When is a song 'self-published'?

Subject: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Marion
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

Hello all. When exactly is a song considered to be published? It's pretty clear to me the difference between having a deal with a publishing company or not, but it's not clear what constitutes self-publishing.

For example, is a song published if I:

1. Put lyrics and chords on a website?
2. Do an indie recording to give away?
3. Do an indie recording and sell it myself?
4. Register a song with SOCAN (performing rights organization)?
5. Perform it in a public place, paid or unpaid?

And the related question is: I sometimes hear that an indie singer/songwriter has started their own publishing company to manage their own copyrights. Is there a difference between starting a publishing company for just yourself, and plain old self-publishing?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

YES in the case of 1, 2 and 3.
4 does not involve publication.
YES to 5, if it is being broadcast over public media - NO otherwise.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

They used to say you could mail the song to yourself and not open the envelope and the postmark would be proof of the date of self-publication. But I've been told by some in-the-know that that won't wash if it comes to a court battle.

You still have to go to a music publishing company to have it registered to you. Organizations like SOCAN and ASCAP don't do that for you. They only deal with royalty issues AFTER you are published.

I guess there's nothing stopping you from founding your own publishing company; many artists have. Sounds like a lot of work and bother to me, but if it's worth it to you, more power to you.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:51 PM

Perhaps there is some confusion between publishing and copyright.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

In the US a song is copyright as soon as it is put in some sort of permanent form. However, for legal protection one needs to register that copyright.

Again;In the US - El Greko's answers would apply as far as the song being considered PUBLISHED.

Furthermore - (and again - I know this holds in the US - do not know in other countries) as long as mechanical copyright fees are paid you can't be prevented from recording a PUBLISHED song.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:59 PM

In Canada at least and probably most other places copyright belongs to the authour at the time of the works completion. Publication does nothing to change this if copyright is retained. One thing publication does do is to date a work, if that should need to be proven. However, copyright is something that stands alone. Many publishing companies have stolen copyright from the authour in the past, so beware........
          Obie

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

You're right, Obie. I was confusing copyright and publication.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Canada Copyright Act: Canada copyright
(http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/)

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

I've been told i should deposit recordings of my songs with a lawer. Would this stand up in court in the (highly unlikely :0)) event of a copyright dispute?

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

Read the copyright acts-
United States- USA Copyright
UK- UK copyright
Canada- posted above.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:29 AM

You can put any number of songs together as a collection, send a copy with forms available on line, and register the copyright for $30.00.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM

people - you are still addressing copyright versus publication.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:51 PM

Publication does not give legal protection, which seems to be the thrust of Marion's inquiry.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: GUEST,Jed.
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

Marion. it is highly unlikely that you will write a song that will
interest the major publishers.
In the meantime good luck with your efforts, write, sing, and enjoy
what you do, if ever there is money to be made, you will not see it.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:33 PM

And who are you, Jed?

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Marion
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM

Hello everyone, and thanks for your responses. Greko gave a concise answer to the first part of my question, and since nobody has contradicted what he said, I'm going to believe him pending further comment.

Q, thanks for the useful links about copyright. However, you are mistaken about why I asked: I really am trying to find out about publication, not copyright. The main reason I want to know is this: I've done some looking into songwriting competitions, and I've noticed that several of them say the entries have to be unpublished songs, and I don't know if my songs are technically published or not. I've put the lyrics on a website, and given away several copies of a home recording of them, so if Greko is right then I guess they already are self-published.

Jed, you are also mistaken about my intentions: since my writing style right now doesn't have much mainstream/commercial potential, getting a deal with a publishing company isn't a goal of mine. What I would like to do within the next few years is do what a lot of people in the folkie genre do: make an indie CD by paying for the recording, production, and manufacturing myself, then sell the CDs at shows or through the mail. It's my understanding that when people do that, then the songs are self-published.

But I've also noticed that some people go on to form a publishing company just for themselves (just as there appears to be a difference between starting your own personal record label and putting out the CD without a label - both of which are very different from getting a deal with a multi-artist record label). Cluin said, I guess there's nothing stopping you from founding your own publishing company; many artists have. Sounds like a lot of work and bother to me, but if it's worth it to you, more power to you. But what I want to know is why it would be worth it to me or not. What are the pros and cons of starting your own publishing company?

And what MMario said brings me to a few more questions about what publication means. I've heard that once a song is published it's out there in the marketplace so anyone who wants to can record or otherwise use it, as long as they pay you mechanical royalties, as MMario just said. Are there other legal implications to publication besides this universal right to record the song? And does that right to record also apply to advertising use?

For an unlikely example, if Nike wants to use a song I've published in a commercial, do I have no right to prevent this as long as they've written the cheque? I ask this because I remember people saying "sell-out" a few years ago when "The Times They Are A-Changing" was used in a bank commercial - but if my understanding of the publication process is correct, the bank didn't need Dylan's permission to use the song.

Thanks all,

Marion

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

Marion,

gonce the song is published you cannot prevent anyone recording it themselves, or using your recording in advertising or in film, theatre etc. They will owe you royalties for mechanical copyright or performing rights respectively, but that's all.

As to why one might want to start their own publishing company: I am guessing here, and stand to be corrected by others, but from what little I know there are precious few benefits for the normal "punter" like you and me. But IF you make it big, you might want to negotiate distribution deals with distribution companies; or you might want to have other artists under your label. Those two are the only reasons I can think of. As I said, nothing really in it for normal mortals.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

Larry Rand recently sent me the lyric to a song which he taped at WFMT studios, Chicago, years ago, which WFMT has played repeatedly over the air. Larry mentioned that "the song
has never been commercially recorded...so you would need my permission to do so."
I suspect that if Marions song has never been sold for profit, and no one else has acquired any kind of right to the song, there would be no real obstacle to entering it in a contest. Ethically, it still has "amature status". But if, when you put the song on a website, the owners of a site can claim any degree of right to it, the conflict would disqualify it for the contest. I'm winging this from loosely related experience, not claimin' legal expertise.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:51 PM

Songwriting competitions usually require entries to have no existing legal restictions attached; and to be available for first publication. They want to be sure that, if they award a prize, they won't suddenly find themselves sued by the real copyright owner whose work has been plagiarised (it happens); or by a publishing company which already has rights in the material. If all you have done is put your lyric on a website, then you're probably ok: you'd have to ask the competition organisers in order to be sure, though.

Why on earth didn't you do that in the first place?

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: TIA
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 09:52 PM

My legal dictionary (Texas Law Review) says:

"A work is "published" when it is first made available to the public on an unrestricted basis. It is thus possible to display a work, or distribute it with restrictions on disclosure of its contents, without actually "publishing" it. Both published and unpublished works are entitled to copyright protection, but some of the rules differ."

So, unless I'm confused (quite possible), if you've made it public (don't matter how) you've been published.

Subject: RE: When is a song 'self-published'?
From: Burke
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

What Malcolm said.

The ability to put words & music on a web page means it's published in a technical sense. The rules for the competition may well predate the Web & so not really take this kind of publication into account.

Check with the competition's organization & get specifics.