The Death of Recording Tape?

Subject: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

I'm concerned. This morning, on NPR, I heard part of a feature on the closing of what was said to be the last manufacturer of recording tape.
Does anyone know anything of this?

Does this mean that blank tape cassettes are soon to be a thing of the past? Or have I misunderstood what I heard?

The reason this concerns me so much is that I have an application in which I use a substantial number of 120 minute cassettes, which I record at half speed, automatic reversing, resulting in four-hour recording time. I then listen on a transcribing machine at that speed, but occasionally make use of a variable speed control for better intelligibility at certain spots.

If blank cassettes are no longer to be available, of course I'll be out whatever it costs to buy new equipment, presumably mini-CD. That's bad enough. But can I get four-hour or better continuous coverage, preferably in a reusable mini-CD medium? And can I get a foot-controlled playback machine for such disks? And if so, with a variable speedup ability?

So there's really at least two questions here:
1. Is this to be the end of tape cassettes?
2. Can I get equipment which serves my function?

Any insights on either or both of these questions will be much appreciated.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:55 AM

Here a link so you can listen to the story.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4259503

I've heard it yet - I don't have a sound card here at work - but I notice the headline says the last AMERICAN makers of audio tapes closed.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,tapekiller
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:43 AM

2. Can I get equipment which serves my function?

YES.. a reasonable priced laptop computer equipped with the largest and fastest hard drive you can afford, sufficient memory, and CD/[or even better]DVD burner, and appropriate software
will cover every recording requirement you list..
now and well into the future.

This is probably the most cost effective and future proof investment for your money

you can then burn your own Discs or output the recordings to any other medium you have available..

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:58 AM

Tapekiller:

Two problems, and one question about your suggestion:

Problem 1: Cost. A new laptop will cost a good deal more than my present very satisfactory tape recorder.
Problem 2: Size/weight. My tape recorder is more or less pocket size, highly transportable and inconspicuous. A laptop will be both an uncomfortable addition of weight to my other equipment and conspicuous. A mini-CD would be fire for size and weight, but my other questions about recording time, etc., still give me pause.

The question: How about foot control playback under your option?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM

I know that Sony makes a number of different digital dictation machines (including a couple that handle MD's, as you mentioned above), but I am not sure about the foot control--it seems like they would logically offer such a thing though--

I am currently looking at palm/pocket sized digital 4-track recorders(not exactly what you need, I know) and one thing that I have discovered is that the removable media are getting bigger by the day,which extends the recording time incredibly--some media formats are available in much larger capacities than others, though, so when you are considering different models, make note of the removable media format, and then check to see what is available.

Tapekiller--a laptop is a big, bulky, kluge compared to the digital dictation recorders, MD recorders, palm/pocket studios, etc that are now available--and they are considerably cheaper than a laptop--

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,tapekiller
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM

fair enough if size restrictions are deciding consideration..

i believe recent mini disc recorders provide extended record time option at cost of decreased sound quality..

Laptop should record continuously at high quality for considerable
time duration.. mobile recordings limited by battery power
[battery specs are a factor i forgot to mention]
and available hard disc space.

not sure about foot control option..
win some lose some I guess..

I do know that Laptop recording systems are now becoming
very practicable 1st choice option for latest generation
of digital audio recordists and increasingly many old-school tape fans
are converting to benefits of laptop based mobile project studios..

obviously it all depends on the purpose you need gear for,
amount of use it will get..
and how many more years you see yourself using it..

sadly, equipment and accesory manufacturering corporations take no prisoners
when phasing out old reliable much loved technologies
for shiny new sources income for their profiteering investors..

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:35 PM

If you must move to something else, a minidisc recorder might be the only game in town. The new Hi-MD disc format allows up to 45 hours recording time per disc. www.minidisco.com

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:34 PM

Minindisc was intended as the successor to cassette tape. The long play mode is still far better than most portable cassette recorders, certainly better than haf speed cassette.

And as Russ says, the new high density format gives far more time that any tape ever did.

As for battery life and size - the problem with most MD recorders now is I can't read the controls and display because they're too small, but that's more to do with me...

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM

"sadly, equipment and accesory manufacturering corporations take no prisoners when phasing out old reliable much loved technologies
for shiny new sources income for their profiteering investors.. "

I'm sure people were saying the same thing when iceboxes were phased out in favor of those new-fangled refrigerators.

"Old reliable" are not two words that I would use in the same sentence with "cassette tape". No one cried when 8 tracks disappeared because cassettes offered a huge improvement in many areas - portability, quality and cost. Today, mini discs are offering the same advantages. They will eventually be replaced by hard drive based recorders.

