Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument

Subject: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:15 AM

Years ago, I had a recurring dream that I was playing guitar with my hands, using it as a drum, and somehow still getting chords and lines of notes out of it. Unfortunately, the dream was never very specific about how to do that. When people think of a guitar as a rhythm instrument, they're most likely to think of an electric bass, salpping out the rhtyhm as the foundation for a group. In all the years I've been a part of guitar workshops at festivals, I have never once heard anyone really talk about the importance of a guitar for rhtyhm. Maybe it seems so obvious that there's not much to say. Anyone who is playing guitar is playing in rhythm, and chooses the rhythm to fit the song.

When I was taking lessons to learn finger-picking, I liked the clock-like precision of it, and because the rhythms were so regular, the song ended up having to fit the rhythm of the picking. In that case, the picking style drives the singing. After I learned to do finger-picking pattern in my sleep, then it was a matter of breaking them down so that the guitar was accompanying my singing... I wasn't singing along with the guitar. Over the years, I've found lots of ways to do that. One of the first things was to reverse the alternating bass, "Back-picking" as Mississippi John Hurt does on some songs... that kinda turned the whole rhythm inside out. But, even there, I ended up singing along with the guitar, rather than have the guitar "back" me.

There are a lot of ways to break the rhythm and make your guitar follow you. Reverend Gary Davis would hammer on to the bass lines with his left hand while holding his right hand away from the guitar, getting a very percussive bass run... a great way to break up the song. There was a jazz guitarist a few years ago (whose name I've forgotten) who built a fast reputation by playing his guitar on his lap, striking all the notes with his fingers... vlery impressive, but someone akin to a rollerskating bear. I was amazed that he could do it, but ended up why he wanted to. It was a very limiting style of playing, and maybe that's why I don't remember his name anymore.
And there's the chunka chunka rhythm that the Tennessee Three did on the bas runs. damping the srings with the side of the picking hand that made Johhny Cash's sound to unmistakeable.

These are some of the ways that I see people break up rhtyhms so that the guitar echoes the phrasing of the singer. There are other ways, too, and playing in a group requires a completely different approach to rhythm.

I'm going to throw this one in the pond and see if I get any bites.
I start threads so I can learn.

If this thread putters along, I'll add some other comments. Because this is a topic rarely talked about, it may take some serious head-scratching, just to figure out what to post..

So tell me ,cats... can you make your guitar "talk?" Does it follow you, or do you follow it?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: GLoux
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

Well, I play in an old-time band where the fiddle and banjo are doing the 'lead', so I'll admit to relying upon rhythm to be what I try to contribute. My approach is to establish rhythmic 'room' for the other instruments to move around in and have a little fun with. If there's a bass playing, I get to really back off from worrying about bass lines and focus even more upon the rhythm. Of course, there's a lot of rhythm in the fiddle and banjo (and bass), so when it is cohesive, it's the rhythm that really takes off.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:45 AM

My guitar not only talks but actually shouts at me. 'Stop, stop, stop, you useless B-----d!'

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:03 AM

I'm not a briliant guitarist -- well, let's be honest, I'm not a good guitarist! -- so my guitar accompanies my singing. I sing a lot better than I play. But I've always tried to avoid simply strumming chords; in fact I can't any more: I find I start picking bass notes on the beat, once I get started. Trouble is, I can never quite make my fingers do what I want. I can pick a tune, I can flat-pick or finger-pick a passable accompaniment, but I can't quite master that bass-and-melody business. I don't usually worry about it, I just let the fingers work more or less on autopilot without much conscious control from me. I occasionally find myself listening while I sing, and I wonder if it sounds a bit strange to everyone, or just to me. Must dig the cassette recorder out sometime and find out!

Steve

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:05 AM

Yeah, Greg: In an old-time string band, the guitar often sets the basic rhythm for the band if there isn't a bass player. I'd be interested in hearing more about who drives the rhythm, and if it varies from song to song... instrumentals, versus "songs" I'll have some comments to make about that in the gospel quartet I lead, as the guitar is the only instrument, and it is there to drive the singing, but also to "serve" the singers. Sometimes the rhythm drives the song, and sometimes the singing is much more free-form and the guitar is there to follow the lead singer.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:25 AM

I consider rhythmn guitar to be a specialty of mine, and along with the bass, the glue that holds everything together.

