Folk Music in U.S.

Subject: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:06 PM

I know that Folk in the U.K. is more far-spread than in the U.S. It's unfortunately an ignored art here. With things like Rock and Pop still winning out in this country where Pop Culture is considered EVERYTHING! I wish we had more of a scene, and different types of acoustic music were welcomed more.
Here it's still considered more of a Sixties style than anything else, with visions of Joan Baez emoting in people's heads...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

Here in Pocatello there's quite an acoustic scene. "Pub 'n' Suds" has Celtic on Mondays and other folk/acoustic venues during the rest of the week -- you can drink a beer, listen to music, and wash your clothes all at the same time (it's also a laudromat), and they have decent food, too.

There's an old-time fiddlers group, groups for jazz, blues, and barbershop. There's true Western (not the C-W stuff, but you can get that too). There's even a couple of bagpipers (Scottish). And of course there are a number of choral groups which encompass styles from R&B to gospel to church. There's even a couple of skat singers.

We don't have any cajun or klezmer as far as I know, though.

And 'way off in the hills, off where the native golfs fly over the fence, there's a lonely folk trumpter. He's armed, so don't criticize his playing too much.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM

Hi, Chris - I think traditional folk music is doing fairly well in the U.S. - you just have to look a little harder. It doesn't have the commercial backing it has in the UK; but it's here, and it's healthy. I've been to traditional singing sessions in Washington, DC, in Oregon and Washington State, in Denver, in Boston, in Connecticut, and in various places in California. Our Song Circle Locations PermaThread hasn't been updated for a while, but it will give you a good idea how widespread traditional singing is.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM

Chris, I think the folkies in Britain are at least as much an "embattled minority" in their society as we are in the US, maybe moreso. I've read plenty of their messages bemoaning the relative invisibility and dwindling presence of folk music on BBC and in British society in general.

I think we get a distorted picture of the size and influence of their group on the UK as a whole because they are such a strong presence here within the Mudcat Cafe. However, when you think about it, the fact that one or two hundred folkies scattered throughout the UK all seem to know each other so well might indicate that they're NOT a significant subculture in British society as a whole.

No offense to anyone ~ I'm *glad* we have people who are so passionate about preserving the music and culture they love. And, of course, I might be wrong [to some extent, anyway] ~ just spouting one possible theory.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM

Traditional, contemporary, commercial, etc... all flavors that are given the term "folk" have a following here in the U.S.   

If you think "pop culture" is a phenomenon ONLY in the U.S., you should get out more! By definition "pop" music will be popular. When folk music was "pop", back in the late 1950's and early 1960's it went through so many commercial changes and divisions that we still have armed camps on both sides of the fence in 2005.

I'm not sure where you live Chris, but here in the NYC/NJ area there are a number of options available to a traditional folk music fan. NY Pinewoods always runs great events. In NJ there are similar enclaves. The late Lil Appel ran a Friday night "session" at here home where people came to SING folk songs - of all flavors. After Lil passed, others have taken up the responsibility to keep it alive.   There are also groups devoted to traditional forms of dance - contra, square, English Country dance, etc.   All forms of ethnic music carry on as well.

It isn't about quantity, it is about quality. If we had coffeehouses with lines around the block of people trying to get in, "folk" music would undergo a significant change.   I think we have it better than we realize.

I've been doing folk music radio for the past 25 years. All of the above items have led to an active "scene" which has enabled me to keep my show going. Folk music is doing very well here in the U.S.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM

I agree with chris'nightbird'childs that

"it's [folk music] still considered more of a Sixties style than anything else, with visions of Joan Baez emoting in people's heads..."

IMO, the United States is a mass media driven nation and the mass media has defined 'folk' for the people as Joan Baez type music.

Since we 'Unitedstaters' are not known for being independent thinkers, we bought and continue to buy this definition of 'folk music'.

Speaking for myself, prior to reading Mudcat threads,
I thought folk music was the Joan Baez, Peter, Paul & Mary sounds and no more [no disrepect intended or deserved]..

Away from Mudcat, out in the real world, I still don't use 'folk' to refer to the type of music I now realize IS folk-Blues, early Jazz, Zydeco and the like...