It is a shame to knock an investor just because they are making money from something people want. While they make a profit, they also take risks. Anyone own stocks of Betacam?

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

I'm sure people were saying the same thing when iceboxes were phased out in favor of those new-fangled refrigerators.

Sure, but the owner of an icebox wasn't forced to buy a refrigerator; they didn't stop making ice. True enough, when refrigerator ownership grew very common the ice wagon stopped coming around the neighborhood, but the ice user could see this coming long in advance, and his investment in his icebox was long since amortized.

Now someone is going to tell me that the same is true for tape recorders ((unless I head 'em off at the pass), so I'll just say that there's still an awful lot of tape recorder users around. What's more, the refrigerator gave better service and cheaper than the ice box. At least for my application, I am not sure that (say) mini-CD will give me better service, and I'm sure it's not cheaper than continued use of equipment I already own.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

Sorry Dave, but cassette recorders have outlived their usefullness in most applications.

Honestly, it is doubtful that cassette tapes will no longer be made, as you point out there are still many tape recorders available. However, be prepared to pay a premium for them. Remember when reel-to-reel tape recorders were the only game in town? They quickly vanished because cassettes offered significant advantages. You can still by reel-to-reel tape, but you will pay for it. (In more than just money!)

When the CD came into use, vinyl production stopped - not because the music industry saw a way to make big bucks (although many will claim that is the case), but mainly because the public realized the benefits of CD's. If you remember, there was a time when LP's and CD's sat side by side in record stores. LP's were cheaper, but people weren't buying them.   The same thing is happening with VHS tapes today.   

You can still buy turntables and stylus to keep the old players rolling. You will probably be able to buy cassettes (at higher prices). Eventually you will discover that devices do exist that meet your needs - and maybe will even make it easier for you.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:34 PM

I would suggest if you check where the tapes you use at present are made, that won't have been in the USA. I think it's going to be a long time before the people who currently make most of the cassette tapes people use stop producing them. After all, it may not feel like that if you live there, but the USA is just a pretty small part of the planet.

This is rather like the hoohah we had here coming up for Christmas about a big dealer in electronic goods in England announcing tey were not going to be sellimg any more Video Recorders once they'd sold the ones they had already. This was greeted by the media with articles about "the end of an era" and so forth, but all it meant was they are just going to be selling those units that contain both VHS recorders and DVD players, and not stand alone VHS units. Big deal.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From:
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM

Uncle_DaveO, I hate to agree, but cassettes have been harder and harder to f ind in the last 5 years. Most of the "no-name" brands are gone. Premium Sony stuff still seems available as well as other major brands, but no longer in some of the sizes like 120 minute or 30 minute categories. I've noticed that I can't get the T-200(10 hour) or T-30 video cassettes easily. Also blank CDs in the 100s are hard to find. Everything is gearing up to the blank DVD market.

However, onto your other question. I would recommend the Mini-Disc. Even without the High-Density mode versions, you can get 5 HOURS of recording time out of them. 296 minutes on the 74 minute blanks and 320 minutes on the 80 minute blanks.

It doesn't have variable speed control, BUT you can set track marks and back up to them very easily.

Also, you can using something like the Xitel MD-Port I/O, bring them into the computer where you CAN slow things down. There is even a program called Win-MD which I haven't tried which is supposed to work with a Net-MD recorder and import the Track information as well!

So, Uncle_DaveO, there are substitutes.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: johnross
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM

Quantegy, the company in Alabama that has closed its doors, was the last manufacturer of open-reel recording tape in North America or Europe. There's still a company in India and another in China that make reel-to-reel tape, but they don't distribute outside of Asia. There are conflicting reports as to whether Quantegy will ever resume production.

It's too soon to be sure, but it's quite possible that there will be no more open new reel tape available when the tape that is currently in the distribution pipeline is grabbed up.

There are still a handful of studios who are using open-reel tape for studio recordings and for archival copies. Those folks will be in serious trouble if Quantegy does not resume production and nobody else goes into the business.

As a sound archivist, my reaction to the news about Quantegy was to buy splicing tape, which is essential for repairing old tapes. I work with tapes all the time, but I don't ever do any new recording to reels. There are still plenty of old high-quality Ampex, Nagra and Studer tape machines out there to meet the needs of people like me who need to play existing tapes. And unlike the consumer machines made by the likes of Sony, Tascam, and all those other companies, the professional machines are relatively easy to repair and restore.

This does NOT affect cassettes or video tapes. There are still several Japanese companies producing those tape types, along with DATs and various types of data tape. You will still be able to obtain all the cassettes you want.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:53 PM

Lord, I just saw r2r tape at Radio Shack. And I have a lifetime supply, myself.

