Songs that offend you

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:52 PM

Oh! how sheltered we are out here on the Western Plains. I've never heard "The Cat Carol"! Thank you so much Metchosin. It's far more horrible than anything I've ever heard, I think. And were talking nearly 60 years here!
Rather like a Furry Friends version of "Mary of the Wild Moor"
(a lovely song and one of my favourites, I hasten to add!)
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM

It's a classic in a way, isn't it? Right down there with "Daddy Don't Get Drunk This Christmas" and the works of The Great McGonagall!

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:32 PM

*peeking back into the thread....discovering "The Cat Carol"


SHUDDER ....that is possibly the most saccharine, silly, disgusting piece of trite fluff I have ever seen! I will SING "Put My Little Shoes Away", but I would not stay in the room for 3 verses of "The Cat Carol"

wonderful example, Metchosin

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM

songs about sex and drinking and dancing offend me.....

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:39 PM

I like "There Were Roses", Wusie as sentimental propart but the terribly nasal tone I've heard it sung with is hard to bear.

I don't know who performed it as I have it on a bootleg CD of the 20th anniversary Green Linnet collection given to me by a friend.

CB

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:59 AM

I first heard and sang "Lord of the Dance" back in the 1970s. I never then, and do not now, think that it was ever intended to be or was anti-Semitic (or more strictly, anti-Jewish). To be honest, until I read this thread the thought had never even entered my mind.

Of course, I never heard "the Jews killed Jesus" until I was in college. I -- and those I grew up with -- simply figured the crucifixion was some sort of mob violence, not an indictment of an entire religious group.

But I grew up in a sheltered environment....

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: mkebenn
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:33 AM

Midchuck, yea, from my point of view he was young also. Mike

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:20 AM

I was brought up a Quaker, a member of the Society of Friends, even attended a Quaker boarding school for a while. To be honest I suppose that is where my love of folk music comes from. Folk music then as now was middle class stuff for the main part, sadly.

However the accusation of The Lord of the Dance to be anti-semitic song. It really does bring back to me the Quaker beliefs that you should suffer every fool gladly - indeed, not even regard someone who is patently a complete idiot as such. It was so stultifying and uncreative not to make a statement and feel constrained by a respect for belief that the other party certainly does not have for you.

The twit who came up with this nonsense has never in his life created someothing as exquisite as Lord of the Dance. Otherwise he would know how many failed songs are written before once or twice in the life of an artist, a masterpiece is created.


The Lord of the Dance is a marvellous creation, and I have seen it give relief and comfort to the bereaved, and as a teacher I saw children from tough backgrounds have their spirits raised by this song. The suggestion that Carter himself was in any way anti semitic is utterly disgraceful.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM

And if anyone would sooner sing the line from the Lord of the Dance

"The Men of God, they said it was a shame"

to avoid any possible misunderstanding, I doubt very much if Sydney Carter would have had any objection. He didn't regard his words as final and sacrosanct - in reference to this very song he wrote "Sometimes for a change I sing the whole song in the present tense 'I dance in the orning when the wolrd is begun...' It's worth a try."

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

I rather think that by 1996 Sydney Carter might have been unable to deal with this, because of advancing Altzheimers. If he was able to respond to the question, it would be interesting to see how he explained his preference for retaining the words he had settled on. He was always changing the words of his songs when he thought a change was appropriate. (And he was happy when other people did the same - he saw the "folk process", and the way that songs changed as they moved through the world and through time as extremely important.)

I doubt very much if there are many people who have ever understood the song in that kind of way. It would be interesting to see if Lionel Blue had any comment on that notion in his introduction to Sydney Carter's collected songs and poems - in a BBC talk once Rabbi Blue said that that, every morning when he awakes, he sings Sydney Carter's song "Keep Me Travelling Along With You"

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Wusie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Am I alone in loving Roses? As sung by Sean Keane, that is. Also, I have a good friend here in Oz who was an RUC fella before he came out to God's Own country. My Dublin husband sings along with his Orange songs, and Joe sings Rebel songs with gusto. They are best mates, and in THIS country, no-one needs to be worried if a song , with good music and good lyrics, has had a chequered path, or origin. How many Northern Irish Protestants sing Danny Boy with their heart, including the line...."and you will kneel and say an Ave there for me"....Joe nearly weeps when he sings that song.
Personally, I can't stand Two Little Boys.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:20 AM

