Obit - Folk music and its relevance

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 08:19 AM

PS - John Routledge

You state thtat effort needs to be put into enjoying certain forms of music and young people should realize this????

Did the village kids of a century ago who used to do traditional dances to traditional tunes put an effort into learning to enjoy their heritage? Or did they do it because it was fun, because that's what all the other kids in the village did, because that's what was around them and produced by "the folk"? I know which answer my money's on, and it doesn't involve regular attendance at workshops.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: VIN
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 08:33 AM

I agree with you jaqui.c and others who believe that if you go to a gig expecting a certain style/genre, whatever, of music/dance/song,then that's what you should get ('specially if you've paid). I sometimes attend classical concerts and love traditional and contempory music but whilst i would'nt mind hearing a Fairport song during the interval of a Mahler or Beethovan Janacek evening (i'm weird that way) i think the sex pistols or a bit of 'rap' music would definately un-nerve me a bit and stretch my tolerance level a bit too much. If i attend a poetry evening, i expect to hear poetry.

I would'nt expect or want to attend a morris dance session only to find it taken over by ballroom dancers (no offence to B/D's intended).

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:03 AM

Lovely point made way up there by smiler:
How can a tradition evolve, if people are clinging in the past, to an ideal that probably never existed in the first place?

Just what are peoples' attitude to traditional music? Do they want to freeze it in time, preserve it and keep it unchanging? It probably went through various versions before the version we have now. Or do people want it to grow and evolve, and reflect contemporary issues?

There's a thread in the BS section at the moment about petitions against building a motorway past the Hill of Tara in Ireland. This is a decent anaology. Most people are understandably upset at the idea of destroying a very rich archaeological landscape. But how far do we go to try and preserve things, be it song or stone? I'm not saying a motorway is necessarily a great need right there in the landscape, but, if it was, then should we be halting development relevant to us today just because it messes with what we have defined as "our past"? The twentieth century is "our past" too, just as much (if not more) than the centuries before. Is it wise to freeze things? Should we be changing and evolving to suit our current needs? I'm not advocating a set path, just trying to discover why people are so set on labelling something "old", putting it on a shelf and treating it reverently when it was actually made to be used, and to be relevant. There's a tendancy to hark back to a "traditional" past, some arcadian setting of all things we view as exemplifying folk, and yet   no one seems to be able to say when that actually was...

I like shepherdlass' point:
Did the village kids of a century ago who used to do traditional dances to traditional tunes put an effort into learning to enjoy their heritage? Or did they do it because it was fun, because that's what all the other kids in the village did, because that's what was around them and produced by "the folk"? I know which answer my money's on, and it doesn't involve regular attendance at workshops.
I grew up listening to Irish music, so it's very relevant to me, and I like the new twist and turns it has taken over time. My friends didn't grow up with it. "Their" music is rock, or pop, or the ubiquitous "Country and Irish"/"Culchie and Western". Why the hell should I throw my hands up in despair and tell them that actually "their" music is traditional (folk) music. It's clearly not, if they don't identify with it.

p.s. I like punk

p.p.s. I hate overusing quotation marks, but it had to be done

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM

Relevant, Schmelevant! How pretentious to even ask the question, Guest!

I jazz "relevant?" Or pop music? Relevant to what? What does that even mean? Do you mean, do people want to listen to what you think is "folk?" And if they don't, you've proved your point?

Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wot a stupid conversation....

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM

Jerry is correct!!

As Utah Phillips is fond of saying, THE PAST DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE.

Yes, it's still here---now. But we live in a time that ignores the past and bulls foreward ignoring the real virtues of history and past lessons. Those of us who came through the years valuing the values of the past know the worth of tradition and the tales (some with good tunes) found therein. For me, at least, the music has never ever been more relevant! And it will always be so.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

"Obit-Folk music and its relevance"

Folk music died!!!! - I'm a ghost!!!!.........living in a ghost town........everywhere I go other ghosts are singing folk songs..............and there's so many of them..........or maybe it's just a dream..........

Danger, danger - I might wake up and find myself in the other place

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Grab
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM

This guest has probably upped and run away after throwing his vitriol grenade in the door. But in case he is still around - Danger Danger, what were the songs you got chucked out for?

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM

Did the village kids of a century ago who used to do traditional dances to traditional tunes put an effort into learning to enjoy their heritage?

