Been thinking of taking up the violin...

Subject: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:15 AM

or fiddle. Whadda ya think? What's the best way to learn?

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:29 AM

The first thing is to be a single person, or have a large enough house to get out of earshot of your partner. otherwise severe strains will develop in your relationship, during the first few months of your attempts. Other than that, go for it. You have a lifetime of pleasure ahead of you. Get a cheap fiddle(£100 or equivalent will be fine), decide what you style you fancy, buy the book or the video, or ask around for a teacher near you, and you're off.
    There is one possibly big problem, which you will soon find out, if you don't know already. You need a fairly good ear to play fiddle. With the guitar, you can get away with it, also keyboards, accordions, bodhrans etc. With the fiddle there's no protection, there are no frets to keep you in tune. If you can't keep it in tune(and a cerftain percentage of people can't) you'll have to give up, but there are plenty of other instruments to have fun with.
    Do persevere, you are about to start a relationship with the greatest instrument in the world.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:31 AM

Alert your neighbours to avoid visits from the SPCA. While you practise, people may think you're strangling cats.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:45 AM

Personally I find it quite satisfying. Having practiced diligently for at least 10 or 12 hours over the past couple of years, the pocket change people give me to stop is really handy.

John

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Sabine
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:56 AM

Why not?
I always wanted to play the fiddle since I was a child but my parents didn't allow it.
Then, during the years, I had no time but kept it always in mind.

Now March this year I started to take lessons together with my youngest daughter who is 12 years now.
After 3 months we split the lessons because I am a very fast learner :o)

I don't care about any neighbours *eg* but keep on playing and hopefully will be able to join a session next year. Only one set of hornpipes but that for sure!!!

I know that I never will be one of the greatest and that it might take years before I am a real fiddler. But, so what, it's a lot of fun.

Regards

Sabine

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:05 AM

What is your first set of hornpip[es, Sabine?

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Sabine
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:13 AM

ehm..... boys of bluehill, rights of men....can't remember the name of the third at the moment :o)

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: cobber
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:24 AM

Good luck and don't listen to criticism. After all, your ears are closer than theirs. Seriously though, my fiddle took me around the world a couple of times and all over Australia for thirty odd years (bloody odd years!)so I guess I'm fairly qualified to advise you. I have to disagree with Greg, though I know many would agree with him. My experience as a player and as a teacher is that you should get the best fiddle you can comfortably afford. It's bloody hard to get a good sound out of a fiddle when you start off and almost impossible from a cheap one. It can be really discouraging if you are listening to Kevin Burke or John Sheahan and hear their rich tone when all you get are tuneful screeches. Secondly, the thing that staved off divorce for a year or two for me was the discovery of wooden clothes pegs. Clip one firmly on your bridge and you can practice all night with very little volume but still sound reasonable enough to practice your tone. I still carry a peg in my case for sessions for those times when I'm backing a quiet singer and want to play dramatically without drowning the singer. After that it's up to you but take heart! Once you get past the first 25 years or so it gets a bit easier.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:24 AM

The fiddle is like nothing else I have ever tried to play. I reckon the bowing technique is the hardest thing to get right. I am currently trying to learn from watching other people, then practising on my own. It is SO hard to get only one string to sound on its own! Any tips would be much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Morticia
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:35 AM

Oh, don't sell our Edgar no more violins
That dear little laddie of mine
For though he's but eight
We'd prefer him to wait
Or I doubt if he'll live to see nine!
Pam Ayres

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:13 AM

Well, so far I play guitar, piano, bass, and percussion. My fiancee played violin years ago, and I wanted to get her one for Christmas. So, I will eventually add this to my arsenal of instruments. I've always wanted to play it! I know that it will be yet another instrument that we will share...

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:28 PM

chris - make sure you let her choose her own fiddle - it's a very personal thing!

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:33 PM

She's seen it, Fibula... Talked about how much she would love it.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Maija
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:27 PM

The youngest son (he's 9) in the house wants to learn the fiddle, and so do I - so maybe we should have a go at it together... OR I could learn another instrument so that we could play together. But I do pity the neighbours if they have to live with both a fiddle- and a bagpipe-learner in the same house! :o

