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Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan)

DigiTrad:
BALLAD OF RICHARD III
BLOOD UPON THE GRASS
OOR HAMLET
THE JEELIE PIECE SONG (SKYSCRAPER WEAN)
THE SCOTTISH SONG


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GUEST,robinia 09 Dec 04 - 05:18 AM
Scabby Douglas 09 Dec 04 - 06:36 AM
Scabby Douglas 09 Dec 04 - 06:48 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Dec 04 - 11:04 AM
Scabby Douglas 09 Dec 04 - 11:13 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Dec 04 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,robinia 09 Dec 04 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,robinia 09 Dec 04 - 04:48 PM
Scabby Douglas 09 Dec 04 - 07:36 PM
Dita 10 Dec 04 - 09:56 AM
Scabby Douglas 10 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM
Scabby Douglas 10 Dec 04 - 12:05 PM
Scabby Douglas 10 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM
Dita 10 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,robinia 10 Dec 04 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,robinia 10 Dec 04 - 07:11 PM
Susanne (skw) 02 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM
John MacKenzie 03 Jan 05 - 08:18 AM
Hillheader 03 Jan 05 - 08:38 AM
Scabby Douglas 04 Jan 05 - 04:37 AM
Susanne (skw) 04 Jan 05 - 05:25 PM
robinia 19 Jan 05 - 06:17 AM
robinia 19 Jan 05 - 07:22 AM
Scabby Douglas 19 Jan 05 - 08:21 AM
Susanne (skw) 19 Jan 05 - 06:28 PM
andymac 20 Jan 05 - 03:23 AM
GUEST,DaveA 19 Oct 07 - 03:56 PM
jacko@nz 19 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Guest 14 Jan 08 - 06:21 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: GUEST,robinia
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:18 AM

Can anyone fill me in on some of the words I can't quite catch from Adam Mcnaughtan's "Dear Green Place"? (That's what Glasgow's name means in the original Gallic.) To start with, in the chorus, there're the neighborhood and pub names that follow: "O the Glasgow I belong to, it's a dear green place; it's the capitol of culture, it's a sad disgrace; from Kelvinside to ...... "   A great song -- and I can't even finish the chorus!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:36 AM

It is a great song, but I don't have the words.

Even normally-reliable Professor Google is not as helpful as usual...

I'll keep on looking


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:48 AM

I think that chorus goes something like:

"O the Glasgow I belong to,
it's the Dear Green Place;
it's the Capital of Culture,
it's a dampt disgrace;
from Kelvinside to ?Giffnock?
Pan loaf, Plain Breid
It's the Tron, it's the Tramway,
and the (pause)....
Sarry Heid."

A friend of mine sings it, but that's all I can remember.

Notes:

dampt - a refined-ish way of saying "damned"
Capital of Culture - Glasgow was the European Cultural Capital in 1990 (I think)
Pan loaf / Plain breid - new, pretentious/ traditional, no-nonsense
Tron - theatre in converted former church
Tramway - huge performance space in former Tram depot
Sarry Heid - the Saracen Head - in Gallowgate - on of the oldest pubs in Glasgow


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:04 AM

As well as having become a synonym for posh or poor, there actually is two types of loaf here in Scotland called by those names. Plain bread is a 'batch loaf' and comes out the oven like a big bar of chocolate, it is then split into 'oblongs'. The resulting loaf has a thinnish dark curved top crust, and a flat thicker dark brown crust on the bottom, with no crust on the sides or end. A 'pan loaf' is what it says it is, being baked in a single loaf tin or 'pan' and has a golden crust all over, as it is baked singly it costs more, so can't be afforded by us poor folks. Both loaves are white BTW.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:13 AM

Yeah, thanks, Giok, I couldn't be bothered doing all the bakery information.

However - I would point out that while at one time "pan" bread would have been more expensive - hence the connotation of "poshness" - nowadays it's actually Plain bread that's dearer. This is probably down to economies of scale.

Or a global conspiracy.

Or something


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:13 PM

Plain bread makes the best toast.
Giok :~)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green pla
From: GUEST,robinia
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:40 PM

Thanks all -- now if you could just corner your friend for some of my verse incomprehensions, Scabby! It's usually just a single word, so I should write out what I do hear ... next posting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green pla
From: GUEST,robinia
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:48 PM

OK, I gave it another listen and here's what I come up with:

I was born in Denniston (?), Glasgow A(E?)-1
I made butter in the bowl, jumped the dykes, kicked the can;
at dodgie-ball I ducked, at white(?)*** I dived;
there was naebody there to tell you that your childhoood was deprived.