My goal is to eventually transfer the reel-to-reel stuff I have -- from my own collection and that of my youngest brother -- to CDs. Then start on the LPs I have (yes, I have turntable).

The reel-to-reel stuff includes things like the Electric Prunes' "Mass in F minor" and several versions of "Hair" (Chicago, NY, Sweden, etc.). The albums are -- well, I seriously doubt if all of the songs recorded on the LPs will ever be re-released on CDs or as an MP3 and they shouldn't be lost.

One of the advantages of tape which hasn't been mentioned is re-use. Once you'd recorded on a CD that part of it is lost for further use, which is not the same for a tape.

I should also point out that many police and fire dispatchers use reel-to-reel tapes, too.

No, I'm not arguing the merits of one over the other. But I think that all of them have their place.

(Did you know that mankind has NEVER eliminated a way of recording knowledge? It's true.)

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:22 PM

This is not dissimilar to the issue with film cameras vis a vis digital. Film will still be around since it is preferred by many pros and purists. The price will be higher for the processing and the items relating to it will be harder to come by.

The last custom film lab in NYC closed recently. The only thing left there is a custom lab where you can rent your own time and do your own processing. In my neighborhood the independent film processors are all closed down.

That said, I add---I know this is not about tape but it relates analogously--Canon Cameras have models out now that make their digital SLR compatible with their film SLR lenses. People have found (I know I did) that the regular digital cameras (the advertised $300-500.00 ones) are really not that good since there is much lag time. Good for posed pics---(back to the days of the Kodak Brownie). Unlike SLRs. So--in the end you either spend a fortune for a digital SLR, you stick with the lag time of the low end, or you compromise with a Canon compatible one for $1,000.

You can not convert tape to MD---but, frankly, that medium is, to me, the best thing that has come down the pike in a while. Why it has not taken off and is really --if not phasing out--surely phasing down is beyond me.   It is getting harder and harder to find a MD machine--portable or otherwise.

Any comments regardinig DAT---that to me was truly a pain.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:15 PM

The MD recorders were always ridiculously priced in Aus - and media hard to find - only ever seen professional uses like fireworks sound tracks.

R2R tape had the significant advantages of hand splicing - you could get very good at picking the spots to cut - and rocking the tape back and forth past the heads to set up for use in theatre sound effects. have had very bad experiences with 'automatic' systems when they get out of sync with the performance, or the actor jumps a few pages....

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: John Routledge
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:47 PM

A standard cassette tape in the UK now costs more than an MD

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:52 PM

I think it was George Seto who said:

Also, you can using something like the Xitel MD-Port I/O, bring them into the computer where you CAN slow things down.

But then in the computer I wouldn't have the foot feed control. My need for slowdown or speedup is occasional, and covering perhaps 2 or 3 seconds when it happens. Not worth transferring to the computer (or maybe I should say it would be a pain in the patootie to transfer for that tiny interlude, when I'm basically listening and possibly transcribing with a dictation playback machine).

I am relieved to understand that the end of production of this company has to do only with reel to reel tape. That was not explained in the radio feature I heard. I may have run the red flag up the pole too soon.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:23 PM

"You can not convert tape to MD---but, frankly, that medium is, to me, the best thing that has come down the pike in a while. Why it has not taken off and is really --if not phasing out--surely phasing down is beyond me.   It is getting harder and harder to find a MD machine--portable or otherwise."

Actually, it is very easy to convert tape to MiniDisc, and the units are not that hard to find. Frankly, Sony is just starting to push it here in the U.S.   They are poised to replace cassette recorders, which truly are hard to find these days.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: open mike
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:18 PM

i was surprised when last time i went to buy cassettes at Costco
i was told they did not stock them any more and were not going to...
ever. I do know that some people archive radio shows on VHS video tape.
using only the audio portion. This allows 6 hours per tape (without
having to turn it over)
I presume you are using this equipment as part of your court reporter
work. This would mean that you want something portable as you are
on site recording voices, not at your computer terminal. It is under-
standable that you do not want to lug around a bunch of equipment.
I recently got an older sony unit which plays (and records, i believe)
on lhandy-cam video camera tapes. the unit is smaller than a bread box
i mean smaller than a 3 ring binder notebook, and those tapes come in
different lengths. but they may be hard to come by soon, too.
Another media that haas come and gone, perhaps, is DAT recorders.
they use a cassette-like tape and Digital Audio Tape recorders were
a good way to capture audio, but again, have been cast aside since
the mini disc came in. Ah. for those good old days of wire recorders,
and 78's and wax cylinders..