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:16 AM

I'm a violin/fiddle teacher and a number of my students are adult beginners. They all love it and are so glad they're doing it. Get as good a fiddle and bow as you can afford. Most people don't realize how important the bow is. I go with my beginning students to get fitted for a violin. The shoulder rest and chin rest are very important. They need to fit your body so you can hold the violin correctly and comfortably so it will sound good. A lot of places will let you rent with an option to buy. If possible, go to a violin store, not a general music store. It won't cost any more, but you'll get a better fiddle and advice from professional violinists. Don't believe the people who tell you that you will sound like hell for a long time. The secret of getting a pleasant sound out of a fiddle is using the bow correctly. On the first lesson, I show the student how to hold the violin and bow and how to draw the bow smoothly across the strings to make a pretty sound. They're generally pretty excited about that and go home happy and practice drawing the bow across the four strings individually. I'll add that, with a good teacher, you will be able to play each string individually, and probably a scale, in a week or two and you'll sound good. You really should get a teacher! Playing the violin is very physical and you need a personal trainer. If you wait until later to get a teacher, you'll have a lot of bad habits to unlearn.

Go for it! Have fun! PM me if you want to talk some more.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:10 AM

tHANKS A LOT pAULINE, i JUST MIGHT.......

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:04 AM

First, it's essential that you get the fiddle in tune. Buy a good electronic tuner. Then get some lessons - it will save a lot of time and frustrations in the long run. I also go with the option of not buying cheap and nasty - you will get discouraged.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: claireoc
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:48 AM

I wanted to play the violin (or vile din as my boyfriend's mother calls it) when I was young, but my parents couldn't afford one. Then the school told everyone that if they didn't learn when they were 10 or 11 their fingers wouldn't develop in the right way to play, so you couldn't start lessons insecondary school. Therefore I never took it up. I carried that myth around with me for years, and having now been told that it's not true i've got a violin. I'm completely rubbish but its great fun and having played the cello first makes it easier.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Maija
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM

@Pauline: So how much are we looking at, then...? It is sadly an issue of money if I can do this or not. Maybe I should really consider the pennywhistle instead...

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: s&r
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:39 AM

My experience with fiddles is that strings make a huge difference - moving from guitar to fiddel I expected to pay about the same for fiddle strings as for guitar strings, but ususally spend four or five times as much. My favourite fiddle is a handmade instrument by Kershaw Barret that I bought for twenty five pouns at an auction. My first fiddle was a pound at a junk shop - still playable and doesn't sound bad with Daminant strings.

Stu

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Jess A
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:18 AM

I just started this thread re: fiddle forum site that I've just come across, but thought I'd stick a link here too in case any body is interested...

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:08 AM

If you're thinking of taking up the violin, I recommend you take it up at least 15 floors. This will assure it's demise. Be sure to add a little "fling" to your toss for added insurance and be careful to look for pedestrians. Best of luck!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:23 AM

Go ahead with your plans to play fiddle, but be advised that it is a gateway instrument. If you're not careful, you'll soon find your house cluttered with not only a number of fiddles, but banjos, guitars, basses, and other money and space user-uppers. Have fun. I was able to play a recognizable fiddle tune on day two after first starting, lo those 31 years ago. Just go for it. I think the idea of getting some bowing lessons right at the get-go is probably wise. The bowing is the thing. Be more concerned about getting a good bow than a good fiddle. Even a crummy fiddle set up well will sound OK, especially if you put steel Prim strings on it. And, Prims are cheap. Al

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:52 AM

I teach my students to tune by ear, not by eye (electronic tuner). It's not that hard and it's good ear training. If you can't hear whether a note's in tune, you can't play the violin. I'm always amused at people who tune by eye and wonder what they hear when they play.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:38 AM

Tuning by ear is the best way to learn, however I can understand how frustrating it must be for begginers to be trying to get the instrument in tune before they have learned the skill..........it makes practice a very unrewarding thing to do if you cant get the thing in tune in the first place, so electronic tuners have their place I believe.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: cobber
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

I agree with Pauline that even though I now use a tuner, when you first start playing, you have to actually make the note so you get a lot of practice by learning to tune. Apart from that, if you want to play fiddle rather than violin, it's the bad habits that violinist's avoid that make fiddle playing so easy. Even so, it's better to learn to play "properly" before you start fiddling. Some of the best fiddlers, like John Sheahan from the Dubliners, were classically trained. A good violinist can learn to fiddle but I'm not so sure it works the other way round - bit like learning to handle a car before you start doing donuts in the street.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:34 AM

Re: Steel Strings.