Yup, I'm starting to dread Christmas already, they will play it again and again on the CBC to keep the Canadian content up. I think I'll go puke up a fur ball now and get it over with.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:01 AM

Bluesmike:
I think everyone here would agree with you. This is not a discussion about censorship, which I have seen no one propose here. It is a discussion about which songs cause us offence. I simply asked people to describe what offended them and try to explain why. It has been interesting reading so far.
Metchosin:
Thank-you very much. I laughed out loud when I read that. It's hilarious, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Bluesmike
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:44 AM

What offends me is intolerance. Even disgraceful songs like Move them Niggers North. Or David Allan Coe's song about his wife run off with a nigger have relevance. Folk songs are about how real people feel in real time and in 100 years these songs will present to anthropologists very real sentiments about a particular segment of society. In these frightening days of global truth as presented by Bush and his global crusaders the idea of even beginning a discussion on censorship and things that 'offend' has really scary implications.
It is up to you all to choose what offends and to turn it off not to set an arbitrary standard . If you are real your own truth is the only thing which has any relevence.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:33 AM

McGrath of Harlow wrote, "It seems pretty likely that Sydney Carter would never have come up against the suggestion that Lord of the Dance was anti-semitic, so as to have any reason to specifically refute it...."

This is flatly contradicted at one of the links I posted earlier, where it says,

"In 1996 the General Conference Hymnal Oversight Committee of the Society of Friends decided to include the "Lord of the Dance" in its newly revised hymnal. The decision did not go unnoticed; it caused a remarkable debate in the pages of The Friends Journal. One anguished Quaker wrote a letter decrying the song as "anti-Semitic" and concluding that "[i]t is a sacrilege that 'The Lord of the Dance' has been included in Songs of the Spirit and other Quaker song books. It will be a continuing disgrace and a sin for the Religious Society of Friends to continue to disseminate this song."(6) Whatever might be said about reading anti-Semitic lyrics silently to one's self, the protester recognized that the Society of Friends took on additional responsibilities when they authorized public performances as part of their canon of officially approved materials.

"The Hymnal Oversight Committee understood that the song might be controversial. They had contacted the author, Sydney Carter, and "engaged in discussions with [him] about his song," but Mr. Carter refused to alter the words."

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:54 AM

The Cat Carol definitely offends my sensibilities.

                  The Cat Carol

                  The cat wanted in to the warm warm house,
                  but no one would let the cat in
                  It was cold outside on Christmas Eve,
                  She meowed and meowed by the door.

                  The cat was not let in the warm warm house,
                  And her tiny cries were ignored.
                  'twas a blizzard now, the worst of the year,
                  There was no place for her to hide.

                  Just then a poor little mouse crept by,
                  He had lost his way in the snow.
                  He was on his last legs and was almost froze,
                  The cat lifted him with her paw.

                  She said "Poor mouse do not be afraid,
                  because this is Christmas Eve.
                  "On this freezing night we both need a friend,
                  "I won't hurt you - stay by my side."

                  She dug a small hole in an icy drift,
                  This is where they would spent the night.
                  She curled herself 'round her helpless friend,
                  Protecting him from the cold.

                  Oooooo

                  When Santa came by near the end of the night,
                  the reindeer started to cry.
                  They found the cat lying there in the snow,
                  and they could see that she had died.

                  They lifted her up from the frozen ground,
                  and placed her into the sleigh.
                  It was then they saw the little mouse wrapped up,
                  she had kept him warm in her fur.

                  "Oh thank you Santa for finding us!
                  "Dear cat wake up we are saved!"
                  ..."I'm sorry mouse but your friend has died,
                  there's nothing more we can do.

                  "On Christmas Eve she gave you her life,
                  the greatest gift of them all."
                  Santa lifted her up into the night sky,
                  and laid her to rest among the stars.

