ARTFUL DODGER 1858 (1862) "This very funny and highly humourous song as sung by Sam Cowell..." Now gals and boys I hope you're well, And then yes, I'm the same; Of course you don't know me not at all, But the Dodger is my name. You've read my ad-wen-tures writ by "Bos," (I say who the Dickens is he?) About a pariah 'prentice lad, "Who vas All-of-a-twist like me." Refrain: Then fare-ye-vell Vhitechapel boys, And farevell all my friends; I'm going away for the good of my 'ealth, But not at my own expense. Now all young lads vhat's in this town, Attend to my lamenting lay; Don't let your spirits tumble down, Vhile some few words to you I say. It's all wery vell vhen you're in luck, Your pals will stand a cup, But vhen you're down they "keep you down," Because they "turns you up." Then fare-ye-vell Vhitechapel boys, etc. Vhen Mister Dickens wrote his book, He drew my character so vell, It might ha' been my Dog-or-a-type, For none could the difference tell. And then there come another cove, Vhat paints my features in; I means good Mister Crooked-Shanks, Vhat never drinks no gin. Then fare-ye-vell etc. I nailed this yaller from a bloke Just down in Drury Lane; And this Bandana from a svell, Vhile svallerin his champagne. This from a Foreneer I took, As he valked Leicester Square; And this 'ere vun came from a cove, As grand as the Lord Mayor. Then fare-ye-vell etc. And so it is you plainly see, To be a prig* has been my lot, There's nothink comes amiss to me Exceptin' 'tis the vile Garotte; I've used my fingers vhen I'd luck 'Cause I'd the happy knack, But I never like a coward struck A man behind his back. Then fare-ye-vell etc. There's one or two more lately, Wot's taken coves in unawares; And wot's the difference I'd like to know, 'Tween these 'ere vipes and Railway Shares. The Crystal Palace cotched it, too, They had themselves to thank, But the biggest swindle on 'em all- Vas the Royal British Bank. Then fare-ye-vell etc. Then farevell, pals, a long farevell, But vhen I'm gone you must not grieve, I'll soon be vonce more back again, 'Cause I'll soon vork the Ticket-o'-leave. But there's vun thought vhere e'er I go, Vhat vill this buzzum cheer; Which is, that vhen I comes again, You'll hail the Dodger here. Then fare-ye-vell Vhitechapel boys, etc. Bodleian Collection. Ballads Catalogue, Firth c.17(139). Dated December 1862, but original date indicated as 1858. The Poet's Box, Glasgow. Fake dialect throughout. Two scandals or swindles are mentioned, but there is nothing like the content of the American songs "We're All Dodgers." (The premier Dodger of them all vas heard again tonight) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:21 AM * prig- thief, a cheat (Grose, A Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit and Pickpocket Eloquence, 1785). |
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Subject: ADD: All A-Cheating From: Joybell Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:01 AM Thanks Q. Here is: ^^ All A'Cheating All a'cheating a cheat cheat cheating All a'cheating in the country and the town. First came the milkman Down the street he did walk He sure knew how to cheat you With his water and his chalk. Next comes the butcher With his greasy old hat And under the scales Sticks a greasy lump of fat. Next comes the baker With his rolls and his buns He sure knows how to cheat you Short weight in every one Next comes the grocer With his basket on his arm The change you should have had Still sticking to his palm. This song was collected in Australia by John Meredith from Joe Yates. Meredith said of the song: "A song collected from Joe, which I believe has its origins in England. Whether these are the original lyrics or not I don't know. However, they would suit the Gold Rush times, as it seems everyone was hungry for a quid. Another variant of this song comes from America called "All a dodging". It's one of those songs that cries out for lyrical changes as times pass and new events unfold. Next comes the politician By Jeez they can talk Sure know how to cheat you With their lies and travel rorts." My informant hasn't given me any dates but I believe it must have been collected during the 1950s-1960s. Interesting stuff. Joy |