The problem may be that there are so many different folk here in the USA- with different folklore and different folk cultures -that there were bound to be different opinions of what 'folk music' is.

Maybe that's why out of the kindness of our folkie hearts, we allowed the mass media to define what would be considered 'folk music'.

That way the store clerks would know where to display the recorded CDs in those mass media supported, chain stores...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM

We had a thread recently about instances where some "folk" venues in the States was said to be discriminating against old-time American music - in other words, discriminating against what is (along with blues) the major form of American folk-music.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

The American folk music known as bluegrass is alive and well here in the U.S.

Many festivals, jam sessions, performing acts all playing bluegrass which many years ago was dubbed folk music on overdrive.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Auggie
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 02:56 PM

My favorite flavor of US folk is the acoustic singer-songwriter variety. Here in the midwest it's alive and well, at least from the audience stand point. Those trying to earn a living doing it may obviously have a different perspective.

From a totally selfish point of view, I find advantages in the fact that it hasn't reached a level of popularity on par with country music or Pop or Rap or Rock and Roll. There aren't too many other musical genres that afford you the opportunity to see your all-time favorite performers in intimate settings for reasonable prices, and then, likely as not, be able to talk with them afterwards without running the gauntlet of security, promoters, backstage passes,etc. Jazz perhaps, shares this distinction as well. And again, from a selfish perspective, I'm thankful I don't have to pay these people what their art is truly worth to me, or I could never afford to see them.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:00 PM

That Azizi was exactly what I was gettin' at.
Besides what goes on in our small musical communities, that Baez image, and Pop 'soon-to-be-icons' like Britney Spears, this is what is known in the U.S. I'll admit it seems big here on the Cat.
The last real flowering of 'Folk Music' was in the Sixties ("coffeehouses with lines around the block").
The last time people paid any attention to Blues was in the '90s with guitar driven music like Stevie Ray and Jonny Lang, which given the talent of both, is NOT what the Blues is about anyway.
There are various 'grassers' still playing and keeping it visible, like Ricky Skaggs and Union Station, but if you ask most fans of it today who Ralph Stanley was, they'd ask "Who?"

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:01 PM

I've tried looking for traditional Appalachian or UK/Irish music here in vegas and I can't find anything. There is a folk-dancing group that someone on the 'cat pointed out. Mostly what I find is "acoustic nights" or "singer-songwriter sessions", and those are not really my cup of tea, though I might go in case someone breaks out a whistle or starts playing a jig. Los Angeles is sort of far away to go to a concert ... this is one thing i miss about living in the San Francisco Bay area.

Teresa

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:29 PM

Because the U.S. population covers so many ethnic groups, there are just as many types of folk music being preserved as there are ethnic communities. It depends on where you live, and if there are groups in your area preserving this music.You may never be exposed to many of these types of music if you aren't in the right place at the right time. As Joe points out, it is not propagated by the mass media, and you have to look harder for it. Then you have folk music that is not part of any particular emigrant ethnic group. So, it's all there: Polish music, Irish, Scottish, Caribbean, bluegrass, old-timey, you name it, not just the type of folk music the mainstream media latches on to when they latch on to it at all.
An interesting phenoma is the attention given to a particular type of folk music after it is shown in a major motion picture, or in another form which reaches a mass audience. Witness the wider interest in roots music after O Brother Where Art Thou was released, and in sea music after Master and Commander's release. There IS a wider appeal to folk music once people are exposed to it, though it will never be as popular as pop.

You might want to see the Alan Lomax documentarty on traditional music up and down the Mississippi. Someone help me here please...what is the name of that? "Deep River Of Song" I believe.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:32 PM

"The last real flowering of 'Folk Music' was in the Sixties ("coffeehouses with lines around the block"). "

Sorry Christ, but many people actually think that folk music was "de-flowered" in the Sixties

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:59 PM

Some of what's going on around here. There is more.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: thespionage
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM

Where is Pocatello?

