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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE From: triskelle Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:39 PM I am working on a website which offers the visitor a journey through Irish history and Ireland in general with references to Irish songs. Among my problems is one real nutcracker: There is an Irish lullaby with the title Castle of Dromore. Guess what: there are at least three "Castles of Dromore" or "Dromore Castles" on Ireland. The Castles of Dromore in the counties Kerry and Limerick are still existing, and the Castle of Dromore in County Down is demolished. Does anybody knows to which castle this song refers to? Second question is why this castle surfaced in a lullaby. The final, but less important, question is: who the he** is "Clan Owen's wild banshee"? Lyrics copy-pasted from the link cited above. The October winds lament around the castle of Dromore Sing hushabye loo, low loo, low lan Dread spirits all of black water, Clan Owen's wild banshee Take time to thrive, my ray of hope, in the garden of Dromore |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: emjay Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:47 PM I picked up a recording with this song. The notes said something about a very old source, and "there were no words, and they were in English." Lovely song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: triskelle Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM It is a nice song indeed (sometimes I hum it for my niece, I don't want to scare her by actually singing it). The fact that the words are English is not surprising, several "traditional Irish" songs are translated in English. In act several songs in the top of the "Irish Traditional Song List" (such as "Danny Boy", "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" and "Molly Malone") aren't even written by Irish authors. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Susan of DT Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:09 PM Recorded by Bok, Trickett and Muir on Folk Legacy record: Ways of Man |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:23 PM The October winds lament around The Castle of Dramore, And deep within her (my?) loving arms The fair young Elanore. The above--all I can remember--was done by The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem. Heard it over 40 years ago. I think the title is "The October Winds". Not sure about that. Anyone? |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE From: Seaking Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM I originally learned this after hearing the Clancys (I think it was Liam who sang it) and still sing it occasionally. Castle of Dromore The October Winds lament around the Castle of Dromore Yet peace is in her lofty halls, my loving treasure store Tho' Autumn leaves may droop and die A bud of Spring are you Chorus Sing Hushaby loo La Loo lo Lan Sing Hushaby Loo Lo lan Take time to strive your ray of hope in the Garden of Dromore Take Heed young Eaglet til' thy wings are feathered fit to soar A litle rest and then the world Is full of work to do Take no ill wind to hinder us my helples babe and me Dread spirit of the Blackwater, Clan Owen's wild Banshee And Holy Mary Pitying Us In Heaven for grace doth sue |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM An unrelated song. Those sleeve notes were rather misleading: the song is not "very old"; the tune is older, but not necessarily by a great deal. The words of the song were written by Sir Harold Boulton to a traditional tune, My Wife is Sick. There are Irish Gaelic words, but they are a translation into Irish of Boulton's lyric, made by Douglas Hyde. Subsequently a good few people have assumed (having not read the book in which the song was published in 1892) that the Irish words must be older, and a rumour has long circulated that they are 18th century, which would have surprised Hyde! A quick search of the Forum via the onsite search engine ("Lyrics and Knowledge Search" at the top of every page) will find you, among other discussions of the song here, this thread: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location. Info on the history of the song (what there is of it) and a reasonably firm identification of the locale as Dromore at Blackwater Bridge, Kerry. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM Sorry, Triskelle. I opened your link after I posted the above. Apologies. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: triskelle Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM don't bother |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM Ah, the perils of simultaneous posting. Dromore is in the DT and has been posted here before (more than once, I think). I was wrong to characterise Brucie's words as "unrelated", though he seems to have mixed them up with something else, which confused me for a moment... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: triskelle Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:51 PM Thanks Malcolm! Tonight I sleep and tomorrow I pick up studying again! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:52 PM Malcolm, It's me who's confused. lol Now I'll stay awake wondering who Elanore is. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Pauline L Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:41 AM I just read the earlier thread, cited by Malcolm Douglas, above, and it's fascinating. However, no one has explained the verse: Take no ill wind to hinder us my helples babe and me Dread spirit of the Blackwater, Clan Owen's wild Banshee And Holy Mary Pitying Us In Heaven for grace doth sue Regardless of the identity of the "dread spirit of the Blackwater, Clan Owen's wild Banshee," I don't understand the sense of this verse. The religious meaning eludes me. Can anyone explain it? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Pauline L Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:05 PM Refresh. I really love this song, and I want to learn more about it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM "Spirit of the Air" (a Bain Sidhe, or "Banshee.") The 'Blackwater" s/b black water. Take no ill wind to hinder us, my helpless babe and me, Dread spirit of the Blackwater, Clan Owen's wild Banshee I would interpret this to be a 'prayer' to the heavens--something like, "Please, we need not the wind in our face nor evil spirits to hinder us." Mother Mary intercedes on behalf of the parent and child. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:40 PM More to the point, I suspect, late 19th century "Celtic Twilight" romanticism. Boulton wasn't Irish, but he had as good a grasp of the general idiom as did A P Graves, Tom Moore and the rest who were actually born there. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM If we take the two stanzas and 'translate': Dread spirits all of black water, ALL THE SPIRITS OF BLACK (adj) WATER ARE DREAD SPIRITS Clan Owen's wild banshee AND THE BAIN SIDHE OF THE OWEN CLAN Bring no ill wind to him nor us, (PLEASE (?) DON'T BRING BAD LUCK/FORTUNE TO My helpless babe and me MY CHILD AN ME Chorus And Holy Mary pitying us To Heaven for grace doth sue MARY INTERCEDES ON BEHALF OF THE MOTHER AND CHILD I'm with Malcolm on that--romanticism. Love the song, though. And the melody is beautiful. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Snuffy Date: 06 Jan 05 - 08:04 PM Is there a pun intended here? - the Anglicised version of the Irish name of the various River Blackwaters is Owenduff, but it's a different Owen to the personal name |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Pauline L Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:52 AM Thanks for the explanation of the dread spirits and Holy Mary. I remember reading that Christianity was established in Ireland long ago, but it did not displace beliefs in nature's spirits, hence churches with names like Our Lady of Name-of-Large-Stone-near-River. This helps give the song a traditional Irish feeling. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 07 Jan 05 - 10:11 AM Pauline L, Thank you for starting this thread. "The C of D" is what I have always known as "The October Winds". It was like meeting a good friend I hadn't seen in years only to find out I was not only happy to see him again but also that I had missed him very much. Bruce M |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM Sorry, I see that triskelle started this thread. My thanks. BM |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Tannywheeler Date: 07 Jan 05 - 03:31 PM Love this one. Also remember it as "October Winds". One of the old beliefs I've heard of (Scots, Irish, Gael, Celt?) is that a clan (family group)has it's own spirit(the banshee) which warns of death/ill fortune to any of its members by howling or crying, prior to occurence, usually at night. I was also told that Blackwater was the name of a river. That verse (starting "Bring no ill will to hinder us...")is a mixed prayer: evil spirits/ghosts LEAVE MY BABY ALONE, and Holy Mary (Jesus' mom)intercede for us with God. And I always heard the last line of the first verse as "A bird of spring are you",but "bud" makes sense, too. But the last verse, I think, may be more like: "Take time to thrive, my ray of hope,(r.o.h.= the baby) In the gardens of Dromore. Take heed, young eaglet(y.e.=the baby), til thy wings Be feather-fit to soar -- A little rest, and then the world Is full of work to do." I've wondered if the song isn't the prayer of a young widow with a baby, hoping for peacetime and no epidemics, so she has a better chance of raising the child to adulthood. Nevertheless, to quote K. Hepburn, it works soft and slow in a rocking chair with a groggy child, one of my favorite workstations. Tw |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Peace Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM Tw: I agree on the River Blackwater. But one version of the song gives it as a proper noun and another gives it as an adjective-common noun combination. Yours is likely the better way to interpret. Good eye. BM |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Barry T Date: 08 Jan 05 - 03:54 PM I recall that we had a somewhat lively discussion on the location of the castle portrayed in the song. Given its popularity and its potential as a tourist draw, several locations in Ireland have been quick to claim it as 'theirs'. Certainly the Kenmare location is a natural conclusion, given that it rests alongside the Blackwater River. However, during our exploration we discovered that the name Blackwater applies to numerous rivers throughout Ireland; indeed, there are also multiple castles named Dromore, or locations named Dromore that contain castles. Our conclusion at the time (though by no means a consensus decision) was that the castle just might be a metaphorical castle IN (the district of) Dromore, as opposed to a specific castle named Dromore. The reference to Clan Owen and the fact that Boulton was known to have visited the north suggests that his inspiration was spawned there. I personally like the concept of the conclusion that the castle is a magic and imaginary one! It's appearance is whatever you envision when you sing or hear those lyrics. 'Great song... one of my favourites! - - - - - |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Jan 05 - 06:54 PM I had trouble finding a CD recording of this song. The only recording I could find at on a Tradition CD called "Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem." But then I found I had it on a "Best of the Vanguard Years" CD by The Clancy Brothers with Lou Killen, titled "The Castle of Dramore." Then I found it on a number of Celtic CD's as "October Winds," including the Celtic Lullaby CD by Margie Butler, which has an overdose of reverb. Note that I've crosslinked our threads on the song. the chief disagreements seem to be the order of the second and third verses, and the order of the first and second lines of the "banshee" verse. The DT has:
