Tinkerman's Daughter

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:22 PM

torryquine

For a start I would probably refrain from singing the "Fields of Athenry" or "Willie McBride"!!!!

Some songs are really popular and its not so much that they are overused but rather that they are, if you'll excuse the expression, "butchered" by a fair majority of would be singers who have no concept of how they should be delivered nor have a singing voice to match.

There is technically nothing wrong with the songs and if someone sings a good interpretation/arrangement in a tuneful voice it would probably be welcomed.

However at the end of a very busy folk week, when someone number 25 proceeds to give a five minute introduction/background to a song that is very well known by all and then crucify's it by forgetting the words while reading off their well worn crib sheet! This tends to get the "Bloody Hell Not Again" reaction.

I personally don't sing the two songs mentioned above. The first because I sang it about three times a week for three years when I was in a band in Holyhead. and think I've probably exhausted my interpretations library for it! The second because I don't personally like it as it tends to be delivered in a "music to hemorrhage" by maudlin style. But that of course is only my opinion, many others quite like it.

I'm fairly sure that somewhere on the mudcat there will be a previous thread dealing with songs that are considered overdone and hopefully someone who remembers it can blicky it for you.

Good luck with the singing and welcome to an extremely rewarding pastime.

Regards

Chris

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: BobKnight
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:44 AM

Hi Annie - if it's any encouragement to you - I heard this song for the first time last night at Aberdeen Folk Club. So, if you wanted to come to the club and sing it, or indeed any other folk song from your repertoire, I'm sure you'd be very welcome. If you don't already go to the folk club, contact me at [e-mail] and I'll pass on details to you. You don't have to join, and sing around nights are free - no admittance charge.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,torryquine
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:59 AM

Hello, and please excuse my butting in. I am quite new to singing and extremely new to doing any research about a song I'd like to sing. Cilla Fisher's version was the only one I'd heard at all until 2 days ago, and I assumed that's how everyone did it. I hang my head in shame and will go off and research some more.

That said however, I have a question, and I'm not sure is this is the right place to ask. Someone further up the page has said this song is ruined for them through overuse. How does a person, new to going into bars and sessions etc., find out which songs are not going to have everyone in the room going "Bloody Hell, not again". Sorry again for butting in.

Annie

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: maeve
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

GUEST,Niamh Parsons, welcome to Mudcat. Thank you for adding your information.

I learned it from Cilla Fisher. I've enjoyed all of the different versions and tunes.

Maeve

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:14 PM

One variant of that prejudice in the UK is people who don't like ginger pubes. (Not me. By coincidence I even happen to be sitting here with a mug of Red Bush tea).

I've heard that song quite often in Scotland, usually sung in the singer's own accent, so I'd always assumed it was Scottish. Did most of those Scottish singers get it from Cathal McConnell, then?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM

We Americans like red hair. In general, it's beautiful.

I was shocked by an article which appeared in the Kansas City Star not too long ago, reporting that in Europe (or maybe just British Isles) people with red hair are disliked. One such person told of being spat on on the street for having red hair. (They call it ginger.)

Another man said he had left England for America and was very glad not to deal with prejudice red hair.

It is common to imply that redheads are bad-tempered or promiscuous.

My grandmother, who was born in 1888, told me of something similar. She was taunted and disliked by the other kids in her Indiana town. Then one day, a woman she had never seen before stopped her on the street and told her she should be glad for her red hair. It was beautiful and few people had it. That changed Grandma's whole attitude.

These attitudes don't seem to be explicit in 'The Tinkerman's Daughter,' but neither do I think it's 100% an accident that the faithless wife is redheaded.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,Niamh Parsons
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 03:39 AM

Just to put matters straight - Cathal McConnell suggested I find the song - I spent a year looking as it was not recorded by the author (Mickey McConnell) - and found a woman in Scotland sing it at a festival - I learnt it her way - on the week of recording it - I asked Mickey for permission - he was in the studio the same week making 'Peter Pan and Me' and he gladly agreed that I could sing it.
Then I discovered I had the air different (wrong) but continued to sing it that way - Mickey says he took the story from Siegerson Clifford's poem from his book 'Ballads of a Bog Man' but changed it round a bit.