Oh the Glasgow I belong to, it's the dear green place;]
it's the capital of culture, it's a dammed disgrace;
it's Kelvinside and Calton [as in Calton weavers], pan loaf, plain breid,
It's the Tron, it's the Tramway and the [pause] Sarryheid.

For my uni education I went over tae the west'
**** to union dances ******
******   has a magic all its own *************
.............

I began my teaching in the northern housing scheme,
a neighborhood unit of the corporation's dream;
the plan was well intentioned but to say the least bizarre,
twenty thousand drinkers and no a single bar.....

I've been on the southside now two decades and a hoff,
you can tell the way I'm talking that I've became a toff;
this only goes to show how one lives and learns
********** ................

*** city merchants *********** Glasgow on the Clyde;
*****************
**************
I belong to Glasgow and I always will ..........

You can see that there're great gaps in my hearing comprehension (though no doubt the words will ring loud and clear, once I know what they are).   So please, Scabby, if you could corner your friend who sings this song......


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green pla
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:36 PM

I was born in Dennistoun,
Glasgow E-wan (old postal district)
I made butter in the boattle (shake creamy milk in a bottle to churn it ( I think) he probably says "Boa'l" - glottal stop)
jumped the dykes,(walls on back lanes)
kicked the can;
at dodgie-ball I ducked, at white(?)*** I dived; _ I think this is Whitehill (local Swimming Baths)
there was naebody there to tell you that your childhoood was deprived.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Dita
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:56 AM

Although I know Adam well, for my sins, I don't know this song. What's it recorded on? It is the most autobiographial song I've seen from Adam.

The verse about teaching in a housing scheme would, I guess, be about the time he taught at Garthamlock, near Easterhouse. These were new houses built in the sixties, on the NE outskirts of Glasgow, where folk who lived in tenements, in places like Duke Street, or the Gorbals were rehoused, in public owned homes which they rented.

Their old homes had a pub on every corner, shops on the ground level, and a community. The new houses had no pubs within walking distance, one central group of five or so shops for the whole scheme.

Houses, school, Church (one of each), thats your lot, TV has now been invented, what else do you need?

The nearest pubs were the Stepps Hotel or the Dalriada a bus ride away in the derection of town, or a car ride to the exotic delights of Gartcosh, an old village with real pubs.

John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Hi John

Having dood a quick check, it looks like it's on "Last Stand at Mount Florida" Greentrax CDTRAX120.

I haven't heard Adam singin it masel, but Roy Charles often sings it.
(And yes, Gentle Readers, I do mean Roy, not Ray).

I probably won't see Roy now until into the New Year, so I'm struggling a wee bit to fill in the gaps...

How you doing, anyway?

Haven't seen you in ages...


Steven


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:05 PM

I've been on the southside now two decades and a hoff,
you can tell the way I'm talking that I've became a toff;
this only goes to show how one lives and learns
********** ................

Unfortunately, I can only remember the final two words of this verse, which are:
"Newting Mearns" - which is an exaggerated mock-polite way of saying "Newton Mearns", a well-heeled suburb south of Glasgow.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM

... and I forgot to say that "and a hoff" should be "and a hauf" - "hauf" = "half"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Dita
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

Hi Steve,

Talking about you last night when one of your songs was mooted as a candidate for the set list of a new venture.

As you say I've been lying low for the last year or so, health, life etc. getting in the way of music. However I've played the Iain MacIntosh tribute night in Strling and SwarbAid in Glasgow, in the last couple of weeks, and the voice has held up, so I may well be out and about in the next few months. I'll be looking out for you.

love, John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green pla
From: GUEST,robinia
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:51 PM


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green pla
From: GUEST,robinia
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:11 PM

Yes, it is on his "Last Stand on Mount Florida" (no idea where that title comes from), first song on a tape that also includes Cholesterol (song noles tell us that "Glasgow is recognized as the heart disease capital of the universe. Glasgow doesnae care"), The Green Belongs to Glasgow's Folk (typically poking fun at the city planners), Thomas Muir of Hunters Hill (commemorating another radical popular hero), The Scottish Song (which recaps Shakespeare, much as Adam did with Hamlet, Hamlet)......   Anyway, I'm wait for the rest of the words. McNaughtan's songs have a wonderfully irreverent spirit.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE DEAR GREEN PLACE (Adam McNaughtan)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM

Happy New Year everybody!
I've put the days off to good use by working out, on the basis of Robinia's and Steven's info, most of the lyrics of Adam's song. Maybe Steven and John can help with filling in the last blanks:

THE DEAR GREEN PLACE
(Adam McNaughtan)

Chorus:
The Glasgow I belong to is the dear green place
It's the Capital o' Culture, it's a damn disgrace
It's Kelvinside and Calton, pan loaf, plain breid
It's the Tron and the Tramway and the Sarry Heid

I was born in Dennistoun, Glasgow E1
I made butter in the boattle, jumped the dykes and kicked the can
At dodgie-ball I ducked, at Whitehill I dived
There was naeb'dy then tae tell you that your childhoood was deprived

For my uni education I went over tae the west
Walkin hame frae union dances is the bit that I mind best
Two o'clock in the morning has a magic all its own
Even in the Woodside Road and Dobbie's Loan

I began my teaching in the northern housing scheme
That neighbourhood unit of the corporation's dream
Their plans were well intentioned but tae say the least bizarre
Twenty thoosand drinkers and no a single bar

I've looked on the southside now two decades and a hauf
You can tell the way I'm talking that I've became a toff
It just only goes to show you how one lives and learns
You'd swear I'd been born in Claxton? or in Newting [Newton] Mearns

Workers' City, Merchant City, Glasgow on the Clyde
It's the workshop of the Empire, East End, Soothside
Frae Castlemilk tae Possil, Drum tae ?rovin Mill
I belong to Glasgow and I always will


The CD (yes, it's on 'Last Stand at Mount Florida') fortunately has extensive notes by Adam:

[1996:] Glasgow developed as a city of over a million inhabitants. The present population of 670,000 could do with a city two or three sizes smaller, which would need fewer buses, fewer schools and lower rates. It is confidently predicted that the city will be bankrupt within a decade, but you would never guess this from the rate at which we are opening art galleries. This epidemic of art is a minor trouble; we also have problems of unemployment, drugs and violence. [...] The chief function of my singing is to cheer myself up. [...] Drugs and violence you can read about in the papers.
In 1990 Glasgow became 'Cultural Capital of Europe'. As soon as it had been nominated for the title, an opposition group was set up to claim that this was simply a public relations exercise to benefit the bourgeois establishment. They saw the newly-created city centre residential area called 'The Merchant City' as the stronghold of the moneyed classes and so adopted the title 'Workers' City' for their group. I just enjoyed the confrontation. Confrontation is in Glasgow's nature.
'Dear Green Place' is the commonly accepted meaning of the Celtic place-name Glasgow. The chorus of the song opposes East End (Calton) to West (Kelvinside), and middle class theatres (the Tron and the Tramway) to a working class pub (the Saracen's Head). Pan loaf, as well as its obvious meaning of a loaf with crust all round, refers to posh pronunciation; to talk pan loaf is much the same as to talk with a bool in your mouth. The plain, or batch, loaf has a crust top and bottom.
The verses are reasonably accurate autobiography and range round the districts, which in pre-computer days were designated by a compass point and a number, as in Glasgow E1, which is more meaningful and memorable than G52. The reference to making butter was to a playground activity when you walked round shaking a medicine bottle half-full of milk until the milk curdled and solidified and was impossible to remove without breaking the bottle. My only regret about verse 2 is that I did not manage to work in the name of Bill Lambert's band, who were resident at the dances in the University Union throughout my student days. North Woodside Road and Dobbie's Loan form the route from West End to East. In verse 3, the 'neighbourhood unit' was the Corporation euphemism for housing estate. In a book issued to schools for use in Civics Lessons ('Glasgow Our City') it was applied to the then new Pollok scheme. The 4th verse picks up the linguistic confrontation hinted at in the chorus, echoes of which will be heard in several other songs. In older days when accent varied according to where you stayed rather than by class, one of the markers of the accent of the South Side was the retroveolar 'r', pronounced with the tip of the tongue turned back. 'The Drum' is an abbreviation of 'Drumchapel', the name of a housing scheme in the far west.
The most readable introduction to Glasgow is still 'The Second City' by Charles Oakley, the last edition of which was published in 1990. A mine of information is 'The Words and the Stones' by Carl MacDougall, (1990) though some readers may be irritated by the book's quirky arrangement. (Adam McNaughtan, notes 'Last Stand at Mount Florida')

And, Robinia, the CD title is a probably a play on words:
a) the contrariness that Adam is known to take pleasure in (see his comment on 'Cholesterol' as a small example), and

b) the demolition of the 'twin-towered stand' of Hampden Park football stadium up in Mount Florida, Glasgow (friends used to live just round the corner), which Adam, as a traditionalist and a football enthusiast, disapproved of. (See his song 'The Twin-Towered Stand' on the same CD.)