                  "Dear mouse don't cry you are not alone,
                  you will see your friend every year.
                  "Each Christmas a Cat Constellation will shine,
                  to remind us that her love's still here."

                  Oooooooo

Sadly, I do not think it was intentionally written as a parody.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:42 AM

What I said before.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:08 PM

Heaven forbid I speak ill of Townes Van Zandt but I've always been irritated by the end of "Tecumseh Valley" where she "turned to whoring/out on the streets/with all the lust inside her". There isn't anything at all lustful about the rest of the song--the whole story is that she's a poor, uneducated girl trying to make ends meet. My friend always replaces it with "she turned to whoring/out on the streets/in all her desperation/and many a man returned again/for empty consolation".

One assumes that your friend consulted with Townes prior to his death and obtained permission to change the words to his song, since if he didn't, he's doing something at least mildly illegal, unethical, and to be condemmed by all right-thinking people. And why is lust in a woman so evil? Are only men allowed lust?

And there's a whole raft of nineteenth century pop songs that are good tunes but much better off without words ("Rose of Alabama", "Kingdom Coming" ["Year of Jubilo"], "Old Zip Coon", etc.).

True enough in general, but did you ever really listen to "Kingdom Coming," beyond the fake dialect and the constant references to "Darkies" (which is simply the language of the time)? It's a celebration of the end of slavery and the slaves getting some of their own back. Not a put-down. What's wrong with that?

Peter.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:03 PM

Try "Kevin Barry" in my brother Ted's rendition and see what it gets you:

"...just a lad of eighteen summers
Yet no true man can deny
As he walked...to...death that...morning...SOB! SOB! (sounds of crying)
I...I'm sorry...I can't go on...."

or "The rising of the moon"

"...By the risin' of the moon YEE HA! (knee slap)
By the risin' of the moon
Fer the pikes must be tagether
By the risin' of the moon YEE HA! (knee slap)

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM

Here's a quote that rather implies what I said back there:

"I cannot remember the name of the rabbi who declared that at the Final Judgement every man will have to account for all the things he could rightly bav enjoyed but didn't. Jesus, I believe, would have approved of this. In the New Testament, the Pharisees are the 'good' men who have turned their back to joy; unlike the publicans and sinners. These may not find the joy they seek in what they do; yet though 'bad', they are facing in the right direction. No wonder Jesus found them more attractive." (Sydney Carter, "Dance in the Dark", Chapter 18.)

It seems pretty likely that Sydney Carter would never have come up against the suggestion that Lord of the Dance was anti-semitic, so as to have any reason to specifically refute it - the criticism he came up against sometimes was that it was anti-Christian, and he accepted that, for some versions of Christianity, that was true enough.

Still, since it's too late for Sydney to refute this, perhaps his great friend Rabbi Lionel Blue, who wrote an introduction to a collection of his songs and poems might do it some time.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Scoville on borrowed PC
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:19 PM

I've always hated the line "as for me my little brain/isn't very bright/choose for me, O, Santa Claus/what you think is right".

Heaven forbid I speak ill of Townes Van Zandt but I've always been irritated by the end of "Tecumseh Valley" where she "turned to whoring/out on the streets/with all the lust inside her". There isn't anything at all lustful about the rest of the song--the whole story is that she's a poor, uneducated girl trying to make ends meet. My friend always replaces it with "she turned to whoring/out on the streets/in all her desperation/and many a man returned again/for empty consolation".

And there's a whole raft of nineteenth century pop songs that are good tunes but much better off without words ("Rose of Alabama", "Kingdom Coming" ["Year of Jubilo"], "Old Zip Coon", etc.).

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:08 PM

The suggestion there is that people lose their jobs because they have refused to "learn or change", and that this is what unions are about.   

And in my experience, those are such gross over simplifications that they are lies. Imagine a song about a battered or deserted wife in which she says it's all her fault, because she didn't learn to pretty herself up for her hsuband and cook him different kinds of food. And she shouldn't have listened to those feminist friends of hers. That'd be the equivalent of those lines.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:04 PM

McGrath of Harlow wrote, "I can't put my hand on a quote that brings it out, but Sydney Carter often enough indicated that "the holy people" meant the kind of people who think they own God, in any religion."