They would certainly have put an effort into learning how to do those dances, which isn't that easy. And play the tunes too, if that was what they were into - and that always requirees a lot of effort. And I would think it rather unlikely that they would start off from the assumption that the only music worth listening to was from people their own age, and that there is an unbridgeable gap between their music and the music of their parents' generation. More likely their attitude would have been that they could do that stuff better, because tney had more strength and vigour.

Which is in fact how it tends to work within the folk community these days, more especially at festivals.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Linael
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

I have thought about this before (Ignoring it is like sticking ones head in the sand) and I have come to two conclusions that make me feel comfortable in learning and singing 100-400 year old songs:

1. Many of the Traditional songs that we still have today were recorded in the early 1900's - which means that people were singing them (relevant or not) from when they were originally composed right up until... the early 1900's. Who are we to say that these songs aren't good enough for our sophisticated palates?

2. Relevance is a tricky thing to apply to folk, not because folk is irrelevent but because, traditionally speaking, folk songs are typically not political, not protest, and not satirical (Ok, there are exceptions to the rule) and therefore have NEVER been relevant to anything but entertainment.

Political/Protest songs are great in a homogenous group of people but in a room full of typical folkies (politically diverse, to say the least) they run the risk of offending people - and offended people don't sing much.

Thanks for listening

Linael

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: BB
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

Hand-Pulled Boy said, 'Most folk clubs are keen to label their door as traditional.' Having contacted most folk clubs in the UK in search of bookings, or not done so if it was blindingly obvious that they weren't interested in 'traditional', I would dispute that statement, even to the extent of saying that most don't label themselves as traditional, or are blatantly *not* traditional. From my point of view, would that more didn't label themselves!

Now I don't have a problem with those that are not purely traditional - in fact, I prefer a wide range of music that comes under a vague heading of 'folk' to be presented in the clubs, in spite of the fact that most of what we do is 'traditional' or in that style. I think 'traditional' would be a lot more acceptable to many more people if there was more of an 'anything goes' policy in more clubs - where anything under that umbrella was welcomed and appreciated, where there is a wide range of guests from the traditional source singers to the young singer-songwriters to the 'entertainers' and all shades in between, and all equally appreciated for being good at what they do. That was the climate that I grew up in in the folk scene of the '60s and early '70s in England and my feeling is that the scene was better for it. Maybe I was lucky in the clubs that I came into contact with then, but I do yearn for that eclecticism now, and do try to provide it in the monthly club/session that I help to organise.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

McGrath of Harlow: Yes - they'd have put an effort into learning the dances which were available at the time, and they'd have valued the skills of the older generation. I'm sure many kids who want to play punk songs now are not so presumptious as to assume that 3 chords is all you need (Joe Strummer - to name one senior member of that tradition - put paid to that idea yonks ago). There are a lot of lessons in history to which we can defer - the worrying thing is when only one is seen as exclusively on the side of the good. Also, it seems clear that in previous centuries, the older generation of musicians adapted at least a few songs of the day - otherwise, the tradition would have stagnated before the Normans landed.   

I'm not attacking the older generation (I'm over 40 anyway) or the folk community - I've seen intolerance from purists of the folk AND punk (and jazz, and hip-hop, and reggae, and classical .....) stamp. It worries me, though, that a young musician who felt rejected after an open mic session is assumed by so many (who, like me, weren't there) to be an arrogant young whippersnapper. My comments were rooted in playing devil's advocate - and asking if there's room for open-mindedness on both sides.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM

This looks to me like yet another banana our collective intellects have failed to straighten.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: John Routledge
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM

Yes Shepherdlass it is indeed sad when any young musician is discouraged from performing. They are the future.

The young musicians at Folkworks Summer School spend much time adapting tunes and writing their own songs and tunes some of which will no doubt pass into the Tradition along with some of the tunes written by their tutors which are now already almost fully absorbed.
They don't seem to have the hangups that many older folkies have for which we should be grateful:0)

I spend a lot of time with music and song because I enjoy it in its many guises. All I ask of others is to have a couple of hours every other week where I can sing/listen to songs sung in a way that I enjoy. When in other venues I respect what the people there are doing and will sing or play if appropriate. What does appropriate mean? :0)

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

I thought the general response to GUEST,Danger danger was polite enough, guve or take (the odd bods who specialise in being rude to just about everyone).

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Nemesis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Apologies, somewhat belated response to John C:

You correctly discerned the point of my post - this is a thread about the future, or not, of folk music. The input of teenagers therefore is relevant. They are the future.