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Subject: ADD: Chapter of Cheats From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM Say it ain't so, Joe. It's English, not Irish, ca. 1919-1844. ^^ CHAPTER OF CHEATS (or, The Roguery of All Trades) Chorus: Come all you honest Tradesmen, and listen unto me, I'll tell you a little of the trades of roguery, And when you hear my ditty through, you cannot fail to laugh, Though lately you have been bothered with a little bit of chaff. And they're all cheating in country and town. The first is the Lawyer to bother and jaw, He well knows how to cheat you with a little bit of law; Then comes the Doctor to handle you so rough, He will charge you a guinea for one shilling's worth of stuff. The Pawnbroker next with a ticket in his hand, He'll cheat you like the Doctor, for Interest is his plan; The Grocer sands his sugars, sells slow leaves for tea, And then the dusty Miller, where's a bigger rogue than he? The Baker will cheat you with his alum, beans and starch, In your dishes for a dainty bit he'll not forget to search; The Butcher he will cheat you, behold his greasy hat, And underneath his scale he sticks a lump of fat. The Cobbler when he mends up your shoes in rainy weather, He'll mend both soles and uppers with nought but rotten leather; The Tailor he to cheat you will not be very loth, He'll think no sin to cabbage from your coat a yard of cloth. The Chandler's shop will cheat you, and think it no sin; The Porkman stuffs his sausages with gristle and with skin; The Undertaker he will cheat you, believe me it is so, If the Body-snatchers get you off to Doctor Brooks you go. The Hatter for to sell his hats he calls them waterproof, They're plastered up with rosin, that is nothing but the truth; The Tinker he will cheat you until he makes you stare; The Poulterer will sell you a rabbit for a hare. Linen Drapers they will mark up things for to make you grin, And cheat you like the d---l when their shop you enter in; The Fishmonger will cheat you with his fish stinking long; The Publican will cheat you selling small beer for strong. The next is the Milkman, round the streets he'll walk, He well knows how to cheat you with his water and his chalk; The Cheesemonger will cheat you with his butter, eggs and lard, And also with his bacon, you must own it's very hard. Bricklayers, Weavers and *Malsters will cheat their own brothers, If a Glazier mends one pane of glass he's sure to break another; Now you see there's every trade a cheating in a group, There's the Cook-shop man a washing up the dishes in the soup. The Coal-merchant where you buy your coals will cheat you very rough; The Tobacconists are grinding up dried cabbage leaves for snuff; Stay Stitchers and Dandy Bonnet makers both will cheat you sly; Bill Stickers sell you paper, and swear it is a lie. The Gin shop keepers they're all striving for to take you in, There's such a lot of vitriol mix'd among their gin; Your Landlord too will cheat you when for his rent he calls; And the man what gathers taxes is the biggest rogue of all. Bodleian Library. Harding B11(571), between 1819 and 1844, printed in London by Pitts. Roud # 628. *Malsters ? |
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Subject: ADD: The Cheating Tradesmen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:17 PM That's 1819-1844. There is a copy with a date of 1832, but I haven't seen it. The song is still earlier. An undated sheet at the Bodleian, "The Cheating Tradesmen" (tradsemen, sic) has the old 's' so probably is 1800-1820. Badly printed; lyrics not corrected. ^^ The Cheating Tradesmen Scarce any Trade or calling That you have heard of yet But what if they intend to thrive Must now be forced to cheat. Refrain: and a cheating we will go will go will go. The Landlord does the Farmer wrong In raising of his rent And to help him o'ra the stile agen The cheat about is sent etc. He makes the baker pay full dear So hardly does he bite Which the baker to fetch up again Can make his bread to light etc. The Brewer in that method too Is very apt to fall For every one that drinks can tell He makes his beer to small etc. The Butcher would perswade you That honestly he'll deal But there are few but what can tell How they blow up their veal etc. The Uintnar (vintner?) says in honesty He tekes the greatest pleasure While the meantime he nick and froth And let you want your measure etc. If you shou'd a Physician want, To ease you of your pain Your sure he'll keep you long in hand To have the greater gain etc. Thus every man but little cares For those that are his friends For any trick or art they use To gain their prixate ends etc. (private) If you shou'd chance to go to law For matters great or small In the conclusion you will find The Lawyers do get all. And if you want a taylor A suit of cloaths (?) to make Their c--- so common is (cheating?) One yard in three the'll make. Bodleian Library, Harding B17(48b); no date, printer not indicated. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:36 PM This version is worth saving to disc. ^^ Lyr. Add: LONG CORN DODGER Neal Morris Well, the doctor, he's a dodger; He's a long corn dodger, And the doctor, he's a dodger, And he's a dodger, too. He'll go to see his patients and give a dose of pills And the next thing you know, He's a-dodging for his bill. Chorus: And it's all a dodger; It's a long corn dodger, And it's all a dodger-- That's the way with the world. Well, the lawyer, he's a dodger; He's a long corn dodger, And the lawyer, he's a dodger And he's a dodger, too. He'll plead your case And he'll wish you well, And the next thing you know, Wish you in ---. Well, the young girl's a dodger; She's a long corn dodger, And the young girl's a dodger, And she's a dodger, too. She'll spend every time With the powder and the paint To make a boy think He's a-getting what he ain't. And the old maid's a dodger, She's a long corn dodger, And the old maid's a dodger, too. She'll spend every time A-primping and a-painting. If she can't catch a beau, She'll catch a spell of fainting. Well, the boys, they're a dodger; They're a long corn dodger, And the boys, they're a dodger, And they're a dodger, too. They'll go to see the girl And they'll tell that they love her, And the next thing you know, They're a-dodging for another. And the Baptist, he's a dodger; He's a long corn dodger, And the Baptists they's a dodger, And they're a dodger, too. They'll drink their wine And liquor, too. They'll drink it all up And say, "There hain't none for you." And the Methodist's a dodger; They're a long corn dodger, And the Methodist a dodger, And they're a dodger, too. They'll talk about Hell And Heaven on high, And the next thing you know, They're a-dodging for the pie. And the Campbellite's a dodger; He's a long corn dodger, And a Campbellite's a dodger, And he's a dodger, too. He's got his religion, And he don't know where he got her, And he'll swear the way to Heaven Is through a hole of water. Well, the Holiness a dodger; They're a long corn dodger. Well, the Holiness a dodger, And they're a dodger, too. They'll jump and roll And whoop and yell, For everybody else Is a-going to hell. Well, the infidel's a dodger; He's a long corn dodger, And the infidel's a dodger, And he's a dodger, too. Swear there ain't no Hell, Nor Heaven on high, But he'll get a shaking up In the sweet bye and bye. Mr. Morris: "Now if I left anybody out, I didn't aim to." Dr. Wolf: "Tell the name of the song." Mr. Morris: "That's 'The Long Corn Dodger,'" Long Corn Dodger The Wolf Folklore Collection. Recorded 1959, Mountain View, Arkansas, by Neal Morris. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:51 PM Whoops. Sorry Joe forgot to change the heading in my haste. Thanks. Seems we can look at this song from several angles. 1. The idea behind it. 2. The character with which it may have at one time been associated. 3. The rythms within the song. 4. The words. 5. The tune. 6. Where it's been collected. As a singer it's the songs that have the line: "We're all dodging, dodge, dodge, dodging" (or similar)and possibly "All a'cheating etc." that feel like the closest matches. The song that has lasted the time-test is the one that is surely American in it's feel. Australian collector, John Meredith agreed on that. Something very, very special happened to songs in the USA regardless of their origins. I think "The Dodger Song" is a fairly good example. Hands up who's going to start reviving any of the other songs on this thread! I'm just a compulsive pattern seeker. Sometimes the pieces fit. Sometimes they don't. When I sing it's almost always songs of American origin or old songs in their American variants. Be of good cheer Joe we'd love to have you here for a visit. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Lighter Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:10 PM An anti-war '50s verse (The Weavers?)was The general he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, The general he's a dodger, and I'm a dodger too. He'll march you up and march you down, Look out, boys, he'll march you underground! And we're all a-dodgin' [etc.] And, Q! What makes you sure that Cowell's dialect is "fake"? Even in the '20s, at least one of the old salts recorded by James M. Carpenter in London still pronounced "w" as "v," in the manner indicated by Cowell and Dickens. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:16 PM Should have noted before this, for the record, that "Olliver Twist" was published in 1838. Coppin and Cowell were both starting out on their solo careers this same year. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:42 PM Lighter, It's true that the dialect used by Sam Cowell was the one used by the Cockney characters he portrayed. Cowell's natural accent was American, however, so in that sense you could say it was "fake". He was an actor. I'd call it "acting". I've come across some versions of Cowell's other songs, sung by Americans where his every word is faithfully reproduced along with all his asides. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Billy the Bus Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:36 PM Joy - "I'm stil a watchin' watchin' watchin'..." what a facinating thread. It seems most pf the US versions were sourced in he Ozarks. I seem to recall that those "mountain men" had a reputation for preserving old Euro[ean songs in a relatively unmodified form up to the 1939-59s, when Lomax et al started recording. WWW (Weave a Wonerful Web) out of the threads of people, thoughts, words and tunes who made a worldcwide web in the early-mid 1800s - and we think the WWW is new? Anyway, despite having knocked up a few local and topical NZ verses for "Dodgers" in the 60s, the song never got into our NZ "folk tradition".... Mumuble.... Keep up the good work Joy, Q, and others... I'll kee[ watchin' Cheers - Sam |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:48 PM It was common practice for these solo performers to use an accent, a costume, and peculiar (but identifiable to the audience) mannerisms or movements on stage. The best had several personas or 'characters' and could switch from one to another. Their fake (not native to them) accents often were very good; the result of study and practice. The "Artful Dodger," reproduced above from a broadside, is one-dimensional; it lacks the actions and persona of the performer, and the little asides and interaction with the audience mentioned by Joybell. References to events are no longer topical. We look at the words and think that it didn't take much to amuse an audience in those days. The broadsides we have of the "Dodger" or "Billy Barlow," judging from the few comments that have been preserved from people who saw performances by a good actor like Cowell, are little more than shadows of the real thing. Sketches by artists such as Cruikshank, showing these performers in their stage personas help a little, but the only way we can evaluate them now is through the performances of the few who have brought this kind of artistry into the 20th century. Red Skelton's skits would be equally flat if all we had to go by were the words of the script. Bette Midler did a solo on the New York stage, using several personas. One of the greats was Cornelia Otis Skinner. A genius like Chaplin could do it all without words; luckily he chose films or he would be almost unknown to us today. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 10 Oct 04 - 06:27 PM Q, my friend, you are so right. Ever since I became fixated on my 19th Century character (not The Dodger) I've been overwhelmed by sadness that we can never know how it really was to see and hear the great performers of the past in the flesh. I have never found George Coppin's version of "We're All Dodging". Just the title and the claim that he wrote it. That may well be the key to this mystery. Coppin's diaries and letters and even short notes have been saved and it's possible the words are buried there somewhere. His songs weren't published like Cowell's. He wisely regarded them as topical songs that wouldn't stand the time-test. Billy, Another unrelated snippet. George Coppin may have been partly responsible for the lack of interest in New Zealand as part of the 19th Century tour circuit. He was the main agent, in Australia, booking acts from the UK and America. He did visit New Zealand himself - once - but he advised performers that it was not a very lucrative market. It was close enough for performers who were settled in Australia, of course, though. If you and your Giant Squid had been there, Billy, I'm sure New Zealand would have held more appeal! Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Bob Bolton Date: 10 Oct 04 - 08:27 PM G'day Joybell, On your note: " ... My informant hasn't given me any dates but I believe it must have been collected during the 1950s-1960s. Interesting stuff. Joy ... ". I don't think John Meredith collected from Joe Yates in his 1950s/60s collecting stint (before he stopped collecting and concentrated on writing). A lot of Joe's material was collected by Merro when he got back into field-recording in the 1980s, probably in the work that led up to the second volume of Folk Songs of Australia and the men and women who sang them, New South Wales University Press, (1987 ... ?). Joe Yates was subject of collecting work by a variety of later field collectors in the '80s ... and I know that We're All A-Cheatin' is often performed by Rob Willis, who worked closely with Merro in his later collecting years, before illness slowed down his field work. I'll check the home records to see when this one was collected by John. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 10 Oct 04 - 09:00 PM Thanks Bob, I thought you might come in here at some point. I was going to give Rob a call on the subject. Have you ever come across the George Coppin song, "We're All Dodging"? He was in Victoria by the time he said he wrote it, but he toured in NSW a bit. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Bob Bolton Date: 10 Oct 04 - 09:13 PM G'day again Joybell, (I was trying to post this ... when the WWW rolled over - I don't think i have ever seen a printed version of Coppin's Australian words to We're All A'Dodgin' ... I'll check a few of the 19th c. printed collections - but I can't bring it to mind.) I should have said that your summary (09 Oct O04 - 05.51AM) seems pretty accurate for the mixed background of this song, as heard in Australia. Joe Yates's version carries over quite few specific phrases from that posted by Q (09 Oct O04 - 02.23PM) as CHAPTER OF CHEATS (or, The Roguery of All Trades ... Bodleian Library. Harding B11(571), between 1819 and 1844, printed in London by Pitts. Roud # 628. *Malsters ? ) ... but moves them into the tighter, more repetitive "American" style that clearly contributes much to the song's survival. A song that can always find appropriate targets! Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Oct 04 - 10:01 PM Recently I picked up a library discard, "Coppin the Great," by Alec Bagot. Unfortunately, Bagot's lackluster effort fails to breathe life into his subject, concentrating more on a catalogue of Coppin's life than on his artistry. An actor named Charles J. Miers seems to have made use of "The Artful Dodger" on the American stage (see "The Hallelujah Band" in American Memory) but there is not enough there to see whether he really developed the character. There is a picture of him in a black suit and stage bow tie on the cover of the sheet music. I haven't looked into any biographical material on him. Can anyone define "malster" for me? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Bob Bolton Date: 11 Oct 04 - 04:34 AM G'day yet again Joybell, I just got home - and checked the two volumes of Folk Songs of Australia and the men and woment who sang them. Joe Yates is not mentioned in the frist volume (1967) and is extensively cited in the second ... but no All A'Cheatin'! I suspect it will be in a later monograph from the "Pioneer Performers" series, by Carrawobbity Publications (a joint effort of Rob Willis and the Wongawilli Bamd and Dancers group). I'm off to my Workshop straight after dinner, but I'll see if it is published in a (~) "Songs & Tunes of Joe Yates" monograph. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 11 Oct 04 - 06:26 PM Thanks Bob, I'll try my contact again. Q, The book you picked up, "Coppin the Great", is the only one written about the great man. I found it interesting although it's a bit hard to follow the dates at times. It's in this book that the song "We're All Dodging" is mentioned, but as there's a lot left out of the index, I'll have to hunt for it. I found that this book is very much like a lot of books about 19th Century performers in that the parts of their lives that interest us - the songs, the performances, are often not well covered. Funny. It's the same with Sam Cowell. ('though that one is full of colour, I thought). I live a days trip away from the Coppin collection. Coppin's costumes are still preserved too. One day I'll sift through all the papers and see what I can find. Last time around it was one of his characters that I was studying, rather than the man himself. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Oct 04 - 06:37 PM I agree that the index to Bagot's book is poor. Which reminds me, you mentioned some statement about Billy Barlow that was in that book- I went through almost line by line and didn't find it. Now I can't remember what it was about. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 11 Oct 04 - 06:51 PM I know what it was, Q. It was the statement from a Coppin letter about who wrote the "Billy Barlow in Australia" song. I'll have to check my records, (I made my own index as I read the book), because that's not in the index either. I'll be back with a page number for you on both items. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 11 Oct 04 - 07:29 PM Ok, Q. The quote you mention is on page 289. Towards the top. The relevant quote is: (Coppin's words) "....Ben Griffin from Maitland, that wrote Billy Barlow." Of course you need more information than what's here to make the connection. I used several books and newspaper articles. My findings will be on the Ballad index in time, I believe. The other quote about "We're All Dodging" is still buried somewhere. I'll keep looking. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 12 Oct 04 - 06:11 AM Ok, here's the quote about the song "We're All Dodging" from the book "Coppin the Great" by Alec Bagot. It's at the bottom of page 180, where Coppin is performing at the Queens Theatre in Melbourne. It is around 1853 (the exact year isn't given although the day of the week is). The characters played by Coppin are given and then: "....and Demosthenes Dodge in "The Artful Dodger", 'In this piece', the usually unenthusiastic reporter of the "Argus" recorded, 'his song "We're all Dodging" evoked tumultuous plaudits.'...." Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Oct 04 - 07:41 AM Thanks, Joybell, for the page numbers. Something else that takes a bit of head-scratching is keeping dates in line for some of the references in the book. It is not clear whether the p. 180 reference is to one of Coppin's Artful Dodger routines, one based on the much older English "Cheating Tradesman" or one similar to the American variants. The Barlow reference seems to be for the year 1864 or 1865. Cowell (?on tour in Australia?) was singing about Barlow's "Emigration to Australia" in the 1850s and there also was a version by a performer named Toole (copy in the Nat. Library of Australia (1850-1859))- maybe Bob Bolton can find out more about that one. The Patterson version may have been a revision of these or Maitland's. It's hard to tell unless copies of the versions can be obtained. Anyhow, good luck on your research! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Oct 04 - 12:56 PM Sorry, error! The Cowell performances of "Barlow in Australia" in the 1850s were at the Canterbury in London- not in Australia. The same may be true of the Toole performances. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 12 Oct 04 - 08:07 PM Toole's tour is mentioned in his book, Q. It was much later and Cowell never did make it to Australia although his sheet music did. Thanks for the good luck wish. I have a lot of material on my main subject of interest and have actually finished a book about him. (For my own interest and for friends who are sick of hearing me rave). As to the Coppin "We're All Dodging" it's still a bit of a mystery but if I find more I'll post the info. Thanks again, Q for the input. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:54 PM Looked into Michael KIlgarriff, "Sing Us One of the Old Songs,' Oxford 1998. He lists Repertoires of the Artistes, Lyricists and Composers, Index of Song and Sketch Titles, and a Date-list. List of song publishers. Core Song List. Covers 1860-1920. Joybell, you may have seen this book already. It is big, with 848 pages, but, as Kilgarreff states, by no means is it intended to be complete. "Significance" and "Popularity" are two of the criteria. I looked for Dodger songs, and only found these, but line-by-line check for possible equivalent titles could turn up some: Sam Cowell- The Artful Dodger. The Dodger's Return. (Dicken's based) No listing for the "We're all Dodgers" type of song. Charles Sloman (also see Cowell) Artful Dodger Sir George Robey- I'm Dodging It. (?) Funny Little Thomas (Joseph)- We Are All Humbugs. This may be a "We're all Dodgers" song. Harold Montague- The Artful Coon (may belong to the Artful Dodger group). J. L. Toole- No Dodger songs listed. 'The Grasp of an Honest Hand'? No "Cheat" songs but they must be there. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 21 Oct 04 - 06:21 PM Yes thanks Q. I've got Kilgarriff's book. It's a great resourse. George Coppin never appears in collections like this, though. Even here in Australia. It may be that he spread his talents so widely. He built theaters, founded a town, built a pleasure garden (with zoo), started several organizations like the Masons and the ambulance service, became active in politics, was the agent for almost all of the American and English actors and other performers who came to Australia on tour during the 19th century. The fact that he was a good actor and performer, fiddler, dancer and singer seems to get lost somehow. We both noted that in the book about him, I think. If only Maurice Willson Disher had written about Coppin. As for Toole, his book, written for him using his words, (the author followed Toole around catching gems of stories) gives a few funny "Dodger" stories. He says he had a "Dodger" costume and that he sang a "Dodger" song. Doesn't give the words, though, any more than the author of Coppin's biography. Toole's book is charming once you get used to the late 19th century style of it. Great pictures. I first read it in the Melbourne library wearing white gloves. Such a rare old book. I later found it on the net and bought it. Almost feel I have to get a pair of white gloves to handle it. I'm raving again. Lost in a world from before I was born. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Jim Dixon Date: 28 Mar 09 - 01:16 PM I am struck by the similarity, in metrical structure, if not in tune, between O, WE'RE A' NODDIN AT OUR HOUSE AT HAME (in all its variations): O, we're a' noddin, nid, nid, nodding, O we're a' noddin at our house at hame. --and WE'RE ALL DODGING: For we're all dodgin', dodge, dodge, dodgin', Yes, we're all dodgin' our way through the world. Can anyone tell me whether there's a similarity in tunes? (Being a non-musician, I am relatively handicapped in this area.