Bring no ill wind to him nor us, my helpless babe and me And Holy Mary pitying us to Heaven for grace doth sue I think I like the DT version better. -Joe Offer- Here's the tune, translated from Alison's post in another thread: Click to playAnd from John in Brisbane: Click to play |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Pauline L Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:26 AM Tannywheeler, thanks for your explanation. I can believe that the mother was hedging her bets by importuning both the Celtic spirits and the Christian. I also like the idea that the castle of Dromore can be wherever you want it to be. I was disappointed when I learned that Isle Au Haut, per Gordon Bok, is a real place. I prefer the place that exists in my imagination. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM I come to this thread very late. The Banshee has a specific role in Irish lore - it is the spirit which portends death in a family. Each household, or castle, or clan, may have their own banshee. The banshee wails before a death in the family. The howl of the banshee is like a keeing wind through trees (probably explains why it was heard quite often!). The spirits of the river Blackwater may refer to the dead of battles which took place there, or the location of Dromore's familial spirits generally, including the banshee. Either way the banshee has a particular meaning and this may help you see what the song is about - how much of it is a lament, and how much of it a lullaby. It is a mother singing to a baby boy, probably the heir of Dromore, in the hope he will not die in infancy as was so common. She invokes Mary to protect her baby from the 'ill wind' or the banshee's wail, and begs the banshee to keep away or silent. A rather sad lullaby, to hope that the eaglet will survive to leave the nest rather than perish. Bishop Percy, whose 'Reliques of Ancient Poetry' published in the mid-1700s is one of the first major works on old ballads and songs of Scotland, Ireland and England was Bishop of Dromore though resident in the North East of England most of the time (this being more or less a sinecure). Consequently the name of Dromore would always be known to Victorian traditional song and tune gatherer/authors like Boulton. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST,gnu Date: 05 Jun 05 - 08:50 AM Partial cut and paste : ********************************************************* Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location From: Barry T Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:03 PM This is the most definitive information I have read on the tune. Thank you! As for location, I think the reference to the Blackwater River in the lyrics suggests the Kerry location. Though there are about half a dozen Dromore Castles and a few Blackwater Rivers, this is the only Dromore castle situated on a river called Blackwater. Not proof, but evidence. ******************************************************* Excellent discussion of my favourite song. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE From: GUEST,gnu Date: 05 Jun 05 - 10:48 AM From another source: ************************************************************ We known at least four castles named Castle of Dromore or Dromore Castle in the counties Down, Kerry, Limerick and Tyrone. Several discussions on the Internet are dedicated to pinpoint the geological location of the lullaby Castle of Dromore without decisive outcome. Without solid proof Dromore Castle, in County Tyrone is taking the lead. Clan Owen in the second verse refers to the descendants of Eoghan, anglicised in Owen or Eugenius. This clan once possessed the counties Tyrone, or Tir Eoghan, and Londonderry and parts of County Donegal. The presence of a Black Water in County Tyrone is circumstantial evidence as there are dozens of Black Waters on Ireland. *********************************************************** I can't seem to find a map that indicates the path of Blackwater River near the town of Dromore in County Tyrone, nor can I find the location of this castle in county Tyrone. My family has always believed the song was from Tyrone. Our research shows Edwd (Edward) Owens emigrated from Tyrone in 1840, in his early thirties, to Sussex, New Brunswick, Canada and subsequently obtained land on the Salmon River in Kent County. My father told me that my great-grandfather sang a song in Gaelic which he learned from his grandfather, Edward. This song was taught to my father and I learned it as follows : **** NOW... PLEASE understand that my father came from a loooong line of teasers and tall tale tellers. It is not only possible, but HIGHLY probable, based on the above posts, that my old man was stringing me along. As a matter of fact, he told me that our name was "Owen" but that Edward was caught stealing sheep and the "s" was imposed on the end of our name to forever shame him and his offspring. Even though he left Ireland, the "s" could not be removed. Dad's version of "original sin", maybe? AND, I still have his LP "Hearty and Hellish by Tommy Makem and the Clancy Brothers. Hmmmm.