Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully

Subject: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

I am working on a project that deals with first person accounts of child abuse, bullying, and such things--I am looking for traditional/folkloric songs that relate--narrative ballads are OK, as are songs that embody the emotions--"Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child" comes to mind--any suggestions are welcome--remember that, for aesthetic and practical reasons, the music must be traditional--Thanks!!!

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:44 PM

That rules out "Song of Martin Gibson", written in this century, which is a pity because it rhymes "all my thoughts are wooly" with "I was born and raised a bully". Which is rather clever.

A

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM

Well, anybody else?

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:07 PM

Sorry, Ted, but some of us just can't resist showing how clever we are. In that vain I'll suggest the traditional sea shanty "Bully in the Alley."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:08 PM

Barry Finn sings an incredibly brutal ballad about Andrew Rose, a seaman viciously tortured by his Captain. The captain was hung for his crime.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:11 PM

Sorry, Ted, that was uncalled for in your thread. I'll chew on it and see if I can come up with some. Bully of the Alley isn't really one, is it?

A

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM

Please PM me the song Amos.... it's missing from my collection...

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:24 PM

Not first person but - The False Fly ballad is an interesting one in this context.

Regards

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

Ted, there are a lot of songs written about child abuse today.
I've heard them but not taken them in. I'd be interested to know what Mudcatters come up with.

Bully of the Town isn't exactly about child abuse but I bet a re-write could be done on it.

"I have seen the bully, the bully of the school,
I have seen the bully, and he's acting like a fool,
We don't need the bully of the school.

When the school bell rings it's call
The bully's waiting in the hall.
I can tell, he' raising hell
And knocking kids against the wall."

Anyway, something like that. It's a good topic to write and find new songs about.

Frank

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:37 PM

Ted:

Bully In the Alley is not about a bully in this sense, now that I look at the lyrics. It is about a bully boy, meaning a sea-going hand.

Bully in the Alley

It's a help me, Bob, I'm a bully in the alley,
Way, hey, bully in the alley!
Help me, Bob, I'm a bully in the alley,
Bully down in shinbone al!

Sorry.


A

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM

Liverpool Lullaby is the one that first comes to mind, but it's not traditional. There's this thread on abuse to women. I thought there was another thread that included "Liverpool Lullaby" and other abuse songs, but I couldn't find it.
What's that Clancy Brothers song about the babies? - Weela Wallia. Follow the links connected to that one, and you'll find lots.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:15 PM

"She stuck the penknife in the babby's head.... Weela etc.". Yeah, I guess that counts!

Regards

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:16 PM

The Captain's Apprentice , collected by Vaughan Williams in 1905 from Mr James Carter, Kings Lynn in Norfolk.
The song tells of the vicious beating, torture & murder of a ship's apprentice,orphaned and taken from the workhouse by the captain. The captain warns others not to do likewise as he waits in Newgate for the hangman's noose.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM

I remembered a thread like that as well, Joe--and I couldn't find it either--Interesting re-write, Frank--

As I said, I need traditional for practical and aesthetic reasons--Aethestic, because I want people to be generally familiar with the songs, and use them to illuminate my first person accounts--Practical because I want to be able to use the material in a variety of situations without worrying about performance rights and clearances and such things--

Don't need things to be first person, and, as I said, don't need them to necessarily be narrative, just need stuff that has a degree of familiarity and is evocative--

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:38 PM

Fanny Blair. I know she is supposed to have led him on (an 11-year-old girl), but that excuse is a far too common one to be credible.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Susan of DT
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:21 PM

There are lots of Child ballads with various forms of abuse: Prince Heathen (#104), Long Lankin (#93), Mary Hamilton (#173), Kemp Owen (#34), Two Sisters (#10), Cruel Brother (#11), Banks of Vergio (#14), Mill of Tifty's Annie (#233), Willie's Lady (#6), Annachie Gordon (#239), Lucy Wan (#31), Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin (#277) to name a few for infanticide, fratricide, dragging a pregnant woman behind a horse, a father who orders his daughter stripped so the husband can rape her, incest, enchanting into loathsome form or to perpetual labor in childbirth, and so on.

I'll look up which one has a married woman trying to seduce her nephew and crying rape when he refuses - he is then broken between horses as punishment. That is Child Owlet (#291).

Ah, I love these ballads...