I'd like to speak on behalf of the folkies who were not alive in the 1960s, although I'm sure many of us wouldn't have minded being there. I happen to love nearly anything that is called folk music here in the US, from Woody Guthrie to PP&M's recent album. I am 19-years-old and I play guitar, banjo, and dabble in mandolin. I love to sing the old stuff. Although my close friends don't necessarily share my love for the pre-60s folk music, they absolutely *love* Alice's Restaurant, Bob Dylan, and Simon and Garfunkel. We *do* exist, and we're just freshmen in college!

As for the New York region, I know that Roy Bookbinder (who sings '20s-'30s blues) is still hitting the small music and comedy clubs. There is a folk club in Massapequa and I can't wait to see Work o' the Weavers, the Weavers tribute group. Little Toby Walker is a little more like country, but he learned blues and ragtime guitar from the greats. To me, this is folk.

Folk Music *definitely* exist at places like the Clearwater Revival every father's day and on the ship Clearwater itself.

Not to mention hope for the future.

Russ
Practitioner of Thespionage and Folk Music

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:05 PM

Don't declare the death of folk music in the US yet, Chris. Like others, I'd really say that it may be more of a local issue than a national one.

In Albuquerque, we have an active song-circle, regular coffee-shop venues that welcome both the singer-songwriter types and the "sing somebody else's stuff" people, and we have acoustic jam sessions in bars and coffee houses, we have house concerts for traveling, less well known semi-professionals, we get Seamus Kennedy, Cathy Ryan, Gealic Storm, the Chieftains and other larger and smaller names, and we have. We also have very active contra dance, caili, and international folk dance groups.

C'mon down and visit

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:17 PM

Interesting, Ron that you should bring up that old situation.

The old commercial vs. traditional thing, I mean.

Folk music's greatest days of popularity was in the 60s because of the folk "scare."

the de-floweing thing is bunk. Folk music as entertainment opened the door to traditionalists. There are still some folk entertainers out there and people are having fun watching and listening to them. I still truly believe their audience far out numbers the traditionalists.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: elameno
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:21 PM

this is my first attempt to jump in one of what appears to be a variety of swiftly moving streams of discussion...i dig this site and look forward to participating more in the future.

with that said, i think in relation to this particular topic, it's beneficial to look at the words we're using and their meanings. "folk", plain and simple, is the music of the folks. people's music...the everyday joes and janes that work hard for their buck and like to unwind at the end of the day with a little music to soothe their souls.

defined as such, "folk music" will always thrive...it is ubiquitous. it just takes some digging to find sometimes if you live in an isolated area like the american suburbs where everything is of the generica variety...patterns repeated indefinitely for the sole purpose of efficiency and profit. in these areas, it's hard to find someone with the time, let alone the drive, to actively involve themselves with music.

"pop" is just whatever's popular, and we all know this comes and goes with the times (and the "folks")...and it seems increasingly that those times change all the faster in this modern age of mass communication and the whole notion of "staying ahead of the curve."

but even so, be careful in harsh judgment of such music, as "popular" merely indicates that it resonates with alot of people...the very "folks" that are described above. anything "folk" was at some point considered "popular" in the sense that it was liked and practiced by a majority of the people in a given community.

there is a difference, but only in terms of "style," which is rather tenuous grounds upon which to base an argument for or against something. we all have varied tastes and ideas about how music sounds best...allow others the same freedom to choose as you do.

find your voice and use it. everything else is periphery.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:25 PM

Don't misunderstand what I was trying to say Martin. What I said was not meant as a knock on the commercial end of folk music at all.   I do play a lot of traditional music on my radio show, but I also have a great respect for the commercial artists and music of the 1960's, and I think there are a number of great songwriters who are carrying on the folk music in a different vein.   Folk music is a living tradition.

When I joked about the "deflowering" of folk music in the 60's, I was serious.   Folk music was no longer the fodder of academia, it was back on the streets where it belongs.   More importantly, people were SINGING.   Folk music was participatory again.

I do disagree with your one point about "Folk music as entertainment opened the door to traditionalists."    It was the work of the collectors who gave the tools to what eventually became the Folk Revival.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM

Thanks, Ron.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 07:35 PM

"I know that Folk in the U.K. is more far-spread than in the U.S. It's unfortunately an ignored art here."