Mickey was quite happy that there were two 'airs' of the song and I still continue to sing it 'my' way and he sings it 'his' way -

It's still very much requested everywhere I go. So Thank You Mickey for a superb song

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: mark142857
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM

If anyone want the chords to this superb song, I've worked them out and put the results on the www.ultimate-guitar.com website. I've also done Supermarket Wine, another Mickey MacConnell classic. Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:32 AM

I asked Tim about the tune he used. His comment was that it "came from the deepest recesses of my head!" i.e. he neither consciously borrowed it nor consciously composed it. Brendan Begley reckons the first line is familiar from an Irish language song - but the second part is different.

FWIW, I reckon the fist line bears more than a passing resemblance to that of An Binsín Luachra / Bonny Bunch of Roses.

Regards

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:36 AM

Listening to the MIDI file, I noticed a striking similarity to a song by that June Tabor recorded, "The Plains of Waterloo". The first two lines of the second sections are nearly the same. The first two lines of the first sections also have a similar sound, though the correspondence there is less pronounced.

Is this a case of someone "creating" what they really remembered subconsciously from somewhere else? I know when I've done this, I tend to then overcompensate with innovation (as it sounds to me happened here: the remaining parts of the tune seem forced rather than organic.)

And can someone clarify: does the MIDI file correspond to McConnell's version or to Clifford's/Dennehy's? And did Dennehy borrow the tune or compose it?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Stewie
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:11 PM

Info on purchase may be had at Mickey MacConnell's website:
CLICK HERE.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From:
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:14 PM

Can someone please, please tell me where I would obtain a recording of a Mickey MacConnell album, which included the songs "Tinker Man's Daughter" and "Where Only the Rivers Run Free". Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the album and I lost my copy years ago when moving house.
Thank you!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From:
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:23 PM

I am a very old man and have listened to and sung a great many ballads in my life. Unfortunately over the past decade circumstances have made a prisoner of me but one night about a year ago I escaped those circumstances and got - I say 'got' because it wasn't as simple as 'went' - to a real live session and there I heard for the first time the Tinkerman's Daughter. It was love at first cite - if I may abuse that verb for effect. The song? Yes! I truly fell in love with it but there was more to it than that. I created me a rough-hewn, vibrant red head who was greatly ill-done by and I nurtured her lovingly in my consciousness.

These days I never get to Listowel; those bloody circumstances! I'm sure if I could I would look for that poor, desolate old man and he and I could sit in a corner of that pub in Listowel and ruminate on our respective feelings for the tinkerman's daughter. As for the lady herself, I know if I met her I would leave myself penurious spending the fruits of my labours on potions promising me youthful reinvigoration!

My politics incline me to sympathy with The Travelling People but twice errant members of that fraternity have buggered up my driveway and charged me plenty for doing so. It's hard to blame them when you realise how we, the settled folk, treat them. Anyway, now the red-headed Ann has created the conditions in which I could well be swindled for a third time!

Mickey Mc Connell for Pope!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:08 AM

I've heard this song sung - oh, hundreds of times - in English folk Clubs and it is a marvellous song, a great little story, but it has become one of those songs that has been near ruined for me by overuse and what I find particularly annoying is why is it that Brit singers as soon as they get hold of a song like this they feel compelled to render it in a bogus Irish accent?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:58 AM

Mickey

Just think of me as a bloodthirsty ballad-lover! Your song is of course - like many others of yours - a fine song in its own write (sic).

Regards

Martin

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: chordstrangler
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:46 PM

Murray, you would be as welcome as the flowers of May....M

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:07 PM

Mickey it is great to see you here on Mudcat again. I swear I am going to make the pilgrimage to Listowel before much longer ...