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: phil jl
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:19 PM

I seem to recall that the Testimony Of Patience Kershaw deals with child labour in the mines in the mid 1800's. The song was written in the 1960's I think but I can't recall who by.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: sixtieschick
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:31 PM

Do old blues songs count? Bessie Smith and Billie Holliday sang in "Tain't Nobody's Business if I Do":

I don't care if my man hits me;
As long as he don't up and quit me.
Tain't nobody's business if I do.

I swear I won't call no copper;
If I'm beat up by my poppa.
Tain't nobody's business if I do.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:36 AM

Joe,

The other thread that mentioned "Liverpool Lullaby" was the alcoholic one.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:35 AM

Mike Seeger, on his Southern Banjo Styles CD, sings a song that starts out:

"My name is Uncle Jarred; I'm from Tennessee.
"If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree!"

and ends up:

"If you don't believe that old bully is dead,
"Look at the hole in that bully's head!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:54 AM

"Late last night I was makin' my rounds,
Met little Sadie and I shot her down.
Went back home, went to bed,
Forty-four smokeless under my head."

                      --"Little Sadie"

No motive given, but easily inferred.

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

Interesting contributions, all--Every suggestion is a great help--I have been doing some listening and thinking, as well as a lot of shuflling through the music collection--keep them coming!

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:30 AM

Well, if "Little Sadie" is in the ballpark, then "Pretty Polly" "Omie Wise" and "Banks of the Ohio" might also work ??

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: gecko
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:31 AM

There are quite a few songs that would probably be suitable in the 'Songs of abuse and domestic violence against women' thread posted by John of Brisbane a couple of months ago. Blue clickies are beyond my scope or I would attach the actual thread for your convenience!
Yours in Unity
gecko

Subject: Lyr Add: TUO KAUNIS KALERVON POIKA (from Kalevala)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM

The following rune song tells a part of a story from the Kalevala- the story of Kullervo, which deals with the effects of child abuse. The hero of that story is sold away into slavery as a child and abused by his foster mother/mistress.

Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika
Kaupattih on Karjalaha
Vienahan Vienäjän moalla,
Kahtee kattilah ranihe,

Viiteh viikate kuluhe,
Kuutee kuokan ruopivohe.
Tuo kaunis Kalervon poika
Jopa noin sanoiksi virkki:

"Kulla työllä uusi orja,
10 Roavolla rahan alaini?"
Pantih lapsen katsojiksi.

"Syötä lasta, syö itseki,
Katso lasta, kaiva silmä."
Syötti lasta, söi itseki,
15 Katso lasta, kaivo silmän.

Jopa noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja.
Roavolla rahan alaini?"
Pantih nuotan soutajiksi.

20 Hänpä näin sanoiksi virkki:
"Soutanenko veän takoa,
Vain souan asun mukaha."
Vetäjä on Venarin poika,
Perimies Pelasen poika

25 Hänpä noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Mikä siitä soutajasta,
Kuin ei soua veäntakoa,
Kuin soutaa asun mukahe."

Souti hankat hajalla,
30 Levitti lesen venehen,
Katajaiset koaret katko.

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja,
Roavolla rahan alaini?"

35 Pantih häntä tarpojiksi.
Hänpä noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Tarponenko veän takoa,
Vain tarvon asun mukahan?"
Vetäjä on Venarin poika,
40 Perimies Pelosen poika,

Jop' on sanoiksi virkki:
"Mikä siit' on tarpojasta,
Kun ei tarvo veän takoa,
Kuin tarpou asun mukaha."

45 Honkan varreksi hotasi,
Pani poajen tarpomeksi,
Tarpo nuotan tappurahe,
Vejen velliksi sevotti,
Kalat liivakse litsotti,

50 Kalojah hän käsin) kantoi.
Itse noin sanoikse virkki:
"Kull' on työllä uusi orja,
Roavolla rahan alaini?
Pantih hänt' kasen ajoho.

55 Leikkai puuta kaksi, kolme,
Itse nousi kannon peähä:
"Kuni huuto kuulunohe,
Sini kaski koatukohe,
Älkä vesa venykkä,

60 Älkä kanto kasvakka,
Olen hyvän ottakka,
Vain älkä terävän tekkä
Kasessa Kalervon poijan."

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
65 "Kulla työllä uusi orja,
Roavolla rahan alaim?"