**** Okay, here it is... Castle of Dromore The October winds lament around this Castle of Dromore, Yet peace is in her lofty halls, my loving treasure store. Tho Autumn leaves may droop and die, a bud of spring are you. Sing hush-abye loo, la loo, lo-lan, Sing hush-abye loo, la loo. Bring no ill-wind to hinder us, my helpless babe and me, Dread spirit of the Blackwater, Clan Owens' wild banshee. And Holy Mary pitying us, in heaven for grace doth sue. Sing hush-abye loo, la loo, lo-lan, Sing hush-abye loo, la loo. Allow time to thrive my ray of hope, in this garry of Dromore, Take heed young eaglet til thy wings are feathered fit to soar. A little rest, and then the world is full of work to do. Sing hush-abye loo, la loo, lo-lan, Sing hush-abye loo, la loo. And, Dad told me that "Take heed young eaglet til thy wings are feathered fit to soar." meant "Don't fuck with the eagles til you learn to fly." Hmmm. Maybe it was a load of BS, but it's a good story. Gary Owens |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:53 PM I always heard it as: Bring no ill will to him nor us, my helpless babe and me... I often sang this song to my little girl when she was wee... but I always changed the last verse deliberately to: A little while, and then the world is full of work to do (as oppsed to "a little rest"). And by that, I meant the growing up years will be so short. Soon this litte child will be grown up and working, and worrying about the worlds troubles.... only a little while.... enjoy that little while... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST,Iolair Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM The half-line "my loving treasure store" I've seen as "acushla ban asthore", which is more or less the same thing, and may be lifted from Hyde's version. Or was it "a coisde ban a stoir"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST,aine in Canada Date: 12 Sep 09 - 10:22 PM I remember hearing many years ago (I am now in my 70's) that the tune is very ancient - can anybody verify that? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST,julia Date: 13 Sep 09 - 10:23 PM The tune, which is "my wife is sick and like to die", appears in Edward Buntings collection of harp tunes made in the late 18th, early 19th c. He collected from harpers who had learned the music through the oral tradition. he notes that it is "ancient" best- Julia |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST,Taconicus Date: 04 Jul 10 - 11:10 AM I'm currently looking at a facsimile edition of "Songs Sung and Unsung" by Harold Boulton. In the table of contents, this song is listed as having come from Boulton's earlier 1892 publication, "Songs of the Four Nations." That book describes itself as "A Collection of Old Songs of the People of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, for the most part never before published with complete words and accompaniments." While that book has "English words by Harold Boulton" for this song, Boulton names himself only as the editor of this compilation of "old songs," and therefore it's unclear whether Boulton actually thought up the words, or (as seems much more likely) only collected and provided them for the publication. The composer (musical arranger) is listed as Arthur Somervell. There is already a 2002 posting on Mudcat with the lyrics of "The Castle of Dromore" from that book, "Songs of the Four Nations," here: http://www.mudcat.org/detail_pf.cfm?messages__Message_ID=827566 |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE From: GUEST Date: 04 Jul 10 - 11:37 AM According to the post cited above, "mo páiste veg asthore" means, literally, "little child, my treasure." However, the lyrics given in that posting differ slightly from what I see in my facsimile edition of "Songs Sung and Unsung." In that edition, in the original typeset, the lyrics are set forth by Boulton as: ___________________ October winds lament around the Castle of Dromore, But peace is in her lofty halls, mo páiste veg asthore; Though autumn leaves may droop and die, a bud of spring are you, Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo. Bring no ill-winds to hinder us, my helpless babe and me, Dread spirits of the Blackwater, Clan Eoghan's wild banshee; For Holy Mary, pitying us, in heaven for grace doth sue; Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo. Take time to thrive, my rose of hope, in the garden of Dromore; Take heed, young eaglet, till your wings have feathers fit to soar. A little rest, and then the world is full of work to do; Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo. ------------------- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jul 10 - 12:59 PM The above may indeed be the lyrics as written on page 51 of the later Songs Sung and Unsung, but below are the lyrics as printed in the earlier, 1893 Fourth Edition of Songs of the Four Nations. The most notable difference is ill-will rather than ill-winds. apparently, Boulton himself changed the lyric for his later publication of Songs Sung and Unsung. _______________________________________ THE CASTLE OF DROMORE (IRISH LULLABY) October winds lament around the Castle of Dromore, But peace is in her lofty halls, *mo páiste veg asthore; Though autumn leaves may droop and die, a bud of spring are you— Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo.