What's the down side to that?

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

I agree, too, Ron, but I think Martin has a good point. The folk groups in the 50's and 60's that achieved some measure of mass appeal, drew in fans who later acquired a taste for traditional music, performed both by revivalists and roots musicians. If it hadn't been for the big names that exposed people to folk music in the first place, they might never have opened that door and walked inside to seek out the traditional performers. Martin, do I read you right on that?

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 08:31 PM

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Elameno. Welcome to the 'cat. :)

teresa

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 08:32 PM

Basically, if you're living in the soulless suburbs, it's no good lamenting the fact that there aren't people with "the time, let alone the drive, to actively involve themselves with music". There are always going to be some other people feeling that way too, not many, but enough. Someone has to start reaching out and making music, that's all.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 08:58 PM

I actually sounded like I was whinging in my earlier post up there. Ok, I was, but that is not all there is to it, I realize. after all, I've found plenty of folks to socialize with when it comes to other interests, so I don't blame the community, even though that might be just one factor that's contributing to the dearth of folk music around here. The sort of music I'd like to hear live is just not played around here right now, and that's that. What will I do about it? I'm not sure yet, but I'm not going to lose hope. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:51 PM

I live in a region (southwest Virginia) where there is lots of folk music-- all I want and anytime I want it. Not only that, but there are a lot of original source musicians still playing and singing. There are lots of children and adolescents who are taking up traditional music also. Within a fifty mile drive of my house are 6 or 8 regular venues for folk musicians, dozens of long-standing contests for amateurs of every stripe. There are regular(daily or nightly) radio shows on commercial stations and a several great weekly programs on the public radio station.

I think it is largely a case of what you want. There is support for traditional musicians, but singer-songwriters and bluesmen would die of starvation in Smyth County. They could do OK, though, if they drive to the college towns.

If you've come up dry in your area, I don't think its a "national" thing.

Biglappy

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 10:11 PM

Pocatello is in Southeast Idaho, about 2.5 hours north of Salt Lake City on I-15. It's the home of Idaho State University, where losing at varsity sports is a (male) campus tradition. The women do okay.

In the 1.75 years I've been here I've decided that it's a well-kept secret. We have four seasons here at 4,400 feet, and sit in a valley between two ranges of mountains. If you want outdoor life, this is the place -- 86.4% of the people in Idaho do some form of outdoor activity, from active birding to hunting to skiing to snowboarding to fly fishing.

We get 17 inches or so of precipitation per year -- that's rain, snow, whatever. Today, January 21, the temperatures ranged from 19 in the morning to 48 during the afternoon -- and we had fog most of the day. Yeah, it can get MUCH colder than that, but it's rare. All winter so far we've had 12 inches or thereabouts of snow.

The cost of living is 14% UNDER the national average. I was able to buy a house that I couldn't have afforded anywhere else that I know of -- 4,000 sq. ft., two fireplaces, 2.5 kitchens, 3.5 baths, and beyond the backyard is a golf course.

Idaho is also a state that's growing very quickly. Pocatello has more housing starts ready for inspection since Oct. 1 than all of last year (fiscal year, that is, Oct. 1 to Sep. 30).

And, as I said, there's a fine acoustic scene. Last year was the first annual bluegrass festival here, too.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 01:25 AM

Commercial Radio here as it is, for Folk/Blues music, is a disaster. Unless you listen to the public access stations and College stations or Internet Radio, which I find myself listening to more and more nowadays...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:19 AM

Teresa, there's contra dancing and English country dancing in Las Vegas, so there must be jig and reel players. Go here.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:27 AM

Folk music (by most people's definition that inimates a "style" vs. a more narrow definition which demands "provenance") is HUGE in the USA...

-It has several publications devoted to it

-Festivals that are attended by much greater numbers than ever before

-Its purveyors are among some of the most respected musicians in the country.

-Musical instrument makers who cater to folk musicians are busier than ever before, creating better instruments than ever before (now it's no longer a Martin/Gibson world -- there's Collings and Santa Cruz and Huss&Dalton and Larrivee and Dudenbostel and Merrill and Lucas and Kemnitzer and, and , and,).

