Warped Martin

Subject: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:10 PM

Just heard from a good friend that his Martin body has warped badly and pushed the fingerboard off. Neither the importer/Agent nor Martin are apparently interested claiming it was caused by poor storage by the previous importer (now out of business)

Anyone any experience or comments?

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:14 PM

How old is this Martin?

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:16 PM

about a year. It was a major purchase and the realisation of a long ambition...

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:33 PM

Well, I have learned from my lutherer buddy, who is an authorized Martin repairman, that the newer Martins have had lots of problems.

I would suggest that your friend ask to talk with someone higher up in Martin than whomever he is has been talking. Perhaps threy have had similar problems with this model. Martin does try hard to keep its customers satisfied.

Good luck and keep us posted...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM

He should ship it to Martin under their "lifetime of the instrument for the original owner" warranty. Or have a lawyer qwrite them a nasty note -- he can't be held liable for the sins of for one of their importers.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM

Ditto what Bobert said. And good luck.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:44 PM

I second the "send it to Martin" suggestion. If he's the original owner, it should be reparable for no charge. Martin will take it out of the seller's hide, assuming it was an authorized dealer.

You do say "previous importer," which indicates a dealer, so it should be covered.

Where is this guitar located? That might make a difference.

Songbob

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:48 PM

Oh .... what a relief. At first, when I read the thread title, I thought this was about a mudcatter! WHEW! Bob

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:03 PM

No no! He's always filed under "BS."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:26 PM

Why .... MR. DON FIRTH!!! I'm ashamed of you .... sorta! Bob

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:46 AM

Instrument located in the NorthEast of England.

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Davetnova
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:16 AM

Martins in Britain are sold with a disclaimer that Martin is not responsible. I.e. no lifetime warranty just normal sale of goods act and suchlike.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: PennyBlack
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:33 AM

Stu - looks like a job for Eddie!

PB

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:03 AM

Already suggested Eddie Green: waiting for response from Tony after his period of mourning. It's possible he's taken it to Roger at Fylde since he lives at Hexham.

This disclaimer sounds odd - is it just the UK or anywhere outside the US?

Just goes to show you need to read the small print.

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:06 AM

Deckman

YOU're relieved? I thought I'd been found out!

Regards

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Davetnova
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:10 AM

I don't know how far ir spreads. I only know that when I bought mine earlier in the summer it had the little ticket/pamphlet hanging from the headstock saying Martin took no responsibility for anything. It was a bit of a surprise as I had always thought of Martin/lifetime warranty.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:14 AM

Thanks.for the info. It's difficult to imagine what storage conditions could cause the damage Tony describes short of ovens, swamps, or microwaves...

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:33 AM

Just heard that Tony's still pushing for help from Martin...Hope he's successful: it seems sad that a legendary maker should be let down by restricted after sales support.

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:22 AM

Well surely there are enough Mudcatters to form a pressure group which Martin couldn't ignore? Especially in view of our many performer members.
It could be petition time!
Giok

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:14 AM

My mistake I thought this would be about Martin Gibson.

eric

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

My mate bought his Martin in America. He tried it, placed it in the boot of the car (trunk) and we set off back to Portland Oregon from Ashland. (350 miles). As we went northwards and read the warranty it was clear that Martin did not consider themselves responsible for anything.

First item in te don'ts - DON'T PUT THE GUITAR IN THE BOOT OF THE CAR.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GLoux
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:44 AM

From the Martin web site:

Only "C.F. Martin" Instruments purchased in the United States or Canada from an Authorized Martin Dealer are covered by the "Limited Warranty" provided by C.F. Martin & Co., Inc., with main offices at 510 Sycamore St., Nazareth, PA 18064.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:00 AM