My brother put steel strings on my dad's violin (pretty reasonable quality, now about 100 years old) when he started taking lessons. They pulled the fingerboard out of shape. I got a good maker to fix it - this violin should only have been strung the way dad always strung it from when his teacher set it up - with a mix of gut, wound silk and a steel top E - he returned it to the correct setup when he asked how my dad had set it up - he really knew immediately how it should have been set up - he just wanted to see if I knew. Apparently dad's original bow is almost worth as much as the instrument - it is very thin and very very light compared with 'cheap bows' - he swapped 3 'newish' bows to rehair and give to other students in return for not charging me to restring and remove a very slight warp from the old bow and told me never to give it away, unless I gave it to hem.... :-)


Steel strings that are not correct tension for your instrument (especially cheap ones) will rip the guts out of it.

Robin

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:28 PM

Re tuning by ear: You'd be surprised at how quickly students learn to do it. Usually, they learn how to tune the strings more quickly than they learn where to put their fingers so they can play the notes in tune. I don't understand why people feel so intimidated by tuning by ear. If you play an instrument with frets, you can be tone deaf. If you play violin or fiddle, you need to be able to hear. Another thing that I don't understand is this: If guitarists can't tune by ear, what can they hear while listening to or playing music? I cringe when someone sings or plays out of tune. Do other people notice the difference? Do other people think it's important?

One of my friends invented a way to tune a stringed instrument if you're tone deaf. You play a recording of the note, played at the correct pitch, loudly. You fold up a small piece of paper and place it over the string. When the string is in tune, the paper will flutter because of sympathetic vibrations. Actually, this method was described and analyzed in detail by the great nineteenth century physicist Helmholtz. He put a bit of flour on a small spot on a violin string and watched the string vibrate by candle light in a darkened room. He deduced all kinds of things and documented them mathematically. Of course, this method has a shortcoming relative to electronic tuners. If the string is out of tune, it doesn't tell you whether the string is too high or too low, or whether it's a little bit out of tune or way out of tune. Being able to hear pitch is a very useful skill for any musician. I recommend that everyone who plays an instrument try it, just to improve their musicianship.

Re strings: There are dozens of kinds available for violins. For beginners, a Helicor is a good type. I use Pirastro Tonica or Dominant strings because they behave relatively well when there are large changes in temperature or humidity, which is a big factor where I live (near Wash. DC). Be aware, however, of price gouging. The most you should pay for a good string is about $6. I recommend a set of spares because beginners often break a string by tightening it too much. If you want a good, reliable, fairly priced source for violin strings, rosin, and other paraphernalia, I recommend Southwest Strings or Potter's Violins.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:25 PM

Chris, PM me....

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

"Being able to hear pitch is a very useful skill for any musician."


ROFL (what an understatement!)

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 12:12 AM

Chris,

Lots of good advice, but something missing.

The first thing to do is to listen. A lot. A whole lot. And then listen some more.

Decide where you want to go before taking the first step. Who do you want to sound like? Who inspired you to think seriously about playing the instrument.

People who give you advice about "the instrument" tend to fall into two camps.

People who have classical training and play violin tend to take a "one size fits all" approach. Find a violin teacher (professionally trained) and learn the right way to do things. Once you have acquired certain general skills you can apply them to particular genres.

People who play fiddle tend to be a bit more anarchistic. Find the person who makes the sounds you want to hear and do what they do, whatever that is. There's a bit of a tendency to view classical training as something to be overcome rather than pursued.

My experience with FIDDLERS is that every possible approach works for some and doesn't work for others.

I've played with fiddlers in their 90s who do everything wrong (as far as classical violin playing is concerned), have done everything wrong for decades, have suffered no physical, moral, or spiritual damage as a result and sound great.

I've played with fiddlers who have had classical training who do everything right (as far as classical violin playing is concerned) and who leave me comatose.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: LilyFestre
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 12:17 AM

So...you've been thinking about taking up the violin.....what's holding you back? I love mine....for many reasons!   

Michelle

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:05 PM

Re that old bugaboo, classical (violin) vs (fiddle) training: First, I teach both. For a beginner, the first few steps are the same anyway. I don't think I've ever heard a classically trained musician play anything without soul or spirit. However, I've heard many folk fiddlers who sound absolutely dead cold. Many of them think that all there is to playing folk music is learning the tunes. The result is total boredom. It's like some of the midi tunes played on websites to help you if you can or can't read sheet music. It's strictly mechanical and I can't stand it. I've got to turn the audio off. To put feeling into your fiddle playing, you have to be sensitive to the feeling of the music and have some idea of how to communicate the feeling with your body and instrument. Technique! That's the answer and you don't have to go to Julliard to learn it. There are some maneuvers that you can do with the bow that will make even a simple melody sound very different, artistically.