Pantih häntä paimeneksi,
Viijen vitan vartihaksi,
Puun kaheksan katsojaksi.

70 Mäni päivä männiköllä,
Kului päivä kuusikolla,
Vieri vehnä koivikolla,
Karkasi katajikolla.
Jo emäntä koista huusi:
75 "Aik' on syyvä uuven orjan,
Ravita rahan alaisen."

Veti veitsehe kivehe,
Karahutti kallivoho:
"Syöjätär paha emäntä,
80 Kiven leipo leipähäni,
Vehnän peälitse veteli,
Vejin veitseni kivehe,
Karahutin kallivoho."

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
85 "Millä maksan naisen naurun,
Naisen naurun, piian pilkan,
Emännän pahan piännän?
Millä jaksan, sillä maksan."

Jo emäntä koista huuti:
90 "Mist' on paimen pillin soanut,
Rautivo rahasen torven?"

Jätti lehmäset leholla,
Maion antajat aholla,
Hatasarvet hoavikolla,

95 Kultasarvet kuusikolla,
Ajoi köllit kotihe,
Karhut kirjokartanohe.

"Oi sie entini emäntä
Tule lehmies lypsämähe,

100 Roavahis roavittamahe,
Vaikeitas valuttamahe!"
Mäni lehmies lypsämähe,
Roavahia rovittamahe,
Vaikeita valuttamahe.

105 Susi peällä suimastihe,
Karhu peällä koamistihe,
Jalan reijestä revitti,
Keän katkoi kalovehesta,
Kiskoi karvat kinttuloista.

110 Hän noin sanoiksi virkki:
"Oi Ukko ylijumala
Eli toatto taivahini,
Nossa pilvi luotehesta,
Toini kohta koilisesta,

Oi Ukko ylijumala
Eli toatto taivahini,
Nossa pilvi luotehesta,
Toini kohta koilisesta,

115 Tapa sie Kalervon poika
Rakehilla rautasilla,
Niekloilla teräsnenillä!"
Hänpä joutu kuulomassa,

Itse noin sanoiksi virkki:
120 "Oi Ukko ylijumala,
Toatto taivon valtivoija,
Nossa pilvi luotehesta,
Toini lännestä lähetä,
Vihmu vettä taivosesta,

125 Mettä pilvistä pirota,
Jott' ei tukki tulta ottais,
Vänttä veäntäisi savuo,
Suurina sotakesänä,
Vainovuonna vaikiena."

130 Kuulin minä kummempia,
Näin minä imehempiä
Hämehessä käyessäni.

Hämehess' on härkä suuri,
Sonni Suomess' lihava,
135 Ei ole härkä suuren suuri,
Eikä ole härkä pienen pieni,
Keski lehmien vasoja;
Päivän lenti peäskölintu
Härän sarvien välitse,

140 Hätäsestä peähä peäsi;
Kuun juoksi kesäorava
Härän häntäluuta myöte,
Eipä vielä peähä peässy,
Härän hännällä lepäsi,

145 Siit' on vasta peähän peäsi;
Kesän kärppä keäntelih
Yhen kyntyvön sijalla.
Etsitähkö iskijövä,
Tahotahko tappajoa.

150 Läksi ukko iskemähe,
Palvani pitelemähe,
Virokannas viilemähe.
Härkä peätä heiluhutti,
Mussat silmät muljahutti.

155 Ukko kuusehe kajahti,
Palvani pajun nenähä,
Virokannas kannon peähä.

Ukko kuusesta toruve,
Palvani pajun nenästä,
160 Virokannas kannon peästä:
"Kuin mie tullen toisen kerran,
Soan verta seitsemän venehtä,
Satoa syltä makkaroita,
Satoa puutova lihoja,
165 Kuuta kuusi leiviskeä."

Siitä mäni toisen kerran,
Ukko hammast' hivove,
Palvani pitelöyve,
Virokannas viilömähe:

170 Sai verta seitsemän venehtä,
Sata syltä makkaroita,
Sata puutova lihoja,
Kuuta kuusi leivisköä.

Unfortunately, I have no clue what it translates to. (I don't speak Finnish or Karelian).

Subject: RE: Traditional Songs related to Abuse/Bully
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:10 PM

I was told that "bully in the alley" meant "too drunk to stand". Irrelevant in any case.