To John 'Giok' MacKenzie.
Count me in - and I hope C.F. MARTIN are taking notice.
I would remind them that some companies have found that it took many YEARS to build up a good reputation,only to have it ruined in a matter of minutes.
C.F.Martin - sit up and pay attention - I just bought my 2nd Martin 10 Weeks ago and now I'm shitting myself. I don't expect to be in panic mode when I buy a quality product - and Martin have to accept that sometimes their staff may not (for whatever good reason or another ) - produce a guitar to Martin's normally high standards.
Beware - but also be warned !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:15 AM

Anyone buying a Martin has to be warped. There are far better guitars at half the price - use your brains and your ears people (your pocket book will like you)

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:18 AM

A matter of personal opinion and taste GUEST Joe.
Giok

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:21 AM

Yea sure - unless you've seen them being "hand-made" and talk to luthiers who are in the know.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: PennyBlack
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:00 PM

Martin Unofficial Forum

might be worth a visit to the above forum and post the info there - a great bunch of lads.

PB

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM

Martins in Britain are sold with a disclaimer that Martin is not responsible. I.e. no lifetime warranty just normal sale of goods act and suchlike.

I've an idea that disclaimers like that aren't necessarily valid. And the sales of goods act would mean that the person it was bought it from carries some kind of legal responsibility. They sold it as a instrument in good condition, and I would have thought that this kind of damage so soon after buying it would mean it wasn't fit for the purpose it was purchased for.

If the suggestion was that the damage was down to your friend's treatment of it, they might have an out - but if they are saying it was because of the way it had been treated by the person from whom they obtained it, they would be fully liable, I'd have thought. (They might have a claim agains the previous importer, but that's their problem.)

Youir friends need to get advice from someone who knows the ins and out of the law on these matters. The local Citizens Rights Bureau might be able to advise.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:48 PM

I still have the letter signed by Christian Martin the third which I received after buying a duty free D 35 in Hong Kong at less than a third the UK list price . And the Lifetime First Owner Warranty !

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:54 PM

I think I'd need a better reason to go to Hong Kong

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:21 PM

I am not qualified to give legal advice nor should this be regarded as legal advice. As far as I understand the position........

Disclaimers such as the one quoted in previous post are a problem and any that purport to disclaim legal responsibility for ......whatever......might be treated with disdain by a court. (As an aside disclaimers which deny management responsiblity for injury or death as I saw at one folk festival, are in themselves illegal).

The Sale of Goods and Services Act applies to a contract between the seller (now out of business in this case) and the purchaser. It does not AFAIK apply to the manufacturer unless you bought directly from them and they were in effect the seller.

It is often an excuse given by shops that they will send it back to the manufacturer. That is their problem - your contract is with the shop and it is to the shop that you should seek remedies. A shop which no longer exists of course in this case.

Having said that I am not surprised at Martin's attitude. If the guitar was not stored properly at some time in its life after it left them in perfect condition why should they be liable? Hard to prove it either way I would have thought. If the person who sold it has gone out of business it is hardly surprising if that is the way they treated Martin guitars.

In UK law the manufacturer would be liable under the civil action of tort - if the guitar had (for example) spontaneously exploded and caused damage to someone. The famous case of Donoghue v. Stevenson 1932 - the snail in the ginger beer bottle - would apply IFit was a GB manufacturer.

Sorry this is not of much encouragement.

Best regards

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:43 PM

Are there small claims courts in the UK? You would probably need an expert witness (luthier) to prove that it had a manufacturing defect, and not left out in the rain or some such careless damage.
Obie

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

I am a lawyer. English. Check out the Sale of Goods Act 1979 as amended to date. Tell the dealer it was bought from to fix it or else. The regulations mentioned below put a whole load of extra sections in to help consumers.

Manufacturers guarantees are given effect, in part, by the Unfair COntract Terms Act 1977, and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2003 (might be (2)) - but here the manufacturer's warranty plainly is a non-warranty so it does not help.

Get on to the local Consumer Advice Bureau or Trading Standards officers.

