Signifyin(g) in non black music examples

Subject: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Fay
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM

Hello all,

Help time again!

I am writing an essay on Signifyin(g) in non black musics, basically its a term created by black literay citics to describe a style of writing using parody and hidden meanings.

I am looking for songs which come from outside a black tradition (or from contact with - but not recognised as one)which show these characteristics.

I wanted to discuss Four Green Fields, but then realised it was a lot more contempoary than I had thought,and would like some help with older song ideas which have hidden/double meanigns which are only known to the community who know - ie not obvious from the text.

I know of some Irish songs which use women's names as celebrations or their homeland, and would like titles or other genres which might be appropriate.

I've just started this research so flailing a bit still, can make things clearer if you want to ask specific questions.

Thinking caps on guys, Fay xx

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Juan P-B
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

try 'The Bonnie Black Hare' & 'The Bicycle Pump' (or 'The Bikingale' - parody of 'The Nightingale)

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Fay
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, looking for more politically linked things really, sorry I wasn't very clear. To be discussed alongside Black American slave songs.

Having said that, I'm also looking at parody in music Hall settings and the link to minstrel shows if anyone has anything interesting to say about that...

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: ddw
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

Hi Fay,

As a blues fan/player, I've been interested in signifyin' for a while and had a bit of a different understanding of what it is than is described here. My take is that it's almost a precursor of rap — as series of sort of bragging/insulting/rhyming bullshit — vis various versions of The Monkey and the Baboon, Signifyin' Monkey, Dirty Motha Fuyer (Sp?0 and Shave 'Em Dry.

I'm not saying that's the only definition; just letting you know where I'm coming from with the next comment.

Have you looked for songs in rhyming Cockney? RC was a speech form which grew out of the lifestyle of thieves and other various rogues of an area of London, England (defined by being within the sound of certain church bells — I can't remember which church — who didn't want regular people to know what they were talking about. If them meant to say "I'm going upstairs to bed," they would say something like "I'm goin' up apples and pears to uncle Ned." When I was in grad school in Hamilton, Ont. I had a friend who could rattle on for hours in rhyming Cockney and gave us hours of amusement.

Might be worth looking into...

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

There's a song that Harry Cox sang called "The Farmer's Servant." It's about a servant who waits until his master leaves the house, has his way with the master's wife, and gets credit for "looking after the master's business." I'm reasonably sure I've seen this same plot among the "John and Massa" corpus that is one of the wellsprings of signifyin'.

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: ddw
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

Hi again, Fay.

Your second posting triggered another thought (the world may end, that's two in one day)....

There's a great song a vaudeville piece written by John Queen and Charles Cartwell which started life as a blackface minstrel turn but was co-opted by black performers and turned into something that gently makes fun of both the stereotype and the stereotypers. It's called "I Got Mine" and it's about a guy who is always looking for the main chance — with mixed rewards. It's fun, though, because he sorta takes his lumps when he loses and tries again. It might be interesting in the music hall/parody part of what you're looking into.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: ddw
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

Oops. That's "blackface minstrel TUNE." If you're interested in the words, I could post them.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM

One of the problems that may arise for you, by the way, is that in Irish music especially it is common to claim "signifyin'" meanings for items that may not have them. Such as a tune called "were you at the Rock" that many people relate to the clandestine celebration of Mass. I've never seen any real evidence for this meaning, just assertions.

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

Fay, I'm not sure if I understand you completely, but if I'm close, maybe these are examples of the sort of thing you're looking for:
Cam Ye O'er Frae France and
My Bonny Moorhen. Probably other Jacobite and Scots songs.

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:59 PM

Here are a few:

The Royal Blackbird (Irish Jacobite)

The Green Linnet (About Napoleon and his son.)

RÓISÍN DUBH (About Ireland)

The Cutty Wren (Said to be about the Peasant's Revolt - though this has been questioned.)

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Fay
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:52 AM

Thats all great stuff, thanks again for starting me off on interesting searches

Fay xx

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Fay
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:06 AM

Thanks david, the words for that song would be great. It's a module about black music so the more links to black stuff the better

Fay xx

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Mudlark
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:51 AM

St Mary le Bow....Cockney w/in the sound of Bow bells...

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 03:38 AM

A Cockney Rhyming Slang Dictionary with a bit of 'istory.:-) Some of his examples remind me of a story me neice tells: her new roommate at universtiy in Colorado was from eastern Massachusetts. She used to tell my neice she was going to "go out to the packy and pick up a ringer." Translated it meant she was going to the liquor store to pick up a six-pack of beer which had plastic rings along each can with which to carry it!

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:41 PM

Check this site out for some examples of the sort of thing you are looking for:Power of the Words in Hawaiian Music

Hawaiian songs can have veiled political, sexual, or spiritual meaning--there is a great deal of info on Hawaiian music on the net, because there is a resurgence in interest in it among Hawaiians, it is a living tradition, and the hidden political messages are about current issues--for example, though we all have heard the "Iz" version of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow/Wonderful World" in TV commercials etc, most of us don't realize that it has a strong political message for Hawaiians--

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

McGrath, the canard about the Peasant's Revolt was invented by A.L. Lloyd in the 1940s. There was never any evidence for it. He himself stopped making the claim long before his death. Even by 1944 Maud Karpeles was arguing that there was no evidence for it. So it's definitely a discredited theory now! No arguments on your other suggestions, though!

Subject: RE: Signifyin(g) in non black music examples
From: GUEST,Fay
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:36 AM

Thanks again,

I'll look into the Hawaiian stuff now...