If EVER there was a time to grow up interested in this type of music it is now. Never in our history has so much been so accessible...

...Never before in our history have such small "acts" -- individual singer songwriters, small string bands -- had such access to a commercial world once held at bay by major record labels that held too much power and influence.

...Never before have the mysteries of musicianship been so readily and easily uncovered by the uncountable numbers of workshops, clinics, published materials. Things that I, as a budding musician in the 60s and 70s had no way of discovering if the accident of life hadn't placed me in the presence of those in the know.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:18 AM

I think the problem is with the "who" in the presumption of "folk" music. Most people here seem to be defining "folk" as either British Isles or British Isles descended traditional music. The opening post to this thread laments that Britain (England largely, as that is where most of the British posters reside, it seems) has "folk" but the US doesn't.

Polka bands are folk. Mariachi bands are folk. Singer-songwriters are folk. Shape note singers are folk. Bluegrass and new grass are folk. A lot of hip hop and rap music is folk which never makes it into the commercial mainstream.

That is the biggest problem I have with this forum. The narrowness of the definition of folk.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:27 AM

BTW, I should mention that Americans in general are much more inclusive about folk music than the British seem to be. The British are at the center of this "purist" folk music standard that is, I believe, inherently racist. You see this in the distinctions they draw between music they refer to as "folk" and music they refer to as "world" music (ie music of other cultures, but more often races of people).

It is this sort of language which, IMO, veils the true differences between "folk" music or "traditional" music (which used to connote Irish music, which connoted "the other" to English music) or "roots" music or "world" music. They are all euphemisms based on race and class, sometimes gender.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

#1-Don't post here if you have a problem with the forum
#2-I was saying that 'folk' (whatever type THAT may be) is not as visible as it used to be
#3-Any info or 'folk fans' I have found have been on the 'Net, and as big a world as it is, is still not THE world.
(And Lastly)#4-This is a discussion (GUEST), NOT a debate. Save it for the classroom junior...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:13 PM

Not that you are being overly defensive or anything chris'nightbird'childs. Perhaps you could tell us where you live in the US, so we can understand your angst about 'folk' not being 'wide spread' where you are.

I live in Minnesota, and we have tons of folk music here. As nearly every other American poster to this thread has pointed out, there is TONS of folk music in the US, though the Anglo American variety is now pretty obscure here just as it is in the UK.

That is what you are lamenting isn't it? A lack of Anglo American folk music?

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:27 PM

Then why didn't you say so instead of attacking me for pointing out what should have been in your original post to begin with?

Talk about shooting the messenger...learn to write with some clarity and respond with patience, will you?

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: s&r
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:46 PM

Enjoying and supporting the music of one's heritage is not IMO racist whether the music is rap blues folk flamenco zydeco or WHY. World music is just the music elsewhere to the place you live I would have thought.

Stu

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM

I should mention that Americans in general are much more inclusive about folk music than the British seem to be - that's the reverse of what comes across in my reading of the Mudcat, or my experience on the ground.

"World music" is a marketing term, designed to get round the fact that there are people who get turned off by the word "folk", and also as a way of bundling together a lot of different types types of music from all over the world, some of it folk music, but much of it not.

Insofar as some types of folk music, typically Engish, tend not to be accepted as fitting within the term "world music" that is generally a reflection of a certain prejudice against English music. I suppose that kind of prejudice could be called racist, but I rather doubt that was what was being implied by GUEST Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:27 AM (Incidentally,if you're the same as GUEST Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:13 PM , why not sign in as GUEST Minnesota in this thread? It's a drag having to chase back and copy and paste entry details, but without doing that for nameless GUESTs, it's tricky indicating which one is being responded to.)

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

Stu, thank you for the Ian Anderson definition of world music. He has oft been criticized for 'inventing' his 'marketing' term of 'world music' and being so stupid that he doesn't get what he is doing in the historic context of British imperialism.