Hell, for the price of a Martin, go to a lawyer!

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:42 PM

Yep - That's what I remember from my very basic business law - Isn't mechantable quality mentioned somewhere, Richard? Merchantable quality meaning that the item should last the length of time that can be reasonably be expected of the item? I would say that it is more than reasonble to assume that treated fairly FROM THE DATE OF PURCHASE - not before - a Martin guitar should indeed last more than a year! I used to know some of the case thingies but that was way back in the mid 70's and they have probably been supersceeded since! And I have drunk a lot of brain cells away of course...

Hey! Now there's a thing. Can I sue God if I don't last a reasonable time - say 80 or 90 years. Hmmm.

Hope it gets sucessfuly resolved anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:53 PM

Surely it depends upon the retailers warranty as to whether or not they will do anything.
Most retailers will honour a one year warranty, this being independant of any manufacturers warranty.
I suspect the real problem here is that the retailer has little or no relationship to the new distributor and no further connection to the old distributor ( who may well not exist anymore ), plus if the guitar is beyond any informal one year warranty agreement, the retailer will say tough, find a luthier or contact Martin.
I have had dealings with Martin regarding problems with a high end instrument here in the UK, and found that while being polite, they offered little or no useful help in the circumstances.
It sounds like a horrendous problem with this particular guitar and way beyond the typical scenario created by some kind of structural failure.
The area of the top around the neck is usually about the most reliable part of the top. Typically, I have come across odd problems with the bridge lifting on newish guitars, due to the natural bellying pof the soundboard in that area and the bridge not going with the flow as it were, other than that, in extreme circumstances a crack can occur in the back or sides, normally temperature related or due to impact stress. There are many other things that can happen ( it is wood we are talking about, but for the guitar to warp as described is very odd indeed.
I sincerely hope that this has a happy outcome, because I know only too well the disappointment of seeing great expectations in an instrument go bad ( thankfully not for a long time now, thanks Mr Roger Bucknall )

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:12 PM

Dave the gnome - merchantable quality died as an expression years ago.

Now Satisfactory quality. Do download an up to date Sale of GOods Act. It will make you instantly popular in shops in your area (not).

Cunbria - please go and look it up before advising others.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:59 PM

I know plenty of people here buying good quality Martin instruments.

considering you bought from a guy who is now long gone suggests that you did not do your homework in dealing with a reputable dealer who was going to be around for service after the sale.

also, I suspect negligence on your part for an instrument of Martin's quality, even on it's lower end models (I can't find even what model this questionable instrument is in this thread?)

Also, I think if you were not aware of Martin's warranty policy, again you did not do your homework.

If this is a low end model like a DM, it might not be worth fixing. If so, I hope you have learned from this guitar buying experience.

Good luck.

Eric the Red, what is your problem?

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:14 PM

not cheap. £2k or thereabout. About a year ago the importer was in business. Don't have details, don't think he expected to need a warranty so soon: not looking for lecture just shared experience or advice - thanks to those who've contributed. Still under some investigation following friend's insistence.

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:29 PM

sorry Richard, we bow to your superior knowledge..., sadly your comments mean sod all in the real world. I was merely stating exactly the kind of thing that happens every day.
Exactly how long after purchase of an item can a customer reasonably expect to walk back into a store and demand a warranty repair or replacement ?
Unless there is absolute proof that the fault could be traced back to the point of manufacture, I doubt very much that waving the sales of goods act around would mean a thing.

Stu, sorry for adding this response to the thread, I realise that it does not help you further, however, I really do hope that your friend manages to get this guitar back into playable condition.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:01 PM

Unless there is absolute proof that the fault could be traced back to the point of manufacture...

That's not the position - the relevant thing would be proof that the damage existed at the time of sale, regardless of how it had been caused (whether druring manufacture or poor storage, or damage in transit etc). Proof that it existed at point of manufacture would only be relevant if the claim was against the manufacturer.

