looking for celtic songs in French

Subject: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

I sing with a Celtic band and am looking for songs in French because I love singing in that language. I'm vaguely aware that Brittany has a celtic culture and their language is French - can anyone recommend a place to get started?

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 11:07 AM

Well, one thing I might clarify that Breton languge has gaelic roots and not latin roots like French, but I would be interested in learning about any Breton songs. The only one I have heard is on a CD called Mouth Music.

Brian

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

Look for a group called, I think, Tri Yann. They probably sing in all three languages of Brittany - French, Breton and Gallo. You should also check out Dastum, the agency which collects and publishes Breton traditional song. I have a sampler CD here which they publish to get the songs circulating.

Also, there are probably a large number of French language Breton songs sung in Quebec. You might check that out by reading books by Marius Barbeau.

siân

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

Merci beaucoup. Quebec is the obvious place to look (hand slapping forehead)!

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:06 PM

One song that Great Big Sea covers is "Trois Navires de Ble", towards a traditional style.... there's a couple of threads with some history and a translation of the song. Bonne chance!

Also, as a bit of a side, Zachary Richard is a French singer with Maritime Canada roots, combining an Acadian/Zydeco style with Celtic influences... not sure if it would be what you are looking for, but he's definitely "Folky" (and that is meant in a nice way!).


Brian.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:20 PM

I would suggest "La Bottine Souriante" (the Smiling Boot), a Quebec group that performs traditional Celtic style music, with songs in French.

I only know of the group, and have heard them on radio and television, but unfortunately do not have any of their discs. Maybe a google search would come up with something.

Jack Hickman

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:35 PM

excellent choice from Jack... a friend of mine has one of their CDs and it would probably fit in with what you are looking for

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:56 PM

Has Alain Stivell not been mentioned yet? If not, check him out, made some great albums in the 70s. He's a Bretagne piper and singer: a great one.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:59 PM

Stivell practically never sings in French, for political reasons.

Tri Yann is a good bet; as you say, they sing in standard French, Gallo and Breton. They sing in English--very badly--on their first couple of CDs! Their best one for French songs and ballads is Suite Gallaise from 1974 or thereabouts, reissued on CD a few years back.

There's a trio called Brou-Hamon-Quimbert that is great,

If you're looking to French Canada, I'd recommend:

La Volee D'castors (Quebec) (young group with lots of energy)
Matapat/Le Vent Du Nord (Quebec)
Hommage aux Aines (Quebec)(sturdy middle-aged folks with great songs)
Entourloupe (Quebec)(good acoustic arrangements)
Barachois (PEI)(Brilliant family group)
Vishten (PEI) (More young folks)
Also, a good folk-rock band, Garolou, has several CDs.

La Bottine Souriante is a good bet; look to discs from before 1988 for acoustic, "folk-style" arrangements, after for more eclectic arrangements with a brass section. The band was great in both styles.

You can get some of this stuff by mail order from
here

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: smuggler
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:42 PM

A couple of french sites with a mix of Sea Shanties (Chants de Marin) and other stuff. Also some links. If you go to some links on the first one you will get to other links which you might find interesting.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/bmarcore/marins/M001.htm
http://www.hisse-et-oh.com/chants/index.php
http://pgoh.free.fr/french_songs.php (some folky stuff within French standards)

All three sites are worth a look.

Enjoy

Alan

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: John Routledge
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:01 PM

Lorient in Brittany hosts a huge Interceltique Festival every year   5-14 August 2005.

Looking at their guest list for 2004 may give you some ideas.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:31 PM

Try Kornog too. Good band.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:23 PM

A gorgeous cd of unaccompanied traditional songs, some French, some Breton (some solo, some not) sung by 4 Breton women is

Femmes de Bretagne, from Keltia Musique

It's gorgeous.

You might try Keltia Musique's web site for more ideas, too.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

The French immigrants to Acadia (Nova Scotia) came primarily from Brittany. When England defeated the French in Canada, a small part of this population stayed put, but large numbers relocated to Louisiana, where "Adadians" became "Cajuns."

The Cajuns, therefore, are a Celtic people, largely descended from Bretons. I've heard arguments on both sides of the question whether there is *any* discernable relation between current-day Cajun and Celtic music. I don't have a position, myself, except to observe that both groups play a hell of a lot of squeezebox and fiddle.