Over the years, I have developed a type of cross-picking style of rhythm guitar that helps establish a precise timing of a song. Like the bass, the rhythm guitar acts a timekeeping instrument. Unless, by design, songs should not slow down or speed up, but I believe should remain consistant.

I own both small bodied guitars and full size dreadnaughts and find the "D" sizes to be the best in driving a full bodied rhythm.

One of the great rhythm players in all of folk music I believe was Bob Shane of the Kingston Trio. He could make a D28 chug like a steam engine when necessary, and his timing was impeccable.

Dynamics is also a big part of rhythm guitar playing, when to back off and when to drive it home. In bluegrass, I don't care how flashy your lead players are, the rhythm guitar is the foundation. Check out Dan Tyminski in Allison Krause's Union Station

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: GLoux
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:27 AM

Hmmm...in general, the guitar in old-time is there to serve, whether it be an instrumental tune or a song. When we do songs, I try to keep the guitar's rhythm constant, so that all attention can be given to the singer(s) (especially if it's ME singing!), the fiddle and banjo usually back-off, and jump back in between the singing parts.

The rhythm (and everything else) should match the tune or song. If we're playing a real 'tick-burner' fiddle tune, the rhythm should match the intensity level of the fiddle and banjo. If it's a sweet love song, the rhythm should be appropriate. In multi-part gospel songs, the guitar is almost like a tick-track, with the real rhythm being in the voices...

Does this make sense?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:44 AM

The way folk/rock/blues/jazz guitar is generally played, there is a repeating strum or picking pattern that you play(often with slight, improvised variations)--it is so completely ingrained into our idea of what a guitar part is, that most people don't even think about what is happening, or how it works--at least, until you try to teach someone else how to do it--

When you try to teach it, and think about what you are actually doing, generally younotice that you are doing some combination of up and down strokes, and, you may even figure out that you can find easy phrases that correspond to the pattern--like BOOMBOOM Bop-BOOMBOOM Bop or baa-BOOM Shoobedoo BOP baa-BOOM Shoobedoo BOP or DUMdeedleUmDeedleUmDeedleUMdum----

After that, comes the realization that the melodies tend to consist of the same sort of rhythmic patterns --and then you notice that there are two different kinds of music--one where the melody and the accompaniment use the same pattern, and one, where they use different patterns--

The next thing that you might notice, is that, in the more interesting sorts of music, the breaks aren't really breaks in the rhythm pattern at all, but simply the pattern, or an ornamented version of the pattern, played as single notes--


That's about all I am going to say now Jerry--I will only point out that I used to get paid actual cash money for teaching essentially this to students who discovered that, once the realized it, they could play any kind of music they wanted--

Oh, and was that Stanley Jordan that you were thinking of?

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:45 AM

I'm not a singer..
my role in a band is electric rythm guitar/mandolin..
the drummer, and bass player, and me
are 'supposed' to be a disciplined co-ordinated team
and a well-oiled
[depends on quantity of beer consumed]
rythm machineL;
the singers / lead instrument players,
should be confident enough to depend on our rythmic song structure
to give them the freedom and space for their solos..

..in reality, we usually just need to be able to 2nd guess
where the lead guitarist is going to take us next..
if and when he can remember which song
we're all meant to be playing together at the same time..

Personaly, I prefere a more punk/rockabilly/country blues approach
to my playing..
repetitive single note riffs/ emphatic chord stabs/
sustained single chord strums/power chords..

My biggest complaint against some rythm guitar players
in more trad/acoustic folk bands..
is the tendency of the more ego-lead guitarists to inflict
too fast & overcomplicated jazz-fusion styles of rythm chording,
totally unsympathetic & distracting to the song the rest of their band are playing..

when all that should be required and more appropriate
would be simple open tuned rythmic 5th chord string drones....

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:47 AM

Keep it simple. Keep to the drones. Leave the lead guitarist to the flash.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:58 AM

First two words that popped into my mind when I read the title of this thread:

Richie Havens!