(Corrections below, please.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:18 AM

Suzanne, end of second last line in last verse is Provanmill, like Blackhill and Whitehill a Glasgow urban district.
Giok [Glasgow born]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Hillheader
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:38 AM

Suzanne

Well done for this.

Last line of second last verse could be Clarkston (posh district near to Newton Mearns).

Well done once more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green place
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:37 AM

I agree with Giok and Dave's comments above (Provanmill and Clarkston), and add my congratulations to Susanne for her transcription above.

Well done, Susanne!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Glasgow I belong to .. dear green pla
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:25 PM

I realised myself when I'd posted it should be Clarkston, and thanks too for Provanmill. Another song completed (but I didn't have the strength or time to do the whole CD!).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan
From: robinia
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:17 AM

Well I finally woke up to these post New Year's messages -- a belated thanks to all of you, especially Susanne for the full words and Adam's notes too! (They didn't come with the cassette.) Is he still running Adam's Books?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan
From: robinia
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 07:22 AM

Well I didn't wake up to these post-New-Year's messages till now, so a belated thanks! The full words and Adam's notes too (they not included with the tape I bought). Wow! By the way, is he still running Adam's Books?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan)
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 08:21 AM

No, Adam's Books has been closed a couple of years now...

Adam's still singing, though...


I'm glad we got there in the end with the lyrics...


Regards


Steven


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:28 PM

Robinia, you're welcome! As far as I know Adam is still selling books from home, and he once told me he had a website. Haven't been able to find it, though ...

Steven, I hope Glasgow hasn't been too much affected by the weather and St Andrews in the Square was not flooded on a Wednesday night (other than with singers, that is). All the best to you all!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan)
From: andymac
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:23 AM

I was about to add in the "Provanmill" part, but got beaten to it. I'd forgotten this song, which is odd since it really struck home with me when I first heard Adam do it, as I was brought up in Blackhill, next to Provanmill, studied at Glasgow Uni and often did the late walk home at night from the students' union discos, albeit a few years after Adam...
Great stuff and well done to Suzanne yet again, with the usual erudition from Steve and John.
John, Susan was saying you and Lorna can't make the end of the month, drop me a note and let me know when might be possible to meet up again..

Andy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan)
From: GUEST,DaveA
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:56 PM

"I've looked on the southside now two decades and a hauf"

Wouldn't that be "I've lived on the southside now two decades and a hauf"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan
From: jacko@nz
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

That's the one.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Dear Green Place (Adam McNaughtan
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:21 PM

My take on the lyrics having just listened to it on internet radio:
THE DEAR GREEN PLACE
(Adam McNaughtan)

Chorus:
The Glasgow I belong to is the dear green place
It's the Capital o' Culture, it's a damn disgrace
It's Kelvinside and Calton, pan loaf, plain breid
It's the Tron and the Tramway and the Sarry Heid

I was born in Dennistoun, Glasgow ee-wan [E1]
I made butter in the boattle, jumped the dykes and kicked the can
At dodgie-ball I ducked, at Whitevale* baths I dived
There was naeb'dy then tae tell you that your childhoood was deprived

For my uni education I went over tae the west
Walkin hame frae union dances is the bit that I mind best
Two o'clock in the morning has a magic all its own
Even in the Woodside Road and Dobbie's Loan

I began my teaching in the northern housing scheme
That neighbourhood unit of the corporation's dream
Their plans were well intentioned but tae say the least bizarre
Twenty thoosand drinkers and no a single bar

I've lived on the southside now two decades and a hauf
You can tell the way I'm talking that I've became a toff
It just only goes to show you how one lives and learns
You'd swear I'd been born in Clarksting [Clarkston] or in Newting [Newton] Mearns

Workers' City, Merchant City, Glasgow on the Clyde
It's the workshop of the Empire, East End, Soothside
Frae Castlemilk tae Possil, frae the Drum tae Pruvanmil [Provanmill]
I belong to Glasgow and I always will

*Dennistoun or "Duke Street" Public Baths and Swimming Pool was in Whitevale Street – the next street along from Whitehill Street.

Drum = Drumchapel of course


Regards,Norman


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