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: chordstrangler
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:42 PM

I wasn't going to contribute to this thread until I read Martin's reference to my poor song being referred to as a "Reader's Digest" ersatz version of the original and a bloodless precis of Macbeth. Ooooh...that hurts a little.
Let me put the song in context. It is true that the song was written many years ago as a result of a bet with my wife. Because it was written as a bet I never really rated the song that much. I have long been of the belief that if you take your ideas only from one person it is stealing, if you take it from many people, it is research.
So it is really somewhere between stealth and research. Of course the song is based on Sigerson Clifford's poem, but was written to be a little bit more singer friendly. In any event, I forgot about the song for a fair number of years and only resurrected it when people began asking for it at gigs and folk festivals.
Murray is right. Niamh did take the song and change the air. I thought that was a bit of a shame because it robbed the song of some of the tension that resulted from the semi-tones. However, it proved popular enough and I'm delighted at the success it eventually achieved.
I don't play in the Listowel Arms anymore but can be found far too often in John B. Keane's pub in Church Street where I would be delighted to meet with any wandering mudcatters and join them in strong drink, weak music and much late night divilment.........Mickey

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:46 PM

Eoin I have heard you singing Tim Dennehy's version a few times and its one of my favourites. Any chance of hearing it sometime again soon or are you concentrating on Co.down songs these days?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,eoin o'buadhaigh
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 04:14 AM

Well stated Martin, the version by Tim Dennehy (that is,the original by Sigerson Clifford) is by far the better version. The story is complete in that version, were in Mickey's song I feel there are gaps. Only my humble personel opionion of course, BUT isn't everyone's opinion personel. THEY ARE BOTH GREAT SONGS!

(a 'humble')
    eoin

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 03:56 AM

My favourite is here http://www.lastnightsfun.com/a_dubh.html . Click on the 'mp3' about mid way down the page. Sorry it's towards the end of the song, but it gives an idea.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

Random Good Song Refresh ...

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 03:31 AM

Guest

We're not disagreeing - just looking at things from a slightly different angle!
As Niamh says in your link;"Mickey McConnell took that poem, kept the story and wrote a song from it. He never uses even a line from the poem but he used that story to write a whole new song. But Sigerson Clifford's story continues, to say that a tinker comes on the farmer's land many years later and as he threatened, the farmer kills the tinker. When he has shot him dead he discovered that it was his son by the Red Headed Ann. He kills himself and the ghost of the tinkerman's daughter is seen walking along the road. That was so heavy it couldn't be put into the song but that's how the story really ends"

So Mickey's song is one (very good) sung adaptation of Clifford's poem. Tim Dennehy's is another, sticking word-for-word to the original poem. Of the two, I much prefer Tim's. That's all!

Regards

p.s I always admired the Lyrecrompane reference! Wonderful placename!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:52 PM

If youclick here, Martin, you will read that Micky didn't use a line from the poem by Sigerson. He wrote a whole new song. That is original, I'm afraid.

I remember when he wrote it, and I know what he did. The tune, before anybody says it is an old JS Bach piece, was also written by Micky. He plays in Standard tuning, with a 'Third Hand' capo on the first fret, G and bottom E strings not covered.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:35 PM

Here's a link to a thread with the long version.

Regards

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:20 PM

The original was a poem by Sigerson Clifford. Have a look at the threads mentioned earlier. As to the tunes... I'm not sure I can separate them out at this hour of the morning!

Regards

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST, Someone who knows
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:16 PM

I don't know what you mean by the 'original', and Micky's 'version'. Are you saying that Micky didn't write the 'original'?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:04 PM

I'm afraid that, competent as Micky's version is, it always feels rather like a Reader's Digest, ersatz version of the original, to me. Bit like a bloodless precis of Macbeth.