Whenever anyone speaks of "just strumming" in an apologetic or belittling manner, just think of him.

(Of course, not everyone has The Voice to go with it...)

The simplest minimal approach to guitar-as-percussion-instrument can be tremendously effective -- IF the player can bring a sense of conviction and a full-out commitment to the effort.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:00 AM

Yes, Mr. Havens is GREAT at that sort of thing...

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From:
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM

*ANOTHER* good one, Jerry!

As Mark Knopfler put it--"he's strictly rhythm, he doesn't want to make it cry or sing"...That's me.

Except that my rhythm isn't very strict, and, actually, I'd love to make it cry *and* sing, but I don't have the skills to do that yet.

Anyway, I find playing an effective rhythm guitar to be quite challenging, actually, and I'm getting enough skill to start to find it fun, instead of white-knuckle anxiety.

One thing sticks in my mind though...two years ago, I saw my long-ago guitar teacher (from whom I learned much) and told him that I was playing rhythm guitar mostly, he said, in what I took to be a disparaging tone, "Ah--just beating on the strings." I was kind of taken aback, and didn't pursue the topic--maybe I just caught him on a bad day. But I wonder how many musicians actually feel that way about rhythm guitar work.

another $0.02...

V

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:12 AM

I play rhythm guitar in a bluegrass band using a flatpick. In a 4/4 song I generally stick to "boom chick-a, boom chick-a, boom-2-3-4" with the boom being a bass string note, the chick being a strum downward on the chord, the -a being an upstroke on one of the higher strings, and the 2-3-4 being a bass run or series of single notes on the lower strings to get to the chord change. If the song is fast (don't get started on "all bluegrass songs are fast"!!) I skip the upstroke -a to get my right hand going a little faster.

In my not so humble opinion, the rhythm guitar usually drives a bluegrass band, but the bass has to keep in synch with the guitar and also drive. And then the mandolin chop is like a snare drum sometimes, completing the rhythm section. All parts are of course important and need to keep in rhythm, but I think the guitar fills the mid-range and holds it all together.

I know that sometimes our 5-piece band has to go without our usual bass player and I usually fill in on bass. That leaves an empty hole with no guitar, and I find it fairly tough to keep the drive on bass alone without the guitar chugging out rhythm. When the bass player and I switch instruments (just for a change of pace he plays my guitar and I pick up the bass) I have no such problem.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

Fingerpicking, I can get my accompaniments to follow me (by breaking or reversing the basic clawhammer, for example). It just seems to come naturally to me.

As a rhythym guitar player, however, I'm rubbish. I can't strum a guitar to save my life, and I really envy those who can - it's an art form in itself and one that can make or break a band IMHO.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

Rhythm is King in my book - if you ain't got that you can forget the rest. It's a great shame but I see a rising trend in fledgling guitarists trying to walk before they can run - and I blame much of it on the plethora of tab available on the internet. It's no good trying to master a few Clapton riffs, or fingerstyle patterns, if you haven't learnt the basics of timing and the dynamics of rhythm & chords.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

I have seen a video in the Elderly catalog on the art of playing rhythm guitar in bluegrass.

Get yourself a nice heavy flatpick!

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM

One more thing about rhythm in a bluegrass band. Imagine the count of 8 beats in a 4/4 song:

The guitar is doing boom chick-a, boom chick-a, boom-2-3-4, which is basically every one of those 8 beats.

The mandolin is chopping on 2, 4, 6, 8, adding some syncopation.

The bass is covering 1, 3, 5, 7.

So who's holding it all together? The guitar, which is setting the rhythm for the mandolin and the bass as well as itself. The mandolin plays on the guitar's chick-a and the bass plays on the guitar's boom.

And that's the way I see it. Don't tell that to my banjo-playing husband, who thinks banjos rule ...

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From:
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:36 PM

A propos of video instruction...I bought the Steve Kaufman Bluegrass Rhythm Guitar tape because several musicians I know recommended it as a good beginner's rhythm guitar lesson. With all due respect to him and to Homespun Videos, it goes way too fast for me to "get it". I rewind and replay and rewind and replay and rewind and replay and rewind and replay and rewind and replay and...you get the idea. I still don't "get it." Half an hour with Reynaud explaining what the tape segment is showing me, and I've "got it" enough to start practicing it.