The fact that an importer is not currently in business would not mean they did not carry liability for selling faulty goods, and I believe that if someone had purchased their business, that would make them, liable for such things. Rather like an unpaid debt turning up - which in effect is what this is.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:32 PM

I was sure this was about Martin Gibson!

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:31 PM

This is getting a bit old, GUEST. Unfortunately I'm not surprised to find your comment and others like it through the thread - and then you wonder why the guy reacts! I've noticed for some time now that more often than not, it is somebody else who initiates the nastiness - sorta like touching an electric fence (although I did open that thread we weren't supposed to :-))

It would be nice to at least leave that stuff out of music threads.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: PennyBlack
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 08:02 AM

Stu,

I presume the retailer is still in business? What action is he/she willing to take?

Which importer was it? I presume it wasn't a grey import?

The following is the company I have been dealing with for Martin Guitars for some time:-


Westside Distribution

UNIT C, 139 LANCEFIELD STREET, GLASGOW. G3 8HZ.
TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
[e-mail]


cheers

PB

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 05:29 PM

It's currently under discussion with the Martin dealer in Tony's area; at the moment there's still some hope that the business will be dealt with sympathetically/honourably.

Stu

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:36 PM

Good to hear that Stu, here' hoping.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM

Try a chat to Brian Rodgers, Chatham - a Martin freak and a good guitar fettler. I think this might be a lot cheaper to fix than some fear. You can probably trace Brian via his band, No Worries.

Martin Gibson, you are beyond the pale.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:18 PM

Oops, on the wrong thread - I was thinking about the bridge.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM

Richard Bridge

You are on the wrong planet, actually. Certainly the wrong country.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:26 PM

Dear Gibson,

I'm so glad it's not the country you come from. One O too many really.

There again, I suspect many wish you did not come from the country you do come from.

You really seem to combine the unpleasantness and inflated self-worth of some of life's most disgusting creatures - such as Geoffrey Archer and Robert Maxwell - although happily you are not as important (despite your self-importance) as they.

As to countries, yours, and most particularly the chauvinism you display, has been spectacularly wrong in most things of late.

Servant, sir.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM

Never heard of those guys. Please come down to earth and not be so snobbishly pompous, Bridge.

You might learn something about music from me.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM

Thanks to Google we only remain ignorant because we choose to.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:38 AM

Dear Gibson

You never heard of them?

You re-inforce my point.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:26 AM

No, Ii never heard of them.

Are you so arrogant to think that you have heard of everybody?

Oh wait, most lawyers are known for name dropping.

You are so blindly pissed off you obviously took this thread away from it's intent due to your lack of arguement.

Martins are not warranteed in Britiain for perhaps a good reason to the C.F. Martin Co.

Sit down, counselor. Take a deep breath

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:16 PM

Hmmm, maybe when CFM see some of the clowns who are supposedly in possession of their products in the States, may may decide to review that generous homeland warranty.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:44 PM

I bought my first Martin in 1954 and I owned three Martins early on. I've seen quite a few old Martins and there are some still floating around. In fact, Deckman has two. Really great guitars.

But I've also seen some of the new Martins. Unfortunately, they just ain't what they used to be.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 04:32 PM

To old people, Don, most things are just not as good as they used to be.. I do know plenty of bluegrassers who are playing newer Standard Series as well as Vintage and Golden Era series Martin instruments.

They love them.

Guest, I doubt it. They treat their customers very well here. Keep humming.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:19 PM

Marty, age per se has nothing to do with it. Experience, judgment, and knowledge of Martins and instruments made by a lot of other companies and luthiers does.