Regards

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST, Someone who knows
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 10:28 PM

No, Murray. Not Cathal.
I'll send you a PM when I'm back from where I'm at; all cookied up and rearin' to go!!!!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:58 PM

Guest Someone who knows, I am indebted to you for your contributions. It isn't you Cathal is it ? OR IS IT ? SO Listowel, the Arms Hotel it is, now that the INS have granted me freedom. Barry Finn, how about a trip over together?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST, Someone who knows
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:18 PM

Very quick John!
The answer to your question Murray, I would think, lies in the relative anonymity of Micky as a performing artist. He is known for more 'famous' songs like 'Only our rivers', but more for the writing than for the performing; though I must say that Micky is a very entertaining performer, and his own renditions of his own material is second to none.

Niamh Parsons is, on the pther hand, a 'name', and although Micky did record a CD in Colm Sand's studio (as far as I know), where he laid down most of the stuff including Peter Pan & me, the album would hardly have been as widely distributed as Niamh's would have been

However, if you should ever be in the town of Listowel, Co. Kerry on a Saturday night, pop into the Arms Hotel.
He could well be in the corner with a crowd of people around him enjoying the songs and the craic.

Stay and have a pint.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 07:43 PM

OK I will buy that too. So my question now is, why does Niamh Parsons change the melody, and why does everybody else who sings this song imitate her version instead of singing it as Micky McConnell sings it? Surely any competent singer can sing four consecutive notes each a semitone apart ?

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: John Wood
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 01:19 PM

I heard that explaination too from someone.
Greetings John.

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: GUEST, Someone who knows.
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 01:12 AM

I can assure you all that Micky MacConnell wrote both the lyrics and the melody.

The purpose of the song?

His wife asked him to write a song where he had to rhyme Lyreacrompane with something.

I kid you not!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Mar 00 - 11:34 PM

The short version is, Dick, but not the long one, which is much closer to the original poem, and by far my favorite. I've also posted the tune to the long version, hint, hint.
Just in case you don't have anything to do in your spare time. And I think, if you follow the blue clicky thing above, you will find the tune for the short version as well.
Curiously, putting "tinkerman" in the search box got me only "Red Haired Anne" but by using "tinker*" I got "The Tinkerman's Daughter." Aren't computers fascinating?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Mar 00 - 10:12 PM

It's in DigiTrad

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Mar 00 - 03:37 PM

We had two threads (at least) going on this. I refreshed the one and here is a blue clicky thing to the other, with the tune. I'd like to know the answer to Murray's question, too, and someplace around here, I have the original poem, too, if any would like to see it.
Had an interesting conversation with Rick Lee when he came out west recently. He maintains that the two versions of the song tell the same story, whereas I beg to differ. I know they came from the same source. But I heard the long version first, and I didn't find in there any indication that the the maid was given away or sold, or that she it was someone else's bad judgement that caused her to grieve. I kinda thought it was her and the farmer's own bad choice... though I don't think the poem tells us. Just "He stole her from her tinker kind, and on the morrow they were wed."
The short version of the song has her father trading her for a pony.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Mar 00 - 03:10 PM

This is a resuscitation of an ancient thread, I know, but my question is, did Mickey McConnell write the tune for this song? I know he adapted the words, but is the melody traditional or composed ? I would really like to know the answer to this, because the melody as sung by Mickey McConnell and the melody as sung by Niamh Parsons differ fundamentally at a critical point in the song. I have always assumed that Niamh Parsons was singing it "wrong", but maybe not? (I certainly prefer the way McConnell sings it)

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: lynn
Date: 23 Feb 97 - 04:34 AM

thank you!

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 97 - 04:20 AM

The Tinkerman's daughter was written by a man called Sigerson Clifford, from Kerry in Ireland. There are at least two song versions of it around

Regards

Subject: RE: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: Priscilla Wintermute
Date: 16 Feb 97 - 10:41 PM

You might try looking for it on a Jean Redpath recording. I could swear I heard her singing it some years back.

Subject: Tinkerman's Daughter
From: LaMarca
Date: 16 Feb 97 - 11:14 AM

This is for Lynn from another thread - The Tinkerman's Daughter is a setting of a poem; don't remember the author. It was recorded by Cilla Fisher and Artie Tresize on their tape "Reaching Out", and by Rick Lee on his album "Natick". I think Rick Lee gives the source in his notes.