I do wonder how many folks have had similar experiences with instructional videos. My experience made me very reluctant to buy another one.

I agree with the nice heavy flatpick, though--I use a cow horn pick that I'm quite thoroughly attached to!

V

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

Bob Brozman is a master of "percussive" guitar playing and, as well as slapping his guitar around, uses the finger-hammering technique you describe, Jerry.

When you listen to those tremendous gypsy-jazz players (Django et al) it's easy to be blinded by their virtuosity and overlook the rhythm player sitting next to him, driving the whole thing along. The chord changes are often so fast that the notes barely get chance to sound, making it as much a percussion tool as a musical instrument.
If I could just get my fingers to move fast enough........


C-flat.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

Just got home and checked in... a lot ofdgreat comments here. And yes, MTed, it was Stanley Jordan. I haven't heard anything about him in a long time.

Thanks for an explanation even I can understand about rhythm in a bluegrass band, Barbara..

One thing I wanted to comment on is unaccompanied singing. Why sing unaccompanied, if you're a good instrumentalist? There are some songs I sing unaccompanied just because I don't want to be tied down to the regularity of instrumental accompaniment. I want to be able to hold the notes, lean into them, stretch them out or bite them off and get my whole body into the song. There are a few songs where twisting my accompaniment around to follow the flow of my singing makes the instrument seem redundant and even counter-productive. Sometimes, I sing unaccompanied just because I like the sound of an unaccompanied voice, but more commonly it'sbecause I want to be free of any rhythm instruments other those that are internal.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

Don Ross also uses a lot of percussive techniques in his playing too, though he goes FAR beyond just rhythm with it. He wears out his guitars fairly quickly by beating the hell out of them, but the sound never goes over-the-top and messy.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:06 PM

I play the guitar in many ways, but not all ways. That is, there are methods, styles, that don't occur to me to attempt or master. Richie Havens was mentioned, and he's a strummer. Pretty much full-chord strums hitting all the strings, and I've never liked that.

But it might be effective on some songs, or in some situations. So I should learn how to do it effectively (it's got to be more than just waving the pick up and down through the plane of the strings).

Ditto classical guitar fingerpicking. I'm pretty good at ragtime fingerpicking, but classical picking is a foreign language to my fingers.

And single-note playing, like lead guitarists do (of course, for rhythm, that's not the point, but it's a style, and that IS the point). I should learn to do this, too.

And then apply it to my playing, choosing the most useful of the techniques (I almost said, "picking" the technique, but that's a pun and I'm avoiding puns in an attempt to lose weight) for a given song.

Now, what makes one technique/style better than another for the song? Part of it will be the song itself, of course. If you're trying to keep to a genre, say Cajun, you can't go too far afield in your accompaniment without sounding sort of non-Cajun, or even anti-Cajun. Like using Spanish rasquederos on "Jolie Blon."

Another factor is your own competence/confidence -- don't choose the newest, just-learned technique for that complex, just-learned song. It's hard enough to think of singing a hard song without having to think of the guitar part, too. Now, if you're accompanying someone else, that's a little less your problem, but you have the new problem of needing to listen and follow, and a just-learning-it-this-week technique may not be the best even in this case.

Someone mentioned singing unaccompanied in order to be free of the guitar's insistent thump. Well, I do that, but sometimes I try to sing freely OVER that thump. It's one of the harder things to do when accompanying yourself, that's for sure, but it can be helpful, since the steady rhythm reminds you of the pattern you're soaring above, and the chords help keep your sense of melody and pitch "on the up and square."

I tend to like, and learn, songs that fit some kind of inner "picture" of myself as a performer. There are wonderful songs I wouldn't ever try to learn, and others that I know backwards and forwards that, as songs, ain't that great. But they're what I'm used to, as the song says. And the guitar accompaniment should match this mental picture I have. Now, mental pictures can be of some OTHER player (like Doc Watson -- I'll never sound like him!), and that can be okay. Remember, though, you're not Joan Baez, or Rambling Jack Elliott, or Gordon Bok, so that picture will have to be Photoshopped to look like you.