To banish them all to "their bedrooms to do homework" is as a curmudgeonly a response to youth's contribution and input to music as the earlier thread that decries them thus: "Teenagers ... are encouraged to believe that only their (manipulated) tastes are "relevant"; they are an impressionable and economically active market (though it is usually Mummy or Daddy's money) and, frankly, a soft touch."

Some of them are in their bedrooms doing their music homework - it does still exist on the curriculum, at least in some schools!

Shirley Collins 4 Uber Cool Teens

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM

Teenagers are the future, but then so are people in their twenties, and their thirties, and their cradles for that matter.

The point is, there are people who can resist that kind of manipulation, and such people are no rarer among teenagers than any other age range - and they are the people who make it a future worth listening to. (Whatever kind of music they make.)

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:44 PM

I mentioned teenagers only as an illustration (mainly because it is in relation to them that older music pundits speak fatuously of "making folk music relevant": I do realise that many have genuinely individual ideas of their own; presumably in about the same proportion as the rest of the community). It's a pity, with hindsight, that I did so; it has given some people the opportunity to narrow the discussion, to avoid addressing important issues, or to indulge personal prejudices. Never mind. Few of us can anticipate the way these kinds of discussion may develop.

We know very little about the person who originally started the thread; I doubt if he or she is particularly young, as it happens. The tone is petulant and no useful information is given. There will always be people who assume on a knee-jerk basis that anybody who complains about something must have genuine grounds for complaint, but that's really quite a dangerous assumption.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: PennyBlack
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:33 AM

"There will always be people who assume on a knee-jerk basis that anybody who complains about something must have genuine grounds for complaint, but that's really quite a dangerous assumption"

- I think the only way to respond is to presume the comments made were factual (innocent till proven guilty) and then judge comments on the stated fact, all in all anything said here will make no real changes to what happens and we're not a jury.

With lack of response from all parties involve only passing comments or rebuffing the original thread starter.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 08:59 AM

'Most folk clubs are keen to label their door as traditional.'

This certainly isn't true of folk clubs in Sheffield/Sth Yorkshire (though there are several where traditional is the norm) - and in my experience "anything goes" gets a warm reception, as do young performers (bring them in - we certainly need them to create a better balance). Maybe it's one reason why clubs in this area continue to thrive - long may it continue.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 09:08 AM

Are you talking about folk clubs or acoustic open events? A lot of Hull people can't spell traditional (or anything for that matter!), so there's no notice on any door. Vagrants often walk in and then reveal themselves as musicians. Often a pleasant surprise. Now I'm contradicting myself Jim as you've realised. Sheffield sounds really nice, can I bring some of my friends?

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM

Bring them all HPB - and sample our hand-pulled ales too - looking forward to your music & good company!

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

eggsthalent!

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM

Funny how things come around. I was reminded of a wonderful essay by Mike of Northumbria while reading this thread. A link to England, Whose England can be found in in this thread from four years back.
But enough of looking back...
For folk music to become 'relevant' to people other than us, it ought at least to be done well - not necessarily musically well, but well enough to grab an audience by the ears and make the hairs on the back of their neck stand up. Like good punk does. One of the reasons I love punk is because of the sheer energy and emotion that the best stuff conveys.
If it's an open-mike evening, what's wrong with a a punk take on folk. It doesn't seem to have done Chumbawunba, the Pogues or even the Oysterband any harm. Or are we so insecure as folkies that we we still have to shout out 'Judas' when something doesn't conform to our tidy notion of what folk should be?

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:33 PM

I don't think there've been many people on the thread who'd disagree with Gervase there. And I can't remember ever being in a folk cklub ir session where that wasn't more or less the way things worked.

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:02 PM

And the late Alex Campbell was a grand example of one who was able to do this!!

In workshops I used to do I tried to show teachers how they could make folksongs relavant for their nstudents. It meant a bit of work for them. They needed to search for songs that illustrated the historical era, the geographic region, the piece of art, or the work of literature they strove to make into an illustrative tool for those parts of the curriculum. The words to the song, even more than the tune, showed life in those other eras in the words of people who had lived through that. Singing a given folksong for or with the students was, as I'm fond of saying, a time machine of sorts that could truly transport and enlighten.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Obit - Folk music and its relevance
From: GUEST,David Edwards
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 05:41 AM

I have a vision of the Copper family dressed in bondage gear with safty pins stuck throught their ears, pogoing to Shepherds arise...