If you do find a quote that brings it out, I'd like to see it. Meanwhile, I have found that I'm not the only person ever to be upset by the song. Here are a couple of places where the topic comes up.

www.neym.org/PrejudiceAndPoverty/Issue3.summer99.pdf

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/jbalkin/articles/london21.htm

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:44 PM

Leadfingers, I believe Jane Bower wrote that line as"And here Davy Crockett stood smiling and laughin', gallantry fierce in his eye" and I think Donovan played with it abit. Mike

Just googled and checked his life span, and I was right. Born 1786, died 1836. So he was 50 when he was at the Alamo.

So what's the problem? He was young. From my viewpoint.

Peter

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:26 PM

Jeez Richard,

You read a lot more into that than I do. All I ever read into this was ultimately the individual is rsponsible for his or her success or failure.

Don

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From:
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 07:27 PM

Leadfingers, I believe Jane Bower wrote that line as"And here Davy Crockett stood smiling and laughin', gallantry fierce in his eye" and I think Donovan played with it abit. Mike

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:26 PM

Don most of the song is OK. But the two lines cited are simply capitalist propaganda - or class warfare if you like - without the wit of, say "Workers' Beer". They are as wilfully offensive as KKK propaganda about the threats negros pose to white virgins or Hitlerite songs about Jews with astrakhan collars. An offensive stereotype.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Weasel Books
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:07 PM

Anti-Thatcher? Maybe Maggie's Farm?

Being a native Hebrew speaker and I just checked the King James translation of those verses, it's accurate.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:41 PM

Todd Rundgren's "Honest Work"

A very ppowerful song. I happen to agree with much of this sentiment. I don't find it offensive in the least and would sing it right along with "The Prince of Darkness"

Don

Honest Work



I'm not afraid to bend my back
I'm not afraid of dirt
But how I fear the things I do
For lack of honest work
My family is lost to me
They could not bear the hurt
To see the state their boy is in
For lack of honest work

I hold no blame for anyone
'twas I who did arrange
To pay my union dues so i'd
Not have to learn or change
And when I was replaced, 'twas i
Who started down the hill
And drank away my savings 'til
I couldn't stop myself

The prophets of a brave new world
Captains of industry
Have visions grand and great designs
But none have room for me
They see a world where everyone
Is rich and smart and young
But if I live to see such things
Too late for me they come

I know I'm not the only one
To fall beneath the wheel
Such company can not assuage
The loneliness I feel
So many are resigned to be
Society's debris
But I will be remembered for
The life life took from me

For I'm not afraid to bend my back
I'm not afraid of dirt
But how I fear the things I do
For lack of honest work

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:27 PM

I think the title is "honest work" - includes a line about a man paying union dues so that he would not have to work nor change.

My mate Simon sings it to wind me up (he's a nice guy for a fairly extreme right winger), so I usually respond with something anti-Thatcher, but I really must learn the Red Flag properly. Or maybe the Miner's Lifeguard would do.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:23 PM

You could get beaten up for singing "I'm for ever blowing bubbles" in the wrong place and time.

Something that might be exciting in some places - sing Kevin Barry to the tune of The Sash, or the other way round.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:39 PM

Like I said : Context and intention

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM

Fields of Athenry: that a few years ago, outside a Celtic/Rangers match a young male fan was murdered following a confrontation in which he was reported to be singing the song aggressively into the face of the his hated rival.

Anything with a tribal element to it can be used tribally. As Einstein said, "Only two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe."

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:09 PM

How about "I'm a Good Old Rebel"? Supposedly it's satirical, but how do we really know what they mean when they sing it?

The Easter Rising rewrite of "Erin Go Bragh" gloats rather much over blowing people away.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:46 AM

The lyrics of Come out you black and tans - now they are satirical - that sort of pissed up republican bellicosity that Joyce was talking about in the cyclops bit of Ulysses.

I don't think anybody seriously doubts the bravery of men - many of them Irish (like my Grandad) who fought in Africa or Flanders.