Martin generally turns out a fairly good quality product, but Christian Frederick Martin would not be too happy with some of them. Nor would Christian Frederick Martin III who took over the company in the Forties. They used to be mostly hand made, but not anymore. There has been a dip in quality within recent years as a result of cranking them out to meet the demand. If yours is one of the earlier ones, count yourself lucky.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,cumbrian
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 03:55 AM

Don, there is some substance to what you say, in as much as turning out such large numbers of guitars across a vast range of models, there are going to be some QC issues, simply down to the fact that wood is such a variable factor.
I am lucky enough to have some very good Martins from recent years ( D28,D41,00028VS and 00028EC ) all of which stood out from the rest of the pack, I have also had a few, including examples of the aforementioned models that struggled to come up to scratch. The four Martins I mentioned all hang on in there against the smaller shop guitars I also own and play.
Knowing enough about wood selection, storage and ageing, I note that some of the more significant problems with odd guitars coming out of respected name factories is down to less than top grade woods. I suspect that due to turn over of wood stocks everything gets used, and sometimes too soon to have fully seasoned ( I have recently had two custom shop Gibsons where the ebony boards ( ebony being prone to dry out ) have contracted /expanded significantly within weeks of shipping. This suggests a use, in some examples of woods either, lacking stability or not having fully aged before use.
The general grade of woods used back in the Golden era were very high on production models, while now it seems that to get the best, it is safer to go to the small shop luthiers, where wood selection is generally high and instruments are built to bring the best out of the wood, rather than to specified production quotas.
Having said all that, it is possible to find a very good Martin these days, as,if anything, the existence and success of Collings etc. have forced up the standards from the old guard.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Juan P-B
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:00 PM

Dammit! Will you STOP dragging Martine away from having her bloody photograph taken with her Martin Guitar
Juan P-B

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:22 PM

Earlier this month we had an opportunity to tour the Martin factory in Bethlehem, PA.

Martins are not hand made in the sense that no one in the factory can make a guitar by themselves. They are hand made in the sense that virtually every operation is still done by hand with very little in the way of machines. The entire process is broken down into dozens of steps and each step is done by a few people who are highly skilled and trained to do just that thing. The result of each step must meet a specification for that step.

We used to think that Martins were expensive but, now that we've seen how much hand work goes into them, we think they're cheap

They have about 700 employees working two shifts and they turn out about 215 guitars a day including all the models they make. Everything is done in that factory except inlaying which they contract out.

Making this many guitars requires a lot of wood so we can see how they might have to lower their specifications on the raw wood. From what we saw they have a great bunch of people trying hard to turn out the very best instruments they can.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Lanfranc
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM

Bev & Jerry must have been looking for the new born again D-45JC - the carpenter's shop is, I am led to believe, in Nazareth, PA, as it has been for some years.

Go to Bethlehem for a steel guitar, perhaps?

Dog in a manger, moi??

Alan

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 03:05 PM

Good post defending Martins of today Cumbrian and Bev and Jerry, also.

Don, go buy a new one and try one out. Mine is a 1971 D-18 with an aged top, tone, and intgrity that kills. As I reiterate, many bluegrass people I know are playing D-16s, Hd-28s and new items like D-18V. These guitars are just fabulous.

Juan P-B, keep strumming that cheap piece of junk you found at the flea market. If you get good enough to play it, you to can one day step up to a Martin, after you get your 8th grade diploma.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 05:02 PM

I am not unfamiliar with Martins.

There was a shop in Seattle years ago—the Broberg House of Music—that sold a variety of instruments, but they specialized in Martin guitars. Mrs. Broberg, a venerable old lady, played classic guitar herself, and she rightly considered Martins to be the best American-made guitars, exceeded only by European makers such as Herman Hauser in Germany and two or three of the Spanish luthiers such as Manuel Barbero and José Ramirez. Mrs. Broberg tried to keep at least one of every model Martin in stock. Many of them were set about the shop on display stands. We used to spend a lot of time at the Broberg House of Music just looking at the various Martins and feeling something akin to lust. As far as I know, no one ever sacrificed a goat before one of them, but then. . . .