But I'm not wedded to this picture of myself -- sometimes I try to see what that picture would look like in a different color, or with more contrast, so I'll try a different way to play the song that's in the frame at the moment.

For example, I wrote a song, "World of Time." I wrote in using finger-picking, sort of pattern-picking, a la Tom Paxton's early songs. Then I tried ragtime picking, Travis-picking, really, and that's the model I had for it. But flat-picking turns it more country, and I suppose it'd be even more different using the Richie Havens model. I don't think it'd be a good blues, though I could be wrong.

But I usually play it on banjo. Written on guitar, worked into a nice presentation piece on guitar, but works best on banjo.

And I wouldn't have known it if I hadn't tried to break the mold.

I guess that's the whole point of this rambling, Jack*.


Bob Clayton


* I couldn't resist that big, fat pun. No dessert for me, then. I have to save my calories somewhere.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:19 PM

The novelist, Emma Bull in War of the Oaks stated that rhythm player were there to make sure the lead players didn't fall down and hurt themselves.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM

If I'm in a session playing Irish tunes and suchlike, I see myself as doing the same job as a bodhran, but with strings. And that doesn't mean laying down the rhythm, it means following the mandolin or the fiddle, and lending emphasis to the rhythm in the tune, and providing some variants on it. Helping to drive things along, but not pushing it.

In fact most of the time in that kind of music, if your attention is drawn to the guitar, or the bodhran, they probably aren't doing the job they are there for.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:15 PM

Many folks don't get the attraction of playing rhythm. I admit in the celtoid group it gets pretty tedious sometimes (from my, the player's viewpoint) because there's so much vocal content, but in my other combos it's a blast playing rhythm.

My fiddle/guitar duo allows me to really stretch dynamics, rhythm, syncopation, and articulation devices (slides, slurs, hammer-ons, pull-offs, tremolo, etc), counter-melody, walking bass lines, and so on. Drones and open chords on the trad and celtic stuff, closed chords with 7ths and 9ths on the swing stuff, and just anything goes on whatever goes. In that situation I think I've got a cooler job than the fiddler who gets the glory...lucky me I don't like being the main attraction. The guitar is a percussion instrument, but one with strings and a drum, so drumming on it is good too.

I suppose I flatpick more than fingerpick, but when I fingerpick I'll often mix up the dynamics a bit by frailing a bit here and there, or playing full piano chords (a violinist once called them), not strummed but played with thumb and 3 fingers simultaneously.

To stay away from the melody line, I'll often stay off the first (high E) string, concentrating on the lower 5 strings. Illustrate this to yourself by playing only the first string of the chord and hear how stupid and distracting it sounds. The baritone excells in this application.

I want to play rhythm which isn't clashing with other instruments all the time, in register or in timbre, so I use several guitars regularly. The 12 string comes out if there isn't alot of other strings like bouzouki, cittern, or mandolin. The 6 string is an all purpose tool and the baritone covers a greater range when maybe the low end is ignored. I used to play alot of bass, especially fretless, but since I'm the only guitarist in my groups at present the groups prefer guitar. I should play bass more when the cittern comes out though. Yup, and bass can be a good rhythm instrument if the player can control the beat.

Recently I acquired a guitar shaped bouzouki (tuned GDAE) which is finding its way into the fiddle/guitar duo arrangements, and first impressions are very good, especially for the trad tunes.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:26 PM

To appreciate the value of "rhythm guitar", you have to remember that it, more than anything else, defines the musically style--As several folks illustrate above, you can change a song from old timey to jazz by changing the rhythm guitar part(and make a lot of people really angry at the same time;-)) or change a tune from blues to to rockabilly or from country to cajun--

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:54 PM

The thing that really sold me on being a guitarist was reading Eddie Condon's autobiography at a young impressionable age. he seemed to have had a really exciting life. Condon played with some great people like Fats Waller, Bud Freeman and Bix Beiderbeck. He was a rhythm player. i read somewhere he played a four string guitar. And he had a jug band at one point - the Mound City something.