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,tapekiller
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:03 AM

ahh.. now that i know possible nature of , location purpose for your recordings..

some pocket size hard disc mp3 players..
can also function as high quality recorders..
the bigger the hard disc, the more hours recording capacity..
you can listen back through headphones,
or line out to amp and speakers..
dont know functions any of them have, if any, for vari speed playback.., or editing,
but if you can consider some compromise of loading audio onto computer
for fine editing,
may be worth considering as a direct alternative to minidisc..
also advantage over cassett,
e & disc recorders of no aditional media costs

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: open mike
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:30 AM

e-bay item sony walkman dat recorder

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:07 AM

I used to love my Philips tape deck with slide controls, I could make smooth recordings, fading out the applause, pausing, and fading it back in for the next number. However, it died, and thinking about it, cassette decks I've owned have all been fairly short-lived.

Uncle Dave, I've decided to put all my recordings and LPs onto CD (if I live long enough, it's a labourious process, editing,) which will free up the tapes for reuse. Perhaps I should buy a few tapes and a spare recorder as insurance.
Never did like those 120min cassettes, though, so fragile. Had a couple break on me in battery machines, FF-ing in the dark.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

You can learn to 'digitize' your tapes on hard drive, back them up to a CD or DVD, meanwhile re-use the tapes for your in-the-field recording.

In defense of tape, I've been able to play back and digitize old high-fi r2r tapes of 40 years, and am currently working on doing that with the family's cassette collection. Many fine Deutsche-Grammophon classical recordings going into the computer... A lot of folk claim that old magnetic tape delaminates, but good quality tape kept dry and temperate lasts a good long time. I had a few old London r2r's of Gilbert and Sullivan which kept breaking, and learned about a tape recovery method called 'baking', you put your old tapes in the oven on low and leave 'em there for a few hours.

Still, what has happened is the equipment to read it and maintain it especially r2r is aging and not being replaced. We had a good splicer/fixer for cassette tapes at out house, but it has dried up and needs to be repaired.

Converting to CDs or DVDs is a good idea, and is not difficult or expensive, but you will have the problem again as computers and storage media change and most likely become smaller.

For the time being I think the most adaptable storage medium is hard disk drive, but they can crash.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM

Just reading the thread from interest when I saw OpenMike's comments about some people recording audio on their video tapes.
BRILLIANT!!
A few times I've wondered how to catch a radio programme while I'm out, particularly as even long audio tapes won't get a whole one hour programme while still allowing lead in time (for late running programmes or poorly set clocks)
Using the digital TV tuner to pick up the Audio channels will give me better reception and the chance to tape whole shows in one go. As I said before,
BRILLIANT!

Nigel

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:15 PM

also if you have satellite or freeview reciever
you can tape hours of stereo radio
to good quality audio hi fi video recorder

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

Ron O-

"Very easy to convert tape to mini-disc"?--is that true? (Hope so--I have an (absurd) number of tapes I don't want to lose--most recorded from the radio--a huge variety of music and radio shows--virtually all irreplaceable and hardly any on CD.)

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:34 PM

I am never buying another danged machine again until they promise not to improve it.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:38 AM

I feel a bit of Tapekiller's pain--the fact is that new technologies are coming out all the time, and not particularly old ones are biting the dust--I have been looking at palm studios with the idea that they would be great to record those wonderful, multitrack ideas that come and so often evaporate before I get to my desktop--but how long will it be before those little memory cards are hopelessly obsolete, rendering the box totally useless? At least cassettes have stayed around for a couple decades--

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 09:35 AM

... I'm still worried about not getting hold of piano rolls....!

RtS
(piano-rolls, reel-to-reel, cassettes, 78s,45s, LPs,CDs, all in my collection, thank goodness I never got into 8-track!)

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM

To say nothing of 16 2/3rds.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

Betamax...

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: johnross
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:22 PM

The whole question of which media to use for long-term archival storage of audio is a HUGE problem. There are ptoential problems with every media type that can cause the content to be lost -- cassettes lose their pressure pads, DATs have drop-outs, hard drives are mechanical devices that will eventually fail. We don't really know the shelf-life of CDs (the "archival" ones claim that they'll last 100 years, but that remains to be seen).

Short of cutting new phonodisks, reel-to-reel is probably the most stable format. But the supply of both tape and players/recorders is not going to last forever.

'Tis a quandry...

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM

I have been trying for months to get a tape cassette of an album I made in 1980 transferred to CD. No luck yet. Course, I don't have the technology and finding a place to get it done is darned near impossible in Hinton, Alberta.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM

Probably the only solution is to record on nothing, because nothing lasts forever.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:47 PM

brucie: I'm currently converting cassette after cassette to digital. If you trust the mails, let me know and I'll send you back your tape plus a CD.