"Folklore" was a means used by British and American academics--first as 'antiquities' scholars, and later as 'folklorists' and 'anthropologists' in particular, to destroy the cultures being bulldozed by British and American imperialism. These scholars 'saved' (many would say looted) folk songs as cultural artifacts from the peoples being conquered, in the same way that material cultural artifacts were stolen and put in the Smithsonian and the British Museum.

Not everyone thinks that was A Good Thing for the conquered peoples. So for Ian Anderson to "name" the indigenous music of the former and current colonies at all is considered pretty racist and imperialist by some.

Not anyone in this forum, mind you, but then, these are the "folk" who don't get any of this sort of cultural criticism anyway. Because they bloody well don't want to gt it.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:33 PM

Minnesota again?

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

I should say, the use of the word 'folk' I object to is the very way the original poster used it. He presumed we would all understand that he meant Anglo/Anglo American music to be the default definition of 'folk' as he invoked it in the original post.

There is a pronounced tendency among the Anglo and Anglo American dominant cultures to use the word 'folk' to describe 'our' music, and 'world' or 'roots' music to describe 'the other' in ways that veils the racial differences between us (folk musicians, who are white) and them (roots or world musicians who are of other races).

That is what I'm talking about. In Britain, there is a tendency among 'folk musicians' to refer to non-Anglo music traditions in terms other than 'folk', and to reserve the use of the word 'folk' to mean English or British music traditions. In North America, there doesn't seem to be that same tendency as much. Although as the original poster from the US illustrates, it isn't uncommon for some Americans to mean Anglo/Anglo American as the default definition, when they say 'folk' music. With the folk music communities I am immersed in here in Minnesota--from bluegrass to polka music to Irish traditional music to pow wow music to blues to klezmer--'folk' refers to the indigenous music traditions of any ethnic group that isn't popular or classical or jazz, not just the Anglo/Anglo American or as some people say 'British Isles' music traditions.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:48 PM

I think you've got it pretty well entirely the wrong way about, "GUEST,Minnesota", so far as the relationship between the terms "World Music" and "Folk Music" in Britain.

There's a tendency by some people to exclude British Folk Music from "World Music", but by and large this is by people who tend not to see British Folk Music as worthy of inclusion, and who see the term "Folk" as a term to avoid.

I don't really think many people who are into folk music here would even dream of thinking that the only folk music is that originating in these islands. Every sizeable folk festival is liable to have musicians and bands from other traditions. Some of the most successful bands over the last decades have specialised in music from elsewhere - Blowzabella for examplee.

As you say "folk' refers to the indigenous music traditions of any ethnic group", and that is how it is generally used, in my experience. (Apart from those who might say they hate "folk", and you find they are using the term to mean merely Morris tunes and Irish tunes and so forth and their American relatives, together with singers who sport guitars.)

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: curmudgeon
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:05 PM

To revert to the original post about a "folk scene" I might advise Chris and even "guest" to come to New Hampshire. We are a small waspish conservative ( some of them) state, but we have a wealth of diverse folk music at hand, to wit:
The Folk Show on NHPR is a mix of singer-songwriter, pop and trad "folk music" of all stripes

WUNH, the university radio station offers the following:

The Polka Party with Gary Szredzinski, the most accomplished accordion player I've ever heard; a mix of polkas, Polish and central European folk music, history, folklore, and customs.

The Pickin' Parlor - Blugreass at its best.

The Folk Show -- Jack Beard presents an eclectic mix of folk songs. Some years back he put together a recorded anthology of the music of the French-Canadian, Polish and Greek communities in NH.

Ceilidh with Roland Goodbody -- a great mix of Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English song, both trad and contemporary..

The Blues Show wit Bruce Pingree, the Dean of WUNH broadcasters. For over 25 years an offering of the best in blues by both white and black singers.

When I have more time, I'll tell you about the live music in the state -- Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:10 PM

I'd love to come Tom, it sounds great. We've got some great live and thriving folk music traditions represented here in Minnesota too.

I have to admit to being a bit baffled by chris'nightbird'childs' lack of music in his part of the world, which I thought was Philadelphia? There is a ton of great folk music around there too!