If Cajun music is close enough to Celtic for your purposes, there's plenty of it available. The singing is definitely in French, although it's a dialect of North American French that is pretty far away from modern Parisian usage.

Zachary Richard, "the Cajun Mick Jagger," has been mentioned -- someone who is pretty much on the rock 'n' roll fringe of the Cajun universe. (Well, his music is definitely "roots" rock, and in that sense I suppose it has a basically folk-ish orientation.) I really like him, but I'm unsure that more trad-oriented types would share my enthusiasm.

You might check out Beausoleil, a terrific ensemble that does a good job of preserving traditional material with a relatively contemporary sensibility -- perhaps somewhat analagous to what The Chieftains have been doing with Irish music for years. You might find that some of Beausoleil's material meets your needs while other numbers may not.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Splott Man
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 05:19 AM

Alan Stivell has already been mentioned.
Any of the spin offs from his band, such as Dan ar Bras (very rocky).
Also Gabriel Yacoub, Malicorne, Ys.

Try these sites too (sorry can't do blue clickies)...

http://www.fest-noz.net/
http://www.musiques-bretonnes.com/

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:01 AM

Quelle réponse! Thanks so much, everyone. I am looking forward to going through all these leads. Poppagator, I am a big fan of Beausoleil - had the privilege of hearing Mssr Doucet in a concert that also featured Brendan Mulvihill and that dancing Cape Breton fiddler (her name escapes me), and it was unforgettable. But I'm going to leave Cajun music to those who can do it justice.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 01:53 PM

What evidence is there(apart from wishful thinking) that cajun music is "Celtic"? I have heard a great deal of traditional Breton music recordings, and a huge amount of early cajun stuff, and it seems to me the musical evidence isnt really there. So what historical evidence do we have that the cajun families were originally from a mainly Breton background? Now, I know the most famous cajun fiddler was called McGee, so he might conceivably be classified as Celtic, but I think we need a bit more than that. There was a famous cajun musician called Kershaw too, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that cajun music comes from Lancashire.
    No, if you want Celtic songs in French, make Brittany your first port of call I reckon.Impeccable Celtic background, and French the majority language(nowadays, at any rate).

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 02:01 PM

Sort of pedantic note - "Breton languge has gaelic roots". No it hasn't. The gaelic (or "Goidelic") languages are Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx. Breton is one of the other ("Brythonic") branch of Celtic languages, fairly closely related to Welsh and Cornish. The connections between the two branches of Celtic languages are fairly distant.

But there's no need to get hung up about "Celtic" - there's plenty of music from other parts of France which have many of the same musical qualities as much Breton music.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 05:33 PM

When you trace the genealogy of Cajuns, it turns out that very few Cajuns are descended from Bretons. Cajuns are mainly descended from people in neighboring Poitu, Normandy, etc. However, I would agree that Cajun music is a good place to look. For old traditional songs, I'd go to the Balfa Brothers and to Magnolia Sisters. They do a number of French-language folk songs that you could also hear in versions from Brittany.

It's pointless to argue about the "Celtic" status of French songs, by the way. Whether a French-language song is ever "Celtic" is open to dispute. On the one hand, almost any traditional song in French that is collected in Brittany has also been collected elsewhere in France.   In 90% of the cases, it is not a "Breton song in French," but a French song that has wound up in Brittany.

Then, too, the French speaking people living in Brittany up until the eighteenth century were by and large not Bretons ethnically, although they lived in the political duchy dominated by Bretons. They were French people in Brittany, and their songs were French songs in Brittany, not "Celtic songs in French." By the same reasoning that calls them "Celtic songs in French," modern Breton songs are not Celtic, but "French songs in Breton!"

Linguistically, French is by definition not Celtic, but a Germanic-influenced Romance language, so some would argue that there are no Celtic songs in French. (McGrath is exactly right as regards the Gaelic claim, also.) This is why Stivell doesn't do French, BTW.

On the other hand, French people are largely descended from Celts, just as English people are. The Germanic and Latinate ancestors of both English and French people were culturally dominant, but numerically fewer, than the Celtic ancestors. So maybe all French songs are Celtic. They were made by people descended from Celts, who at one time changed their language to something non-Celtic, just like modern Irish people who speak English. I'd buy that argument, too.