I'm with brucie, I almost wait for technology to 'skip a generation' before I indulge. I held off on buying a CD player so long I had a couple dozen CDs that I had friends convert to cassette for me.

One thing I've learned is a lot of respect for the older ways. Some of those cassettes put out a great sound, and those pioneers of digital and sampling sound often sound good today. I still like "Switched-On Bach".

And comparing musicians who initiated sampling back when they were making actual loops of tape compared to those who can hit a few buttons today, the old stuff sounds great, I'm thinking in particular of "My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts" by David Byrne and Brian Eno, which was in fact the first CD I bought, because I coudn't get it any other way.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Grab
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:49 PM

Sure, but the owner of an icebox wasn't forced to buy a refrigerator; they didn't stop making ice. True enough, when refrigerator ownership grew very common the ice wagon stopped coming around the neighborhood, but the ice user could see this coming long in advance, and his investment in his icebox was long since amortized.

Dave, anyone using reel-to-reel tapes now as their primary music system deserves what they get - the writing on the wall is so large, they needed multiple barns to paint it on! ;-) They *should* have seen this coming in advance, because it's surprising no-one.

Similarly, magnetic tape of all descriptions is on its last legs - it's where LPs were in the late 80s. The only thing keeping mag-tape going is that so many people have videos and portable tape players, and with the price of CD players, minidisc players and iPod/Rio/other hard drive widgets, they just aren't going to be around for long.

The film-vs-digital and LP-vs-digital issues simply don't arise for tape, because there is nothing for which tape is a superior medium to digital. It's fragile, noisy and unreliable. You want to speed up/slow down, a PC can do it perfectly.

As far as long-term storage goes, why commit to one medium? Put it on a hard drive and archive onto CDs. If one fails, restore off the other.

Graham.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: 12string growler
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:09 PM

If you must have variable speed playback, you can get that on your PC with "Amazing Slow Downer" from www.ronimusic.com. free to try in a limited capacity. I think it costs around £10 to get the full jobby.

Usual "no connection" disclaimer.

Chris

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: 12string growler
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM

Sorry I got the price wrong. for Amazing Slow Downer.

It's $39.95 U.S.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:22 PM

I know that I have what I suppose is a peculiar set of requirements, but what I need (and what I have with the cassette technology equipment I now own) is, listed in no particular order:

1. The recording equipment must be pretty small, like a small hand held cassette recorder. This is both for easy transportability and for inconspicuousness (if that's a word). Size here, while important, is less important than weight.
2. It must record continuously for at least 4 hours without supervision, and more would of course be better. Several of the proposed alternatives seem to be an improvement on this.
3. Cost of media should not be excessive. I pay effectively about 60 cents an hour of recording time (buying 100 cassettes at a time), for media which will be kept middling long term--not a century, not fifty years, but at least 10 years.
4. The sound quality must be at least as good as I get with my high quality Sony cassette recorder with external mike. This is probably not an issue with any likely alternative.
5. When listening back, I must have foot control capability. This is not negotiable.
6. I need progressive speed-up/slow-down capability when playing back, with the ability to change the speed on a moment to moment basis, perhaps listening to one or two words first at a slower speed, then at normal, then at a higher speed, and back and forth. Time of switching back and forth is critical here. My present equipment does not provide maintenance of pitch while doing this, but it would be a real plus if new equipment would do that. The easy, quick change from one speed to another is more important than pitch maintenance for me. Again, not negotiable.
7. Output through headphones is necessary, but is not likely to be a problem.
8. Cost of recording equipment and playback equipment is, of course, relevant, but might not be a killer issue. My present cassette recorder, as I recall, cost between two hundred and two hundred fifty dollars, with another sixty for the external mike (which I probably cannot use with other equipment because it is labeled for use with Sony equipment only, so probably must replace), and the playback equipment I think might be about another two hundred. A higher price for the equipment would not be a killer issue unless it was over 50% higher, I think.
9. The initial recording equipment must be capable of operating on batteries. Not negotiable.

Amazing Slowdowner and its ilk are ruled out by the foot control requirement, as well as (I think) the easy/quick progressive speed up and slow down. Even though the pitch maintenance would have been a nice thing. In addition, I think there just might be a problem in simultaneous realtime operation of the Amazing Slowdowner and the transcribing software on the same computer.

Any alternative which records to memory would be undesirable because of the necessary loss of time in transferring to physical storage means. And of course that raises the question of "what storage means"?    So we're back to the basic question again. The storage means in such a case would have to be directly usable by the playback mechanism chosen. Cassettes, of course, have neither a transfer time disadvantage nor a compatibility problem with the playback equipment I already have. Any change from that situation would be highly undesirable.