I notice that Kenneth Branagh (another Irishman) used Ronnie Drews exquisite reading of the song when he did the O'Casey play Shadow of a Gunman for the telly a while back. Bronagh Gallagher from The Commitments was in te programme too.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Interesting point about Randy Newman. I am always amazed at how many people miss the point of, "You Can Leave Your Hat On". Newman is clearly taking the narrator apart, yet people still see it as a sexy song. You always run that risk with satire.
I am surprised that so few people took offence at the Stones "Under My Thumb" and other songs of that era. I like them, as it happens, but it is not hard to imagine a woman being annoyed by lines like:
"It's down to me - the way she talks when she's spoken to
It's down to me - the change has come
She's under my thumb..."
Maybe the Stones were being satirical, but I haven't heard many people making that claim!

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM

Context and intention have a lot to do with how 'offensive' or 'inoffensive' you find a particular song. The Fields of Athenry sung at a rugby or football international is not intended to be offensive.

I don't like 'There be Roses' myself. A bit too sentimental in the telling for my tastes but most of us would agree with the message it is trying to get across.

I am surprised no one has mention Randy Newman, a troubling songwriter if ever there was one. Because he writes his songs from the point of view of the character, they can say things and express views that some people would find troubling. That of course is their aim. 'Rednecks' which uses the word nigger. 'Sail Away' which is about the slave trade . 'In Germany Before The War' which is about a child murderer. Not easy listening by any means

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:26 AM

I often sing 'I feel Pretty' from 'West Side Story', but my mirror says I'm singing a lie ;~)

Giok

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

great song I enjoy being a girl - often find myself singing it - brings out the drag queen in us all........

as piglet said its very hummy!

Another thing that always occurrs to me about the Irish centres where they say no rebel songs, none what ever! Theres always a poster with The Wolftones appearing next week!

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Grab
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:25 AM

Irish rebel songs are fine by me. I do take exception to "Come out you Black and Tans" though, which isn't a rebel song, it's just an incitement to violence.

The latest one to get me pissed off though was an anti-evolution song by a group of religious nuts in a local folk club, a song called "By Divine Design". Now I don't mind how much religion you've got, but we're in a pub, not a church. And it'd need to be a pretty specific church too, bcos most of the Christians I know are not inclined to the literal truth of the Bible in defiance of observed facts about the world.

On the plus side, that pissed me off enough that I'm writing a rebuff, starting with Copernicus and Galileo and working forwards. If you don't plan on joining them, beat them! ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:08 AM

How about "I enjoy being a girl" from "Flower Drum Song"?

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Puffenkinty
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:57 AM

While reading this thread, a ghastly
song popped into my head. It was from
the fifties (I'm up in years). It was from
a musical called "Silk Stockings" and this song,
"Without Love", was one of the big hits from the show.

Here goes:

"Without love, what is a woman?
A treasure unemployed,
Without love, what is a woman?
A zero in the void,
But with love, what is a woman?
Serene contentment, the perfect wife,
For a woman to a man is just a woman,
But a man to a woman is her life."

Aghhhh! Young girls believed this drivel
in the 50's. (A common question was,
"Are you going to college for your
BA or your MRS?".)

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:17 AM

I can't put my hand on a quote that brings it out, but Sydney Carter often enough indicated that "the holy people" meant the kind of people who think they own God, in any religion. The "Unco Guid" as Robert Burns called them.

Here is a quote from Sydney that demonstrates his radical ecumenism:

"I see Christ as the incarnation of that piper who is calling us...By Christ I mean not only Jesus; in other times and plaxces, other planets, there may be other Lords of the Dance. But Jesus is the one I know of first and best. I sing of the dancing pattern in the life and words of Jesus."

Which is an idea he extended in another song - Every Star Shall Sing A Carol

Who can tell what other cradle?
High above the Milky Way;
Still may rock the King of Heaven,
On another Christmas day.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:13 AM

The King James version of Deuteronomy? Could you give us an approximation of how many times the words had been edited, tidied up, clarified and translated between the original and the King James version? Just so we can assess its merits as an original text, you understand.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:01 PM

Several people have suggested that "The holy people" in Sydney Carter's Lord of the Dance is not a reference to the entirety of the Jewish people (of Jesus's time). E.g., one person wrote,

"The suggestion that "the holy people" means "the Jews" - presumably as some kind of improvised variation of "the chosen people" - is a strange one indeed. It definitely wouldn't have been what Sydney Carter had in mind. I doubt very much if it's been understood that way by many of those who sing it."