Bring no ill–will to hinder us—my helpless babe and me,
Take time to thrive, my rose of hope, in the garden of Dromore; _______________________________________ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: gnu Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:26 PM "Will" and "wind" both work and stand on their own, for obvious reasons. However, in the imagery and context of the song, I prefer "wind" as a banshee is mentioned in the next line (which is often associated with a howling, forceful wind) and as the young eaglet soars upon the wind later in the song. Either way, it is a truly wonderful song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST,mg Date: 30 Jul 10 - 03:31 PM I remember a very nice Irish Rovers show and they I think went to a Castle of Dromore and I think it was in Northern Ireland. Of course they aren't the last word, but that is where I have since presumed it to be. I was telling some junior high girls once to be quiet and I told them they were screaming like banshees...they just looked at me and said what is a banshee and I was stunned because I had never known people who didn't know what a banshee was or had a reasonably good guess. mg |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jul 10 - 05:08 PM I wonder what artist (or scribe) first changed the pronunciation of lullaloo (luh-lah-loo) to loo, low loo, which is used in most recorded versions today? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: Clontarf83 Date: 30 Jul 10 - 06:33 PM This may not help much... I inherited my mother's sheet music collection, mostly built up in the 1920s. The Castle of Dromore is in there. The credits indicate the English words were written by Harold Boulton, with an Irish translation by Douglas Hyde. The melody is described as an old Irish air, arranged by Arthur Somervell. The inside sheet includes the gaelic translation. The English version submitted by Taconius above is the version I have. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:59 AM I don't remember when I first came across this song, but the version I sing speaks of the "Black Watchers, Clan Owen's Wild Banshee" So, what was the Black Water? Through my Mother's Heritage, I've found that I had Relatives who fought in the Battle of Culloden Field. I have aways been curious about these conections. In the version I sing, the second verse goes, "Bring no ill will to hinder us, my helpless Babe and me. Dread Spirits of the Black Watchers, clan Owen's Wild Banshee.And Holy Mary pitying us in Heaven for Grace doth sue, Sing Hushabye Loo, La Loo, Lo Lan, Sing Hushabye Loo, La Lo" My Father's Heritage is from Ireland, on his Father's side,but I can't seem to find anything about it. His name is "Charles" . Now, his mother was from Praag, Czechia where I recently had the privilege of walking across the "Charles" Bridge - the "Karel"bridge. I can't find much info over his history, but I know there is something important there. My Grandmother's name was Sokola - the feminine version of Sokol, one of the most important names in Pragg. Wow. From Diane Reed |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore From: gnu Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM VERY interesting, Diane. I gotta go find something. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE From: gnu Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:29 AM From my old man (Owens; learned from elders from Salmon River, Kent County, NB, CAN) as written by me... CASTLE OF DROMORE October winds lament around the castle of Dromore Yet peace is in her lofty halls, my loving treasure store Though autumn leaves may droop and die, a bud of spring are you Sing hushabye loorah, loorah lan Sing hushabye loorah loo Dread spirits of the Blackwater, Clan Owens wild banshee Bring no ill wind to hinder us, my helpless babe and me And Holy Mary pitying us in Heaven her grace doth sooth Sing hushabye loorah, loorah lan Sing hushabye loorah loo Take time to thrive, my ray of hope, in the garden of Dromore Take heed, young eaglet, till thy wings are feathered fit to soar A little rest and then the world is full of work to do A little rest and then the world is full of work to do |
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