A CD or mini-CD recorder, battery powered, with a foot controlled CD or mini-CD playback machine, may be my answer. I have to look into the cost of equipment and media, and the ability of a playback machine to provide the easy/quick progressive speed change. That last consideration sounds to me like the biggest potential drawback there.

I realize my needs, as explored above, are foreign to the music focus of Mudcat, so thank you for putting up with my longwinded navel-gazing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM

Dave O,

I have several generations of recording equipment that my father used over the years. Since I'm in the early stages yet of figuring out what all he was doing when he made his recordings, I've kept all of the equipment he used to do it. It sounds like you might be a man to answer some of my questions as I unpack boxes and boxes of cassettes and reel-to-reel tapes and begin listening and transfering them to CD.

I also think there might be a level of redundancy in his equipment that some of it can be set aside as surplus. If this happens, I'll inform the Mudcatter's who still use the old solid state equipment.

I finally got my hands on a good reel-to-reel player this year (Dad's was picked up by another family member when we were dividing up his estate). Now I can listen to his earliest tapes.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From:
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:18 PM

DaveO, I'm curious if you mean by mini-CD what we are calling Minidisc machines. Not exactly the same. There are Mini-CDs, which are about 3 inches in diameter. Minidiscs are about 2 inches square for the exterior casing.

Anyway, except for the variable speed requirement a Mini-Disc portable such as the Sony Discman series should do.

1 - Cost of media 1.75 Cdn for ONE disc when purchased in lots of 10. That's roughly 35 cents per hour.
2 - Foot control is possible, but you'd have to make your own foot control. The Sony Discman units (and perhaps other manufacturers) use a resistance to determine which function is being pressed on the remote control. The Sony ones are well documented so you could make your own foot control.

Your items one, two, four and seven through nine are inherent in the Minidisc portables. My MZ-N707 uses a single AA cell, and records for about 4 or so hours on the once battery continuously. Your Sony mic, if it is a stereo 3.5mm plug will work well with this unit.

Now... About item six. Nothing I know of currently will do this except some of the Secretarial dictation machines. IS this what the use of the equipment is for? You might ask Sony if they have a Minidisc version for business?

Oh, one other thing, the mini-CD's are not re-writable like the Minidisc is able to do.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM

well, it IS unsettling for someone like Uncle Dave...and me....to have gone, in our lifetime, from almost no way to do personal sound recording to having several waves of media introduced and made obsolete!...Plus having commercial media like film, (8 & 16mm) also go away. Just try to buy a lamp for a movie projector!

I know that for folks who continuously use and update their technological aids, it is just 'progress', but for semi-casual users, it is more than the wallet can bear. What do you MEAN I can't get a needle for my phonograph? I have 700 LPs that are perfectly good! What do you MEAN I can't get cassette tape or decent new players? I've spent years slowly transferring LPs *TO* cassette tape, so I could reduce wear on the LPs!

Yes...I see why CDs...and MDs..and DVDs....have some advantages, and I am beginning to use those, but I can't afford to grab every new advance...and update all my camera stuff too every 2 years! I am doing moderately well with it all, but someone needs to stock some warehouses with all this *obsolete* stuff to make the transition more smooth and allow us to save recordings of various sorts....

Right now they are not 'sure' how permanent some of these new 'advances' are...CDs will deteriorate just like tape will, if not re-done at regular intervals.

I may live another 30 years...am I gonna have 3 MORE sets of equipment to buy in order to watch videos of my son or listen to recordings of the 1971 Winfield flatpicking contest?

sheeesh! Maybe we're gonna have to learn to SING again!

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

Oh shit, next thing you know they'll be saying 8 track stereo is on the way out.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:58 PM

Naw, you can always find a few at garage sales, Terry! I saw some a couple of weeks ago. Were you looking for Tony Orlando and Dawn?

:)

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

To address Uncle_DaveO's question, Quantegy will soon stop delivering audio tape. They are the last gasp of the Ampex Electric Corporation, formerly located in Redwood City, California. Products from their current Alabama operation have never received the respect that earlier ones did, although designations like '456 Grand Master' are still sold.

The German company called BASF is now part of Emtec and they appear happy to sell recording tape, even blank cassettes. Several places on the net are listed including this one:

                      The Tape Company

Several other tape manufactures exist, many of them are located in Japan. Also, China will supply anything you want in the future as long as a profit can be made.
   
                      Here Is Emtec

As far as cassettes go, most people I know have always used TDK or Maxell anyway. Sony, Maxell, Emtec (=BASF), Panasonic, Ination, Quantum, Fuji,Taiyo Yuden and TDK are listed at the above web site. Buy case lots if you want to plan for the future.