I'll agree with the last sentence, but disagree strongly with the first two. I think Sydney Carter knew his "Old Testament" better than most people do now. Exodus 19:6,
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
Deuteronomy 7:6, "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

It's no improvised variation of anything - it's right there in the King James version, and it refers to the Jewish people in its entirety, not just some officials or some faction. I'm quite convinced that when Sydney Carter used the phrase "the holy people" he was alluding to Deuteronomy.

So I'll maintain my position that the song perpetuates the myth that the Jewish people as a whole crucified Jesus - at least for those listeners familiar enough with the Bible to get the allusion. And I'll add that this myth has been the root cause of centuries of hideous persecutions of Jews. Sing the song if you must, but know what you're singing.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:44 PM

I stopped singing 'rebel' songs in 69 when the troubles restarted only
because there was a good chance someone in the audience could easily have a brother or husband or son being shot at by the 'rebels' I was singing about . And I know a lot of singers who did exactly the same !
Abnd indeed as WeeLittleDrummer said , a lot of the troops who served in Ireland really liked the Irish songs !

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Chris Green
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:14 PM

WLD - I agree with your post about rebel songs. I'm English (although technically Irish if you go back a generation or so!) and there's no denying that a lot of the rebel songs are achingly beautiful. For what it's worth, I posted a version of "The Foggy Dew" I wrote here as an attempt to update the rather outmoded sentiments of the original. Any comments/criticisms would be much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM

I don't find ALL Jesus parodies offensive, but some of the more disgusting ones are offensive. And having someone sing me more than one-- like an all-evening Jesus-joke and Jesus-song fest-- it's offensive in that it's cumulative. Would you visit an African-American's house and sing coon songs all evening... just because somehow, being with that person, you were suddenly aware that you knew a whole lot of those songs? It's tiresome. When everyone you run into can't wait to tell you the newest dumb-pastor or weird-Jesus joke they just heard-- it's a bit much to take smiling when you're wearing clericals or you are with someone who is.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:01 PM

I think maybe alanabit has a point.

context is everything. I wonder if friends of President McKinley were upset when all these string bands were going round doing jaunty little tunes like solid Gone and white House Blues.

Context is everything. Some of the Irish rebel songs are extraordinarily beautiful. Many of the classic recordings that we still listen to came from the 1960's when a shot in anger had not been fired for years.

During the 1970's when the shit had really hit the fan and there were bombs going off all over Ireland and England, and each side was engaged in murder - it wasn't something that fitted easily into English folk clubs. doubtless over in Ireland and in some communist clubs in England the rebel songs were still being sung, and indeed for the combatants gained fresh poignancy.

I am frequently amused by Irish/Americans gleeful assumption that the rebel songs will upset their English listeners. Perhaps a few thin skinned people will be upset about the hoary old tales of English misdeeds, but I have probably had more requests to play rebel songs from ex English soldiers, and soldiers in Irish regiments of the English army than any other quarter. the english soldiery really took to the rebel songs.

Many Irish centres spell it out. No rebel songs of any kind, when you walk through the door with your guitar.

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,munchie
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:41 PM

I'm offended by all new songs... I mean, everything has been sung about already except perhaps for your particular "girl" and who the heck cares anyway? There are simply too many songs, period, and to my mind, few things are worth singing about and those that are have been sung to death.

But seriously, I am offended by 2 things mainly in songs:

1. The line "I can't live without you" or the equivalent. Get real, you'll live fine without her when she cusses you out and walks out the door.

and

2. "love songs" that don't mention the name of the person, mostly referring to "you" as the subject. I mean, if I were to write a song about my girl, I'd at least mention her name in it. And lest someone point out that these songs can be shared by others, I think that is just cheap.

I like music with no words best. :-)