Any of you guys ever see him in action. I believe he had a jazz club in New York.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:21 PM

Barbara Shaw's posts have explained my own guitar technique almost perfectly - although I don't play in a bluegrass band and don't consider myself a bluegrass musician. The only difference is that I carry the bass run thing to extremes, often sustaining a bass run all over the place for several measures, or playing melody in the bass, within the boom-chucka rhythm, as Maybelle Carter did (only she used thumb for the boom and first finger for the chucka, and I use a flatpick). Rambling Jack did much the same on most of his stuff. It's one of the most common techniques for accompanying any kind of folk stuff, probably because once the motion becomes automatic, you don't have to pay much attention to it and can concentrate on singing.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Mooh
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:31 PM

M.Ted..I agree, and I love to do just that, change the nature of the tune according to the gig, my mood, or just to be adventurous.

Pig Ankle Rag (it's in the Fiddlers' Fake Book) is a good example of a tune that works well as a rag, shuffle, even a sort of surf-rock anthem, or bluegrass reel. Sometimes to start such a tune as one entity then switch for the second or third time through really kickstarts the arrangement, and makes it more fun to play.

Star Of The County Down in 3/4 and 4/4, but folks like it as a waltz if they're inclined to dance.

Any number of reels can be played as hornpipes and vice versa (maybe Boys Of Bluehill and Rights Of Man, though I'm sure I've got better examples), and again, lots of folks like the danciness of the hornpipe 'cause it swings.

Starting a fast tune as a lament can work too, so long as it's not overdone before it kicks up to speed.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: HuwG
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:51 PM

mooh, well done on your guitar-shaped bouzouki. The only other person I have ever met who plays one of these is Andy Irvine. As he said during a performance, "This is what I call a guitar-bodied eight-stringed Irish derivative of the bouzouki. The last time I called it a bouzouki was at a gig in London. Eight Cypriot Greeks appeared from nowhere, shouted 'Is not bouzouki!' and started throwing things."





As a session player mainly, I find that the rhythm I play is determined by the fiddler's elbow - the fiddle players I know are capable of anything from slip jigs which seem to have a built-in hiccup, to reels which are played in the manner of someone sawing a two-by-four in half, lengthways.

And as for the squeeze-box players ... whatever you do, don't ask, "What time signature is this ?". You would rather not know.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Mooh
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

HuwG...That's funny! When the idea of the guit-zouk was hatched I was calling it an octave mandolin but ultimately thought the scale was too long for the name. Now I generally refer to it as "guit-zouk", though "Joshua" might be more fitting as that's the name of the builder, and it won't get things thrown at me as in your Andy Irvine tale. LOL.

Slip jigs always feel like a 3/4 swing to me with the emphasis on the first beat of every second measure, or something like that. I wonder who really cares though, and I'm not sure I ever do it the same way twice. I do know that The Butterfly seems to be popular when we play it.

Cool topic.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

For Pete Jennings, who can't strum to save his life: I was in the same boat, my flatpick invariably ending up buried in the bowels of the instrument or zinging off across the room. Then I went to the Puget Sound Guitar Workshop and took a basic boom-chuck flatpicking class--what a revelation, and what fun! Finally, when I moved from the country (Big Island) back to the city (Honolulu), I joined up with some folks who were being taught to be an Irish band. The teacher, a wonderful musician named Curtis Vandeloop, got me moving my pick across all the strings in both directions to accompany Irish tunes. I'm still a mediocre guitarist, but now when my contradance band plays a jig I can play a solid rhythm with a bit of power and style. Get a good teacher and try it...you'll like it!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

I believe the faster you play, the simpler.
Time can be developed by working with a good drummer, drum machine, metonome or synth.
Groove is knowing the patterns.
Stay out of the way of the lead player/singer.
Reharmonize according to musical style.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Guitar as a Rhythm Instrument
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:32 AM

Mmm. I dunno, Mark, I play solo so there's no real incentive. Mind you, I could live with the idea of a guitar workshop in Hawaii. Yes, please!

Pete