Recently, while I was teazching a beginner, I tried to play the simple tune he was working on and plat it exactly as written. It sounded mechanical and I couldn't stand it. I stopped, said, "I've got to play it my way," and did. When I finished, the student's father applauded. Since then, I teach some musicianship, some way of expressing feeling, right from the start, even to people who want to play folk fiddle.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:03 PM

Something still missing fromthe conversation.

You are getting a lot of excellent advice from people about what works/has worked for them.

I won't claim to have any knowledge of "folk" fiddlers. I consciously avoided the term in my first post.

Old time (probably a subset of Folk) fiddling in the US is about diversity. New England fiddlers don't sound like Appalachian fiddlers who don't sound like Texas fiddlers etc.

But it is more complicated than that. Pike County KY fiddlers don't sound like Boyd County KY fiddlers. Braxton County WV fiddlers don't sound like Kanawha County WV fiddlers. Sherman Hammons didn't sound like his brother Burl Hammons.

That diversity is one of the wonderful things about old time fiddling.

Unless some old time weirdo like me tells you about it you'll never learn about that diversity. Unless you do some listening you'll never hear what I'm talking about.

My reference to classically trained fiddlers wasn't about soul or spirit, it was about a generic sound as opposed to a sound that is an expression of a particular person or community or region.

Neither the violin nor the fiddling community have a monopoly on bad playing. But each community has a profoundly different aesthetic.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Whistler
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 08:08 PM

At age 56 I picked up a whistle and learned to play it. After a year of practice I mastered it sufficiently to play 'out' and within 2 years was playing semi-professionally and still am.

Now, at age 62, I have bought myself a fiddle with bow and a tutor book with CD and have spent, so far, one week trying to master the rudiments of playing. It will take much longer than a year to play 'out' but the pleasure of making a musical sound and improving, just and little, each time you pick up the fiddle, makes life wonderfully fulfilling. Music nourishes the soul and gives one a feeling of wellbeing like nothing else.

As soon a the local fiddle classes start next year, I'll be there learning properly from a teacher.

So, play on, ChrisNightbird

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 08:08 AM

Russ and Whistler have hit the nail on the head, if you want to be a 'folk fiddler' & not a 'Classical Violinist'. Of course, I have heard similar statements made about various classical violinists...

:-)

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:16 PM

Russ, you made a good point about geographical diversity in fiddle playing. In Ireland, there are variations in fiddling style from one county to another. Thanks for your clarification of what you meant about classical violinists, i.e., they don't necessarily lack spirit or soul. I still disagree on just one point. Classical violinists, especially the great virtuosos, often have distinctly personal styles. As you said, you've just got to do a lot of listening to learn.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM

Pauline,

Thanks for the kind response.

It actually makes sense to me that classical violinists would have distinctly personal styles.

But when I see all those bows in the violin section moving in exactly the same, my guess is that the development of a distinctly personal style is not exactly encouraged:)

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:45 PM

In a 'Classical Orchestra' - or many other styles based on these principles - that is saved for the soloists - the 'ensemble' do what they are paid to do - create a predictable controlled sound. Just like in Theatre, so the chorus line and the feature dancers.

I have often mused whether this is in fact the basis of the alleged dislike of both 'schools' of musos for each other!

Indeed from the 'classical' viewpoint, the 'fiddler' is seen as undisciplined and uncontrollable by the 'violinist' and in the reverse direction, the predictable stability of the sound is seen as 'stale'.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM

Foolestroup,

Well put.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: GUEST,angelface
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

I can't get my violin to make a single sound. (I am a beginner)

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:39 PM

Guest, Angelface, try putting rosin on your bow -- a lot of rosin.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 05:48 AM

Too much rosin on the bow will also affect the sound and might even make no sound at all..

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: s&r
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 05:57 AM

Pauline's probably hit the nail on the head. If the bow's new, it can take a while to work the rosin into the hairs. I use powdered rosin and rub it in when I use a new bow - any surplus can be wiped off with a cloth.

Robin's right when he says too much rosin will affect the sound. Rosining the bow seems to be a black art that no-one ever explains.

Solo violinists playing with an orchestra will impose their own style on the piece being played, and add ornaments and vibrato where appropriate. The string section aren't playing their own interpretation, they're playing the conductor's.

Stu

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:55 PM

You can tell if you've used an excess of rosin. After you've played for a while, some of the rosin comes off on the strings and maybe the fingerboard. It's not a serious problem. Just wipe it off with a clean cloth. Getting no sound, especially with a new bow, is much more likely to mean that your bow needs to be rosined.

Subject: RE: Been thinking of taking up the violin...
From: Pauline L
Date: 26 Dec 04 - 11:20 PM

Refresh and merry Xmas.