Quality cassette cases are held together with screws. If things really get desperate, the case can be disassembled and reloaded with new tape.

Does anyone else think there should be a separate thread with a title such as "alternate recording techniques of the future" or "new technologies replacing tape and CD"?

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 09:11 PM

To answer someone's comment above:

Yes, I guess I did mean minidiscs when I referred to mini-CDs. Frankly, I thought the two expressions were equivalent.

As soon as I get off here I intend to hit Martel Electronics
website. They are the specialist house from whom I have bought my present equipment, and will surely know if there is minidisc equipment that meets my criteria, and if there is, I'd bet heavy money they sell it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 10:16 PM

Dave--I agree with PDQ--I think it is a bit early to bail out on cassettes--for one thing, music stores are still selling a lot of multitrack cassette recorders, for another, I believe that, though here in what we laughingly call the first world, we are moving to new technologies at a depressingly fast rate, in the larger and more populated regions, they still sell a lot of commercial music on cassette-so you can get em, and probably will be able to get em for a while--

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM

I agree that cassettes will be with us for ahile yet, but I suspect the high quality end is phasing/phased out. Is Nakamichi still making cassette players? I didn't see any on their web site and I couldn't bring up nakamichiusa (odd, because I thought it was an American company).

The big attraction for cassettes was of course, their portability and flexibility and especially you could record for yourself as well as purchase pre-recorded. That has now been supplanted twice over, by CD recorders, and now by cheap DVD recorders. So why should anyone invest in a Dolby capable recorder or playback? Meanwhile the cheap stuff will still be out there and get even cheaper. And good quality cassettes when treated well last a generation at least.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From:
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 06:55 PM

Yes, apparently they opted out of the Cassette Deck market sometime around 1996.

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 01:55 AM

There are still high end cassette decks out there--Marantz, Tascam, Sony, Pioneer--all make them--Nakamichi has moved into Home Theater Systems--and Nakamichiusa.com is still there--

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,Master Transcription
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

To Dave Oesterreich, and your need for foot pedal control: As a transcriptionist, I can tell you that there are software + foot pedal packages (but for Windows, not Mac) wherein digital audio files are transferred to your computer, and the software/foot pedal setup allows you to stop, start, rewind and fast-forward your using the foot pedal control. Thus, if you plan on capturing your audio in a digital format, and you can wait to get to your computer to do your foot pedal tasks, you're home free.

I read this whole thread with great interest because I provide transcription for a lot of post-production people, and I have one client that wants to give me standard audiocassettes with two channels of info: audio on one, and time code signal on the other.   This is for the purpose of having me provide her with a time-coded transcription. With my other clients, I'm provided with a VHS tape with a time code window burn. That's the way I like to work, but this one client says it's more time-consuming and costly for her to provide me with these VHS tapes.

I have NO idea what to do with these two-track audiotapes she wants to give me, and the only transcription company I know of that accepts these strange audiotapes is an outfit in Washington, D.C.   I'm in Chicago, and my client sends these tapes to D.C., when I would love to have the work instead. But transcriptionists work either with standard transcription machines (analog or digital) that have foot pedals, or are moving to this new technology where they can use the computer as a virtual transcription machine.

If anyone has any words of advice about these audio/time code signal audiocassettes, I'd love to hear it. I tried rigging a time code reader/writer to my transcription machine with the help of Chicago Tape and Film Works, but because my transcription machine is mono (which I can only imagine all transcription machines are), it didn't work.

Dave if you want info on the software/foot pedal package, email me at [e-mail].

Beth

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM

I recently unpacked the various pieces of equipment that my Dad (John Dwyer) used to record the many sessions he attended. They include a little Sony Stereo cassette recorder (TCS-450); Sony Capstan Servo Control Stereo Cassette-corder Sendust & Ferrite head, Dolby System; Sony Stereo Cassette-corder Walkman Professional Capstan Servo Amorphous Head (Dolby NR).

There's more around, but that's what I think he took with him to record sessions. He was a Sony man. :) My question:

If the tapes he produced on these have some Dolby features, what must I do to capture that when I want to burn them to CDs? I recently took some of his cassettes (some early, some more recent) and compiled a CD, but the results were mixed. I played them on a regular home system (AIWA amplified receiver, dual cassette decks, turntable, CD player). From that they went to my computer. The distortion was in some instances difficult to work with (correct). If I play the tapes on one or more of these smaller devices that he did the recordings on and plug them into my computer, will it work any better? Is it safe to assume that a five-year-old AIWA system will play the Dolby properly and it will go to my computer in a usable form or should the original equipment be used?