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Jim McLean Date: 29 Mar 09 - 06:33 AM Jim, do you know where I can hear the melody for the Dodger song? I know Aaron Copeland composed a version, also known as the Capaign song, and by the look of the words below, it definitely appears to be the same as We're a' Noddin', which I recorded with Nigel Denver in 1966. Oh, the candidate's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the candidate's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger too. He'll meet you and treat you and ask you for your vote, But look out, boys, he's a-dodgin' for your vote. We're all a-dodgin', Dodgin', dodgin', dodgin', Oh, we're all a-dodgin' out the way through the world. Oh, the lawyer, he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the lawyer, he's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll plead your case and claim you for a friend, But look out, boys, he's easy for to bend. Oh, the preacher, he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the preacher, he's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll preach the gospel and tell you of your crimes, But look out, boys, he's dodgin' for your dimes. Oh, the merchant, he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the merchant, he's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll sell you goods at double the price, But when you go to pay him you'll have to pay him twice. Oh, the farmer, he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the farmer, he's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll plow his cotton, he'll plow his corn, But he won't make a livin' as sure as you're born. Oh, the sheriff, he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the sheriff, he's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll act like a friend and a mighty fine man, But look out, boys, he'll put you in the can. Oh, the general, he's a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh the general, he's a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll march you up and he'll march you down, But look out, boys, he'll put you under ground. Oh, the lover is a dodger, yes, a well-known dodger, Oh, the lover is a dodger, yes, and I'm a dodger, too. He'll hug you and kiss you and call you his bride, But look out, girls, he's telling you a lie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: curmudgeon Date: 29 Mar 09 - 09:49 AM The two tunes are so similar that it's most likely the Dodger derived from Noddin' in a slightly different form. The Dodger is on the Weavers Carnegie Hall Reunion LP. I first heard Noddin' on Riverside LP of Burns Songs by Betty Sanders, a singer I had not heard of before or since - Tom |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Joybell Date: 23 May 09 - 10:00 PM Well! Haven't visited here for a bit. Really interesting. Thank you Jim. Good to have all this information in one place. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Nerd Date: 05 Oct 16 - 09:39 PM I've been doing a little work on "The Dodger." In addition to getting 4 versions from the LC's AFC Archive online in our blog, I've also answered some of the thorny questions in the above thread, including finding what will probably be the closest we come to the "first version" of this song, from an English play of the early 1840s. Here are the two posts. The first introduces the song and gives the archival recordings. The second presents the new evidence about origins and early history: Post 1 Post 2 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM Good to see you back, Nerd! This is fantastic work, as usual. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Oct 16 - 09:26 AM "We're A Noddin" predates Burns. I have a song in my pages on the music of Edinburgh where it was parodied for a satire about the abortive attack on Leith by John Paul Jones's gunships in 1779. http://www.campin.me.uk/Embro/Webrelease/Embro/16army/16army.htm Sheer guesswork on my part, but I'd place the original in early 18th century lowland Scotland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Dodger Song From: Nancy King Date: 06 Oct 16 - 12:13 PM As mentioned way back in October 2004 by Bill Hahn, this song is a great "zipper" song, to which verses can be added easily. In that spirit, here's my personal favorite, made up by my son Ken Schatz: Oh the singer is a dodger,yes, a well-known dodger, Oh the singer is a dodger, yes and I'm a dodger too. He'll harmonize in fifths and thirds, But look out boys, he's dodging for the words. Oh we're all a-dodging (etc.) |
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