My point is, it doesn't matter if you consider them "Celtic" or not--there's a good argument to be made either way. Better to just enjoy them as traditional French language songs. Cast your net widely: Cajuns, Quebeckers, Acadians...even people in other regions of France! I'd recommend the band Malicorne, for example.

Indeed, one of my favorite possessions is a box set of fourteen CDs plus a 900 page book of French folk songs. it's called "Anthologie de La Chanson Francaise, La Tradition." It set me back about three hundred US dollars, but it's great. The CDs are by the greatest artists of the French folk revival, and the book is a great addition.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:51 PM

Do sing any song you like the sound of, in French, English, Irish or whatever. You'll never be able to figure out if they are "Celtic" or not. France has a similar linguistic history to Ireland and England(among others). These countries used to have a majority speaking a Celtic language, now they don't. French has taken over decisively in the case of the first one, English in the other two. Such is history. Whether a good thing or not, that's what's happened. All countries have wonderful songs, in all sorts of languages. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:33 PM

If the opinion I passed along is false, that the Cajun people are largely descended from Breton emigrants to Acadia, sorry about that.

I've read essays and heard "authoritative" interviews asserting that many of the French family names commonly recognized in Louisiana as "Cajun" names are still common in Brittany, just as many of our our "Creole" French names are largely from north-central France, around Paris and Orleans. This theory, correct or not, was the basis for my proposing that Cajuns might be considered "Celtic" -- because they're (arguably) Breton, not because some might be Irish, with last names like McGee.

Actually, there are a number of prominent Cajun clans with names that are French, English, Irish, etc., due to intermarriage, even though the members of these families all probably have predominantly Cajun-French ancestry. The famous Cajun TV chef-comedian Justin Wilson is an example; he has an Anglo surname, but you can bet that his mother's maiden name, and his father's mother's maiden name, etc., all sound a lot more French than "Wilson."

While there has always been *some* intermarriage of Cajuns with a few neighbors of other European nationalities, the community as a whole remained remarkably homogeneous and isolated from the outside world until an unusually late date, well into the 20th century. Many Cajuns live in areas that were accessible only by shallow-draft boats, not by roads at all, until oil drillers came to their doorsteps in the 1930s or so. Until then, English was still a foreign language in most Cajun areas; since then, English was introduced and required required in schools, and the speaking of French quickly became a sign of second-class citizenship. In recent years, there has been a revival on enthusiasm and interest in preserving Cajun French language and culture.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:41 AM

Poppagator: sorry,I only threw the Denis McGee and Doug Kershaw in as a diversionary joke, it was quite clear you you were talking about Breton Celticism. But I would seriously query your argument about the cajuns keeping essentially separate from the rest of the world. I think you have completely overlooked the major influence on cajun music. I think if you take a cool look at Canadian French music, French French music, and Louisiana French(cajun) music, and consider the similarities and differences, you will come to exactly the same conclusion as virtually everyone else who has studied this. Which is: that the main roots of cajun music are black. Surely the significantly interesting thing about cajun music is not its Celticism, but the fact that black and white music integrated to a remarkable degree in rural Louisiana, in marked contrast to what happened in other parts of southern USA. (I only refer to music, I am not discussing to social and sexual interactions, that is another whole area of research).

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:43 AM

Perhaps I should be less lonwinded. I have spent a big chunk of my life palying and studying cajun music. I do it necause it's wonderful music, whether it's Celtic, French, black or Martian.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:28 AM

With regard to Susan-Marie's reference to that "dancing Cape Breton fiddler", she can only be referring to Natalie MacMaster, a most outstanding performer, both musical and a treat to the eyes.

Jack Hickman

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Marje
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:47 PM

Thank you, both "Nerd" and Greg, for meeting head-on with the "celtic" bit of this request. If someone likes the sound of French and wants to sing in French, then why does it matter whether the music is "celtic" or not?

As has been mentioned in previous threads, the concept of "celtic" is a relatively recent one and only has any real meaning in relation to a group of languages; and French, however much one likes the sound of it, is not a celtic language.

The French, like the various inhabitants of the UK and Ireland, have varying amounts of celtic blood in their veins, but isn't it a bit racist to start worrying about exactly how "celtic" a person or a group of people are? I find this line of enquiry makes me a bit uneasy - how many of us would feel comfortable if it were "black" or "Aryan" ancestry that was being sought out?