I bought my first Martin there, a 00-18 steel-string with spruce soundboard and mahogany back and sides. It was all I could afford. It was $95.00 and I had to buy it on time. $15.00 a month. This was in 1954. It was a fine sounding instrument. A year later I started taking classic guitar lessons and I traded it in on a 00-28-G—spruce soundboard, with the back and sides made of really beautiful Brazilian rosewood. $175.00, would you believe? Later, I got a 00-18-G (spruce, mahogany back and sides), for about $110.00 as I recall, as a second guitar. All these Martins sounded great and felt good to play.

It was in the late Fifties, when I joined the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, that I was introduced to some of the guitars by European luthiers. Since then I've owned seven Spanish-made guitars (four classics and three flamencos), and they were better than any Martin I've ever played—fuller sounding, longer sustain, more projection—although the Martins were quite good. I could definitely have survived had I just kept the first Martin classic that I bought. But GAS (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome), as we all know, is a powerful motivation. . . .

Wood is definitely a problem. There has been such a demand for good guitar woods within recent decades that the really choice woods are exceedingly hard to get in any quantity. This is one of the reasons why the quality of many formerly top-name guitars has diminished. Back in the Fifties and early Sixties, you could buy the first Martin that Mrs. Broberg handed you and be sure that it was top quality. After all, it was a Martin. But not anymore. It is definitely possible to get an excellent Martin these days. But you have to be very selective.

But the same is true for other makes. Through much of his career, John Williams has played guitars made by Ignaçio Fleta of Barcelona. I once heard him say that Fletas were all excellent, but some were better, and at Fleta's shop, he tried seven guitars before he found the one he really wanted. The most recent classic I purchased was Japanese-made (not mass-produced, but made by a Japanese luthier who apprenticed in Madrid), imported, inspected, and labeled as approved by José Oribé. It looks and sounds like a José Ramirez and some people think it is. In fact, I played it once at a Seattle Classic Guitar Society meeting and everybody assumed it was a Ramirez. But even so, I had my pick of five guitars of the same model.

Because of the wood situation and because most of the big name guitars are turned out in much greater quantities than they used to be, no matter what brand you're looking for, you have to be very picky. It isn't wise to buy one just by "brand name" anymore.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 05:17 PM

I agree Don. and quite frankly, I don't buy any new guitars at all myself. All 5 acoustics I own are 1960s guitars except the '71 D-18. I just like the vintage jive I get from them. However I do believe the Martins and the Gibsons are going through a new renaissance of quality again.

The foreign makeclassical guitars you mention are really in a different league and for a different type of musician, so I really don't find the comparrison relevant for a picker and power strummer like myself.

But if I played flemenco............

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 05:27 PM

Flamenco the true path

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 05:39 PM

Totally agree you have to be very selective these days.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 06:15 PM

Don,

Have you had a chance to check out any of Greg Smallman's instruments, as used by John Williams for the last few years ?
I was interested to find out that he was using laminates for the back and sides rather than solid woods which seems very radical in the conservative world of classical building.
By all accounts the tone and projection of these guitars is amazing.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Juan P-B
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 06:41 PM

Ooh! I do love a vintage jive! Especially during the Gibson renaissance! Martine? Do you do fries with that?

Juan P-B

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:30 PM

Perhaps you are new to Mudcat Juan, but it is a general consensus that personal invectives (even those aimed at willing targets) are best kept below the line.You seem to feel it's OK to scatter it in multiple music posts. Come on Dude, grow up, or if you can't, at least play your childish games in the BS section where we expect that kind of drivel.

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:29 AM

Nazareth, Bethlehem, what's the difference? Jesus was at both of them!

Actually, they're both in Pennsylvania and quite close to each other. We kept getting them confused even when we were in one of them.

Anyway, right you are, it's Nazareth.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:49 PM

Thanks, Guest. wish you would have posted that under your regular posting name, but hopefully it will shut this guy up.