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: thespionage
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

I associate the term "folk music" with Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and those who followed in their footsteps. In the US, the full term would be "American folk music," but since we are in America we leave off the first word and let context indicate that we are speaking about the US. If we specify "Irish folk music" or "African folk music," then we know we are discussing those countries. It's the same as Italians calling the sport that created the Superbowl "Football Americano" and US citizens just calling it football.

If you want to be a Jack Elliot or a Bob Dylan CD in the US, you go to the "folk" section. Next to it will often be "world music," which is sometimes called "International folk" or something of the like.

I am not defending the use/misuse of the term "folk music," I'm just explaining the context. I call myself a folksinger because I play guitar and sing songs like Woody Guthrie and Arlo Guthrie, and Peter, Paul & Mary.

Russ

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:34 PM

Well, there are some concepts I'm trying to put my fingers on here.

When I read the original post on this thread, I get a sense in my own mind that what seems to be missing is the concept of "folk clubs." It seems when I read a lot of the UK posts, there are mentions of folk clubs.

In the states, you have music on the Internet, and you might have "music nights" or "acoustic nights" in some cafes, but that makes some music hard to find.

The states have a large geographical area with many suburbs. So, very much in general, the place you're likely to find specific folk clubs and organizations is in the bigger cities.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Also, I think that certain kinds of music "speak" to different people in very personal ways. I wouldn't deem that "racism"; simply personal preference. At least for me, certain types of music cause me to have a very emotional response. I like all kinds of music, but there are certain types that are truly my passion. I'm sure that's true of many people.

Teresa

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:50 PM

And when I think of "American" folk music, I think polka bands at weddings at a VFW in an Iowa cornfield, or pow wow music, or the acoustic jam Saturday mornings in local coffeehouses, or the local entertainment at a fall firehall booya, or a summer church picnic, or the mariachi music played in the 'Day of the Dead' parade.

Yes, I also think of Woody Guthrie, et al. While they and others are the commercial side of American folk music, they certainly aren't the heart and soul of it.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:19 PM

And just where might the heart & soul lie... Mr. Enigma? Not in Philly that's for sure.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: curmudgeon
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:19 PM

Hereis the second chapter of folk music in New Hampshire.

This state is rife with contra dancing. There are town halls and simiar venues all over that are the sites for old time dances to live bands and live callers. Most occur on weekends as working people have to live up to their titles and cannot carouse on week nights. The University hsts a Ralph Page Memorial Weekend every January. Page was a key figure in the preservation and promotion of this old style of community dances. Current patriarchs of this tradition include Dudley Laufman and Bob McQuillen.

The French-Canadian community has "soiress" al around the state where they get together and play tunes, dance and sing. One of the keepers of this flame is Lucie Terrien of Portsmouth.

There are at least two polka bands that I know of, mainly in the Polish tradition.

Dover has the Seacoast Irish Cultural Association that has a yearly festival and events throughout the year.

Anither event is the annual Irish Show, a fundraiser for St. Mary's School. These are the definitive community events, featuring both professionals and amateurs. They are a mix of of bagpipes, skits, songs, pageants, and always a goat.

More later -- Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:20 PM

GUEST, Woody might take umbrage at being labeled "commercial." True in his later years, but much of his work was done during his travelin' days.

Also, sitting here in Idaho in a city of 50,000 or so, I'd tend to agree with you about polka bands, etc. But I'd expand it to include the singing and strumming on the ranch porch on a summer night, or the group in the kitchen who are singing chuch hymns, and even the kids on the playground.

As for your casual dismissal of the term "folklore" -- what term would you use?

I sometimes feel about "folk music" about the way I feel about the folks who claim that St. Augustine, Flordia is the oldest city (1565) in North America or that Jamestown (1607) is or whatever -- conventiently forgetting about the pueblos or the settlements of the Pacific coast and even the settlements the English found in the East.

American folk music has taken from so many sources that it is developing (if it hasn't already) its own genre. Peel back the covers and you'll find African, Irish, Scots, English, German, Dutch, Cuban, American Indian, Subcontinent Indian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Caribbean, Hmong, Polynesian, and Welsh influences -- among a host of others.

American folk music, like the American cowboy, flourishes. You just don't see a lot of either from the Interstate.