How can I tell if a tape was recorded using Dolby or not if it isn't marked on the cassette? Or can I?

Thanks for your help, folks!

SRS

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 12:17 AM

Use the Walkman Professional..
if its in good working condition with clean playback heads.
[ a new dry head cleaning cassette recommended in 1st instance ]

mini stereo jack audio leadfrom line out to computer line in.


it is of equal, even better, play back sound quality than most
average hi fi cassette players.

I know because i purchased one about 15 years ago,
and it rightly deserved its reputation for being top class equipment.

Theres no way of telling if a tape has been recorded with dolby,
except playing it..
and switching the dolby b/ dolby c / dolby off slider switch
to the position that sounds best to you..

if it sounds too bright and very hissy, switch between the 2 dolby positions for the best result to your ears..

if too muffled and dull, switch dolby off to see if sound improves.

same with tape type selector..
[normal/chrome/metal..cant remember exact labling]
tapes may most likely have been recorded with appropriate setting for the tape type printed on cassette..
so try that setting first..
again if not sure select between settings to see if any difference or improvement.

hope this helps

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 12:27 AM

..this advice given on the assumption you still have
the correct mains plug in powerpack supply for the pro walkan..

otherwise you're gonna need a lot of batteries..

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 10:08 PM

Thanks for your advice, punkfolkrocker! Dad always got all of the attachments and peripherals so I have the adaptors and plugs to go with the equipment. I'll give that Walkman a try--it appears to be the newest of the devices he was using. But they're all very solid and appear in good shape and have aged well. He spent a number of years as the AV Librarian at the college where he worked, and I think he got his hands on enough professional equipment that he continued to buy the good up-to-date stuff after he retired.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,Olympus DS-4000 and kit may be the answer
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

Check out the Olympus DS-4000 and the transcriber kit; AS4000. This is a solution that will give you continuous recording in a handheld unit that will link back to your computer at home where you can then use the footpedal to control forward reverse and speed settings. There are no tapes to worry with, it comes with a 32mb xd-picture card, so even the smallest card will run 5 hours of recording, but you can expand up to a 512mb card for more hours than any human should ever need. You can create mulitple files then download via usb to your computer for multiple jobs that you may have before wanting to store or burn your recordings on a cd/dvd. You can edit with the DS4000 as well. Olympus is about 3 years ahead of the competition on digital transcription and conference recording. This model you can even use external mikes and have a duel recording, meaning you can go back and transcribe everything on the recording or switch to transcribe one mike at a time. There is a smaller unit, the DS-2200 but it doesn't have all of the features that the DS4000 does for transcribing. It comes with software and other accessories. You can learn more at the olympus site about this line of products. I hope this has been of some help. Have a great day. Cherokee Data Solutions

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM

About AUD$800.00..... well, that can wait for awhile...

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:53 PM

From a slightly different perspective?

Analogue tape is far from a dying medium - nor is vinyl!

An awful lot of music is still recorded using 16 and 24 track tape - the two that spring instantly to mind are Kean and Nora Jones and the extreme - The White Stripes (I know that none are even close to on-topic here, but folk albums don't tend to get write ups in the technical press!) The process is record absolutely everything you could possibly want to tape, then dump it onto ProTools and edit and mix digitally. It may seem like this a waste of time and energy, but Studer saw enough of a market to re-issue the last 24 track machine it made, and plenty of people still feel that analogue has something to offer in terms of sound.

As for vinyl!!!

I don't suppose many people reading this spend much time clubbing - nor do I. But you won't find many proffesional DJs using anything but vinyl when they play in a club. I am talking about serious DJs, Fat Boy Slim and the like, but dance musc still sells large quantity of vinyl, and many more mainstream bands still release singles and eps on vinyl.

None of which has anything to do with cassette tapes. I'm not sure that Quantegy (or Ampex before them) ever made cassettes?

None of which helps the original poster at all! Sorry about that.

Someone mentioned the Sony Pro-Walkman? Fantastic piece of kit - the first Michelle Shocked (Vaguely folk?) album was recorded on one.

Sorry to go so far off topic,

Cheers

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:46 AM

Damn it guest, you SHOULD be sorry. You made me learn something!
;-)

Subject: RE: The Death of Recording Tape?
From: johnross
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM

Maggie:
In theory, you can use any playback machine with Dobly to transfer those tapes. Best thing to do is to experiment and see what sounds best.

For everybody else:
There are still planty of companies making analog cassettes. There is little danger that the supply will disappear for many years.

As for reel-to-reel tape, there are three different groups in Europe and North America who are planning to start making tape.It's my guess that all three won't make it to production, but at least one will probably start selling new tape within the next six months.