Let's just accept that music is the result of all sorts of cultural influences, one of the least significant of which is the racial make-up of the musicians.

Marje

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:53 AM

Greg, sorry I took too seriously what you meant as a joke.

I hadn't given much thought to the African influence in Cajun music, and I don't see that there's any more such influence there than there is in the many other musical forms to evolve in southern Louisiana (e.g., jazz). A bit less so, indeed, I would say.

Throughout the US and especially in the South (where most black people have lived until relatively recently), there has been much more interaction between the races in music than in "real life," and of course we're all much better off for it.

I think of "straight" traditional Cajun music as being dictinct from Zydeco and any other music of the French-speaking Blacks "Creoles." While Zydeco seems to have taken many characteristics of Cajun music and mixed in plenty of African and African-American elements, I don't hear nearly as much influence in the other direction, that is, of black music upon the white Cajun tradition. I know there has to be some, if for no other reason that musicians of both races have often "crossed over" to play with each other in various ensembles, but among the audiences and communities as a whole, there has been nearly as much segregation among French-speakers as among Southerners in general. Real animosity and Bull-Connor-style repression have never been part of the Cajun/Creole scene, but there is a long history of the inclination to "keep with one's own kind."

Just my opinion, of course, based on living hereabouts for 35 years -- but *not* for my whole life...

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Brían
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:00 PM

I believe there is a definite celtic influence in Quebecois music through the singing of Mary travers (La Bolduc). She used mouth music and even lilted a version of

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Brían
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:07 PM

oops. JOHNNY WILL YOU MARRY ME? on a recording. La Bottine Souriante does a lot of her songs as well as a few Scottish and Irish tunes in their repetoire. Their are many people of Irish ancestry in Quebec and their policies and attitude toward the orphans of people who died in the crossing or quarrantines like Grosse Isle permitted them to keep their Irish names although understandably, most of their descendents speak French as a first language. I believe mary Travers was Acadian from New Brunswick who migrated to Montreal in the 1930's.

Brían

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:40 PM

It's quite possible to trace historical racial roots without being racist. The trick is to appreciate all races and cultures while studying those of particular interest to yourself.

Who cares if someone's tracing black influences on music, or aryan, or celtic, or romanic influences? It's history. History contains a hell of a lot of racism but that doesn't mean that studying history or even parts of history makes one racist by itself! It's only claiming that one race is superior to others and trying to stamp out or opress the other races that makes racism.

Studying the roots of music is studying the roots of music, not saying that any of those roots are better than the others!

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:26 PM

Poppagator: have a listen to the music of Amadee Ardoin, whose style surely influenced and shaped the whole of cajun music(and creole ,La La and zydeco); he is the definitive early Louisiana accordion stylist, judging by the recordings we have access to. And he was a black musician. There were hundreds of accordionists at that time in Canada, and in Paris. And none of them played, or sung, anything remotely like Amadee Ardoin. Whereas the white Louisiana players all played and sung very like Amadee. I rest my case! Mainly black music,not Celtic.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:32 PM

OK greg, you got me there.

I knew about Bois Sec Ardoin, but had forgotten his real first name, and I also have forgotten the name of his long-time partner, a white Cajun fiddler. I'm sure you can enlighten us!

Do we have recordings of any Cajun accordian players before Bois Sec? There is no doubt that he was importantly creative and original, but I wonder just how radically different he might have been, compared -- not to Parisian or Quebecois players -- but to his Cajun contemporaries and immeidate predecessors.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:36 PM

Another great CD in Breton and French with English translation notes is Loerou Ruz, Amser ar merc'hed

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:45 PM

There's some cajun cd's on overstock.com - not sure how good the company is but it might be worth checking out for the prices. I saw several names from this thread there.

Subject: RE: looking for celtic songs in French
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:22 AM

Poppagator: Amadee Ardoin played with his white partner fiddler Denis McGee on a lot of records in the 20's. (Black and white musicians playing tgether was not unusual in cajun country, though less common elsewhere). Bois Sec Ardoin (who was black) was a more modern player, who only died recently.His sons are still active zydeco musicians.
    There are some fantastic recordings of early black French music, wondefrul stuff. The Lawtell Playboys kept the old style going for many years, but that style has largely given way to more modern zydeco now: Delton Broussard's and Bois Sec's sons are all zydeco players now, and have given up playing like there dads.