 sj |
||
|
||
Are you stuck in a time warp?
|
|
|
Subject: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM I learn 10 -15 new songs a year, most very recently written but then I go to a 'folk club' and up gets a floor singer who churns out stuff he was churning out 30 years ago and then in a very sloppy manner. It really brasses me of when this happens and I feel the paying audience is being short changed. It can only contribute to the decline of 'folk Clubs ' as fee paying venues for artistes. had to get it off me chest. or should I show greater tolerance? Yes I ought. O K , I'll go to the bar next time. Now how does 'cocaine blues' go? or 'Gandy Man' |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: beetle cat Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:43 AM Thats what new people are for. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM Ya... but when was the last time a folk club saw a new person... |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Jim Tailor Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:46 AM Well ranted, breezy. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Bert Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:46 AM Oh Ho! You should go to a songwriter's club. There's always one or two who have only ever written three songs. Sheesh! I make it a rule to sing at least one song that I haven't done before at that venue. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:57 AM Always new faces at mine, including new performers. So I want to keep each one coming back. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM I'll bet if you were to ask them about it they would say their songs were "classics" with a "timeless quality". |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Bert Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM But it's not too much to ask a folksinger to learn a repertoire of fifty or so songs. That way they can introduce a new one each week. Get out there and learn some new stuff yer lazy buggers *BIG GRIN* |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: The Beast of Farlington Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM "I learn 10 -15 new songs a year, most very recently written but then I go to a 'folk club' and up gets a floor singer who churns out stuff he was churning out 30 years ago and then in a very sloppy manner. It really brasses me of when this happens and I feel the paying audience is being short changed" Each to their own I say, it takes different types to make a folk club work and not everyone likes a whole evening listening to songs they don't know. Why shouldn't he sing what he wants to sing and how do you know that the audience is being short-changed - or is it just your opinion? (which you have every right to hold but lets not mistake that for the audience's opinion). If you are used to singing your stuff to a different audience you shouldn't be too surprised if folk club attendees sing stuff that is older and traditional. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,out of touch Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM do floor singers still do "Blowing in the wind" and "Universal Soldier" ? |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Jim Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:12 PM I'm afraid so |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM Stuck in a time warp? I never really thought about it before, but yeah I guess so; along with everybody else who spends countless hours of their precious time answering threads in a vain attempt for recognition, soliciting responses to dogma and soft challenges that go nowhere and merely accentuate our need to be heard in a small way, to justify our perpetual fear of being stuck in a time warp. The opposing view may also be true to varying degrees within the realms of understanding. Are you with me? Regards. Sidewinder. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: PoppaGator Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM To some folks, if a song is "very recently written," it ain't folk. A completely traditional repretoire is fine, *IF* the performer has the talent and creativity to bring some kind of fresh approach that effectively "keeps the tradition alive" by renewing/reinterpreting well-known numbers that *could* be old and tired in less capable hands. The availability of a traditional "database" of well-known tunes is absolutely necessary for group sessions or jams, especially those that welcome newcomers. For solo performers (self-accompanied singers), on the other hand, it's more important to be able to offer something new -- new arrangements and interpretations of familiar favorites, at least, if not completely new compositions. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Jim Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM How can we possibly be stuck in a time warp - look how we got to grips with this cutting-edge technology! |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM Ever heard of the term "timeless?" Some songs are timeless, and I never tire of singing them. And apparently people don't get tired of listening to them because they ask for songs I've been doing for 30 years (as I do when I hear other performers. Most new songs (including mine) will turn out to be "disposable." They too have their value. It's good to have a mix of the two. If you are a performer and not just a musician the audience will let you know what they want to hear. They'll probably want to hear some of the old songs, and welcome new ones, too. Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Jim Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:27 PM Anything "new" that I learn to play & sing usually dates back at least 50 years. As far as I'm concerned, if someone performs an "old" song and I've not heard that person perform it before, then it's new, and (often, though not always) fresh as the day it was written. Last week I sang "The Very Thought of You" for the first time. The reaction from the audience was certainly not one of "Oh no, not that song again" There are some wonderful time-warps out there. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM and Wild Rover well it was a request from a new member, and I wany him to come back yes, recognisable songs a tunes that are familiar are valid. This year I've revivied Blowing too and when a young lad of 18-19 asked about it and complimented me on it I felt justified. Havent done Universal since 1971, So theres a thought, as long as it doesnt sound like a cover of him who shall be nameless. To the beast, hello when the whole audience walks out to the bar, then that is a statement. Its a lack of respect on the part of the singer towards his audience, even worse when the opening introduction is along the lines of 'I dont know what I'm going to sing' So why bother to get up to perform.? Boy this has had a few hits already. btw my clubs meet on Fridays and Sundays in St Albans Herts Eng for anyone interested. At The Royal British Legion I try and support local sesions and clubs too, I feel it is part of being in touch, so I know where and when I'm going to hear rookie performers but its those who have been at it for years and years and are still 'rookies' that leave me thinking that they are costing us potential paying audience members. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: the fence Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM I try to perform at least one new song everytime I go to our local folk club, but such is the pace of life these days that it can be difficult to always do that. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Amos Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM SIdewinder, No harm in communicating -- you can communicate from the present into any point of the past, but if you are really stuck in the past your communication suffers dramatically. But at some level we are stuck in time warps or we wouldn't be glued down tothese damned meat vehicles. A |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Peace Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM "I never really thought about it before, but yeah I guess so; along with everybody else who spends countless hours of their precious time answering threads in a vain attempt for recognition, soliciting responses to dogma and soft challenges that go nowhere and merely accentuate our need to be heard in a small way, to justify our perpetual fear of being stuck in a time warp." You and I gotta split a splif fer sure. WOW! |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: jacqui.c Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM Maybe the answer is a mix of 'ancient and modern'. It's good to hear old favourites, especially when the audience knows them and can join in the choruses. I heard from an acquaintance who went to a Maddy Prior concert, expecting to hear some of the old songs. She spent the whole evening doing new songs that promoted her latest concept album. A lot of the audience, it seems, were very disappointed. It's also healthy to have some fresh new stuff as well, but that has to be kept in proportion to the rest. When Eric Bogle did his UK tour in 2003 he managed a good mix of old and new - that shows that it can be done, but the performer has to make sure that they keep the performance up to an acceptable standard each time - probably not so easy if you're doing the same songs night after night.... |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:35 PM Curiously some very fine songs have at different times pretty much dropped out of general repertoire (usually due to being over-used shortly therebefore) and I am starting to make a particular effort to bring some back as they are now so rarely heard. I think I'll add "Blowing in the wind" and "Universal Soldier" to the list I really must do that with. When Jacqui and I first started doing "Farewell Nancy" it had almost dropped out of sight - but now about four people locally do it. And when we started doing "Rolling Down to Old Maui" people were saying how obscure it was. Babies, bathwater, etc. Something does not have to be "new" or "different" to be worth doing (but having said that there usually is a twist in my versions somewhere) |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:40 PM Amos you either get it, or you don't; and it doesn't really matter either way.Just make up your mind and be happy in yourself and criticism cannot offend you; if that is what this thread is for? Brucie- we seem to get along fine.Albeit, with the odd disagreement here and there. Which, to be honest, is how it goes with most of my buddies and I tend to like it that way. Great to hear from you again! Best Wishes. Sidewinder. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Bert Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:41 PM I think that what Breezy is getting at is that communal silent groan from the audience who are all thinking "Oh my Gawd, here come Bert again, which of his three songs is he going to sing THIS time?". It's a valid point. There are singers like that out there and it's not wrong to encourage them to learn something new. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Peace Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM Sidewinder, Our disagreements have been tifs, that's all. I enjoy the way you write and your sense of humour. You have a wry wit which I appreciate, and I don't doubt that we'd get along well in real life. Heck, this place is part of real life and we get along just fine. Later. Bruce |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Jim Tailor Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM I'm reminded of two bits of video to which we've been "treated" in the past few years... The truly horrendous "Folk Scare Reunion" (My own title, not the real one) that PBS put together and Judy Collins and the Smothers Brothers hosted. I was stuck somewhere between tears of laughter, tears of pity, and projectile vomiting at that'n. It proved beyond at dounbt that the 60's music, sans context, and sans worthy interpretation, is not, in fact, timeless. The other is A Mighty Wind which showed us in very unkind terms that our notion of timeless was self-delusional. Still....."The Very Thought Of You"? ....yeah, some things are timeless. *grin* |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Wrinkles Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM I was the resident performer for the Sunflower Folk Club for over two years, doing an opening half hour before the floor spots, raffle, and that night's headliner. I'm proud to say that I never did the same act twice and I *would* have felt I was shortchanging the audience if I'd churned the same tunes out week after week. My job was to be entertaining; therefore new tunes and new patter and as little repitition as possible. Then again, the regular audience had favourite tunes and songs, which they'd request almost every club night, I'd have been a mean selfish sod not to have given them what they wanted. Floor singers are another matter altogether. Some are visiting musos, but the rest are not entertainers of any stripe, just Joe/Jo-ess Bloggs out having fun with their mates and probably have only the one tune in them anyway. Sometimes the motive for the audence requesting them isn't the quality of their music, but just that they happen to be a popular person in that club. I don't expect an entertainer's attitude from floor spots, but I do from the musicians I've paid to see! |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Leadfingers Date: 26 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM It doesnt help when you hear a song that interests you , but when you ask the singer who wrote it , you get an abusive reply !! I suppose thats just Breezy's way of making sure no one gets any thing from the same sources he uses . |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Bert Date: 26 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM ...probably have only the one tune in them anyway... That's fine for beginners. There's still nothing wrong with encouraging them though. First it's just to get them up on the floor, then you introduce them to new stuff. But as breezy says - after 30 years!!! I should be pointed out to them that there's about 9000 songs here on DT. It can be done nicely - "Hey have you seen THIS WEBSITE - lots of good new stuff there". The Bucks County Folk Song Society in PA have a different theme every month. It's great, if you can't find a folk song that fits then they are delighted with any song especially if you have to write one for the occasion. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Gedpipes Date: 26 Jan 05 - 02:10 PM I do like Bruce's sense of fun. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Peace Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:11 PM If you meant me, Gedpipes, thank you. However, it was that 'sense of fun' that had me in the principal's office at least once a week as a student. Now, I am a teacher--and it's cut back to once every TWO weeks. When I worked as a singer/songwriter I always sang other people's songs, too. And some traditional stuff. I had access to about 200 songs at any given time, fifty or so of which I had prectised 'recently', and the other 150 with which I had good comfort. I think young or new musicians or performers need encouragement while they 'learn' the art/trade. I think too that paying audiences deserve the best ya got, regardless of what 'level' that best is. Much of the rest is a process described by Darwin or Lady Luck. Bless you all for keeping music alive. BM |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM Its those who have not developed in 35 years that I'm on about. Evolve . Its great to have songs requested. Must learn 'American Pie' sometime. But if I hear 'Candy man' or 'Cocaine Blues' one more time ............. dont worry bout deadringers , put it down to distraction and compound deafness. and a.d.h.d. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM To address the original question... No. I was there then. I'm here now. Old songs are good. New songs are good. Why be limited to one or the other? |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Cluin Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:24 PM There's a whole pile of songs I'd like to drop from the sets. But they just get requested and we end up doing them anyway. "It's just a jump to the left..." |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Snuffy Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:40 PM When you go to a weekly club, and you know that the same 5 songs and the same 8 morris tunes will be served up by the same "performers" every sodding week, it does tend to make you a wee bit jaundiced. Don't matter if they're out & out Trad or singer/songwriter stuff - after a whole year you're begging for Wild Rover or Athenry instead. Having done 57 consecutive weeks to the start of December, I decided I owe it to myself to have a bit of a break - I've missed 3 of the last 8. And do you know what? The Miles to Dundee and I'll Tell Me Ma and a few others have not troubled my mind for a single moment. Great, innit? |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:03 PM well I go folk clubs most weeks and I haven't heard candy man - I think since the the 70's. Count yourself lucky you have someone who can play it in your gang. However if he can play that all right, he should be able to play pretty much anything, in the three chord lexicon of a million folk songs. Tell the silly sod straight - play something else - I'm getting flashbacks of a former life when you were interesting. Has anybody heard that shit hot version of Cocaine Blues/Angie that Paul Downes did on one of his albums. the mans a genius - gold and silver in his fingertips. Love the guy! |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Grab Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM Yep, heard him do it at a gig the year before last. Good gig too - Paul Downes and Show of Hands together. He's a very impressive player, although I don't think he's as good a songwriter as some others. FWIW, if you're after a combination to do with Anji, Hit the road Jack works pretty well. Mind you, there's so many songs using that descending bassline that you're hardly short on options... :-) |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:23 PM Having said that, I apologise. Chris Smither played candyman tonightat the Mac in Brum. Mind you it was the John Hurt version rather the Gary Davis one. If Chris knew what anguish it causes sensitive souls like yourself, I'm sure he would desist. Mind you it was a request from the audience. Perhaps your mate was there. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 28 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM yeh my a minor rundown medley goes angi,hit the road jack, sixteen tons, summertime, sultans of swing, he was a big upstanding bantam cock ah the fun we had - not sure about the audience! |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 28 Jan 05 - 04:54 AM Paul Downes played for my club last year and provided a very entertaining evening, he is underatted as an individual artiste and he performs up there with the best of guitarists e.g. Steve Tilston Anyone doing any George Papavgeris material where you are? Jez Lowe? Dan Mckinnon? Tommy Sands? Robb Johnson? Ben Campbell? |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Flash Company Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:54 AM My singing days are long past, not enough breath anymore, however, thirty or so years ago I used to try to sing a varied repertoire of traditional, modern and rubbish that I had written myself. The problem was, I had performed a few songs which people could not forget, so when I got up, someone would always say 'Sing The Dinghy',or 'Johnny'. In the end, it becomes a kind of flattery, you do it to please them, but it pleases you to be asked. I do see where breezy is coming from though, there are still performers like the old guy in 'Lark Rise' who always sang 'The Outlandish Knight'.... Badly! |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Pete Jennings Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:31 AM Interesting thread. I still play Cocaine Blues, Candy Man and even I Know My Babe. Don't see them as being hackneyed or time-warpy, even though I understand the sentiment. I only do floor spots but I keep a record of what I've played and where, so I don't repeat my self too often. I learn a few new songs (some of them old!) most years. Sometimes the old ones hit a chord (er..!): I played Cocaine and Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound at the Red Lion in Brum a few weeks ago and got a good reception for both. Pete |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:39 AM Stuck in a time warp? I never really thought about it before, but yeah I guess so; along with everybody else who spends countless hours of their precious time answering threads in a vain attempt for recognition, soliciting responses to dogma and soft challenges that go nowhere and merely accentuate our need to be heard in a small way, to justify our perpetual fear of being stuck in a time warp. The opposing view may also be true to varying degrees within the realms of understanding. Are you with me? Regards. Sidewinder. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:45 AM Not me. I'm happy to report I'm now actively trying to learn songs from the 80s. ;o) |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Jim Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM "Count yourself lucky you have someone who can play it (Candy Man)in your gang. However if he can play that all right, he should be able to play pretty much anything, in the three chord lexicon of a million folk songs" It ain't necessarily so.... there are those who practice diligently a very limited number of songs, often using the "play by numbers/master the tab" approach to rise above the usual level, but who certainly avoid a more casual broad-based "wing-it" approach, or shy away from innovation. Singer-songwriters who hit the road to promote their songs/style also (by choice or necessity) stick in a narrow groove. Each to their own, but I agree with the original point made; though 'churning out stuff he did from 30 years ago' is not limited to floor singers. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:07 PM Brum is and always has been in a time warp!! Even the great Harvey Andrews cant escape. At least he continues to write and has appeal. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: PoppaGator Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:10 PM Having resumed playing fairly recently after a long layoff, my repertoire, such as it is, *is* in a time warp. My relatively brief career as a full-time busker dates back to the early 70s, and I still play pretty much the same stuff as then (which includes numbers I had begun learning in '63). A good number of the songs I do have never been widely known outside the hardcore folk-and-blues community, so casual listeners don't always *know* how dated they are. In fact, people have often assumed I had written some of the songs myself. (Although I once aspired to become a songwriter, I've never written *anything* ~ nothing I ever judged to be worth completing, let alone performing.) I had been wondering which "Candy Man" had been under discussion as being an example of the kind of tired and hackneyed song that prompted this thread. To my mind, John Hurt's CM is not a "version" but an entirely different song than anyone else's. For that matter, so is Sammy Davis Jr.'s... |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,PhilP Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM I can agree, and disagree with a lot of the above. I "came back" into folk clubs only in the last few years, after last going in the late sixties. Most of what you regulars would call old and hackneyed songs, I actually hear as new songs (to me !), and they are ones I will learn and play back when I do an occasional floor spot - each making their debut. However I do make a point of doing different songs at each venue, and generally not repeating anything. The thing I find most confusing is that it tends to be the unaccompanied singers who keep repeating the same songs, as against accompanied songs where people try different songs most of the time. Anyway a good song done badly is still a good song, a bad song will only be forgotten very quickly |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:59 AM Stuck in a time warp? I never really thought about it before, but yeah I guess so; along with everybody else who spends countless hours of their precious time answering threads in a vain attempt for recognition, soliciting responses to dogma and soft challenges that go nowhere and merely accentuate our need to be heard in a small way, to justify our perpetual fear of being stuck in a time warp. The opposing view may also be true to varying degrees within the realms of understanding. Are you with me? Regards. Sidewinder. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM Yes indeed and The Tremeloes version of Candyman - sadly neglected . whens the last time your club booked Brian Poole. These legends of the aural tradition they do get neglected. Breathes there a soul so dull, that he can play candyman and not The Manchester Rambler? I take it, you have met him......from your reply. well its along and dusty road, and a hot and heavy load, the folks that you meet ain't always kind......nobody told you a life in folk music was going to be easy. all the best Big Al Whittle |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: breezy Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM a good song, sung badly is a good song murdered IMHO Thus, is not the delivery more important than the content? Time for a new thread? 'the singing ref' is a fine example of someone returning to the folk scene after a lifetime away. He returned with what he was familiar with then, today he sings the songs of today after spending 18 months listening to the best writers around and seeing them perform. his repertoire has a fresh appearance. He has transported himself in time from 1968 to the present Tomorrow , Sunday 30th Jan he will be performing at the Spotlight Club in St Albans. and if he dares sing 'The Gallant frigate Amphitripe' or 'Cant help but Wonder where I'm Sound' then I'll know he's had a relapse. Maidenhead Folk Club Songwriting contest end of March. Entries now being recieved. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM For what its worth, I've just come home from a Planxty concert and all but three songs were from their first three albums, all pre 1975 ... and all two thousand or so in the audience loved it, as best I can tell. |
|
Subject: RE: Are you stuck in a time warp? From: twoeyes Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:36 PM An extract from the "What is wrong with being a purist? " thread that I think might be of relivance to this one:
and another:
We thrive on diversity, both old and new and yes - hearing the Wild Rover from Breezy again does get people joining in, or squashed cats.... I have to say despite the possible interpretations of some of the postings I have found both Windward and the St Albans Sunday Nights at the Legion to be diverse and accepting of old, new, experienced and inexperienced, and breezy is always encouraging. |
| Share Thread: |