Why I Hate Folk Music

Subject:
From:
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:06 AM

A friend sent me a piece from the Canadian Globe and Mail with an interview of Greil Marcus (the rock music critic for Rolling Stone, who has written about Bob Dylan's Basement Tapes, etc.). In the interview he says that what gets him started is a phrase or a tone or a little something in a song. Recently he was listening to "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" -- a song that has always bothered him -- and he says that it finally hit him that the phrase, "When will they ever learn" epitomised the self-righteousness of folk music (he thinks the phrase should be "When will we ever learn"). And that, he says, is "Why I hate folk music". I thought this was profoundly stupid, and thought I would compose a reply and send it off. Anybody have any thoughts that might improve a non-self-righteous response?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:38 AM

No, Peter, all I could think is he is 'profoundly ignorant' of folk music, which still sounds self-righteous. Maybe we need to revive the thread, 'what is folk music' and email him a copy. ... or send him a copy of the thread, 'Where Is Spancil Hill' and he may see the beauty and depth behind music made by just plain 'folk'.
alice in montana

Subject: RE:
From: Dani
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:50 AM

Someone should invite Bob to hear Pete Seeger sing. When he leads a crowd in this song, the final verse is always , "When will WE ever learn." Not many would accuse Pete of self-righteousness. That usually applies to a person who is afraid of getting their OWN hands dirty. Pete's are pretty dirty!

Subject: RE:
From: Dani
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:52 AM

Oops - foot in mouth. We're talking about Greil, not Bob. I should have known better. Sorry! That's what I get for being self-righteous myself!

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 10:40 AM

I don't know if it wrong to be self righteous, at least to a degree. It is usually a reflection of having values. It is intolerant self righteousness that I can't take. And what does Greil prefer to folk music? Mindless pop? Escapist crap? If enjoying music that attempts to relate the stories of people, or cause people to examine their perceptions, or give a little historical perspective, or make one laugh out loud at some silly thought, or inspire one to attempt to make a difference in the small part of the planet in which they live; if this is self righteous, then count me in. I stand convicted. And his comment about Pete Seeger shows that he is, at least, guilty of not doing his homework, and perhaps a shallow windbag.

How's that, Peter.

And Alice, was the "Spancil Hill" thread not one of the best ever? I still want to know what happened to Frank McGrath. As I have said before, he gives us an amazing piece of musical history and disappears. You don't suppose he was just a bit of programming that got lost in the great crash, do you? :-))

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE:
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:00 AM

Mick

Frank is still around - just seems to have other things to do at the moment!

Regards

Subject: RE:
From: Bert
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:04 AM

It was written as a political protest song. The whole point was that SOME people (warmongers for example) wouldn't like it. The fact that it is a great song and people keep singing it might (in some peoples opinion) make it a folk song by now. It certainly wasn't folk when it was new.

Bert.

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:14 AM

I agree with Bert, which is why I think the critic is ignorant to condemn all folk music based on that song.

alice

Subject: RE:
From: Mike T.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:19 AM

Those who acclaim themselves as "critic", are only expressing their own opinion, and just like (you know what) everybody has one. They fill the void of insecurity in themselves by being critical of others. It has a medical name (which I can't think of at the moment) and We all have it to some degree. In cases like Marcus it's probably terminal.
I agree with Alice, 'Profoundly Ignorant' ........

Something as nit-picky as "they" vs "we" In a song as great as that one? Huuummm!
Scuse-a-me! Being self-righteous myself, I just get a little up-tight when I have to deal with that type.

Mike T.

Subject: RE:
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:27 AM

These are much better responses than mine. I was going to pontificate about how the song is really more about weariness than protest -- the sort of endless cycle of humanity (they are we). I have always assumed that it is popular because it has that universal quality, rather than a "stop war now" flavour. I have never thought of it as an anti-war song (which does sound sort of weird when I actually say it). But everyone else here is making much more hard sense than my vapourings. I also missed Spancil Hill. Where is that search button!

Anyone else?

Yours, Peter

Subject: RE:
From: Earl
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:33 AM

I think the problem is that people who are not direcly involved, one way or another, with folk music are ignorant of the history, humor, depth, emotion, passion, and honest social concern discussed here daily. It is much easier to do what Marcus did use the cartoonish stereotype of folksingers as people who lamely strum guitars and sing whiney protest songs. "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" is certainly not in that category.

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:25 PM

Martin,

Thanks for the info on Frank. Tell the eejit (if you see him) that we miss him in these parts, and would like him to check in from time to time. :-))

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE:
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:53 PM

Even in letters to the editor, I think you catch more flies with honey than vinegar (to coin a cliche), so I wouldn't use the word "ignorant". After reading all the insightful comments above, my response would be,

I'd like to answer Greil Marcus's thoughts on Pete Seeger's "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" He uses the famous line "When will they ever learn?" to claim that folk music is self-righteous and that's why he hates it. However, he's not talking about folk music. He's talking about certain protest songs, which you might or might not classify as folk. Taken as a whole, the world's folk music is dazzlingly varied, historically rich, and sometimes even sophisticated. It's the roots of rock and an inspiration to many of the best rock musicians.

Also, in Pete Seeger's live shows he and the crowd sing, "When will we ever learn?" on the last chorus. (This is according to a friend on the amazing Mudcat discussion forum at .) I'm sure Marcus will be glad to know that he and Seeger agree about self-righteousness.

Finally, I admit that some protest songs are self-righteous and whiny. (I wouldn't describe "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" that way.) But anyone who uses them as a reason to "hate folk music" is going to miss a lot of beautiful songs. I hope that Marcus finds one that's witty and ironically self-deprecating [*], and that he says, "That's why I love folk music."

[*] This would be a good spot for an example. "Carrickfergus"? A blues song?

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:57 PM

Jerry,

Well said. Well reasoned and thoughtful, instead of defensive as mine was. You have hit it exactly.

All the best,

Mick.

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 02:14 PM

Peter... I have more time to respond now. Trying to fix a crashing computer, and just didn't get a chance to write much before.

As Jerry pointed out, diplomacy is more constructive than confrontation. I do think the critic is making a statement that shows ignorance of all folk music, because he is defining folk music as being like the protest song in this example. I am reminded of our thread on song topics we hate... whining lyrics, narcissim, these are some of the things that were listed as un-favorite. I think those elements may be what some people, perhaps like this critic, associate with folk music.

Although I think he shows ignorance of folk music, I would not write to him lecturing him, and accusing him of being ignorant. As Jerry pointed out, the critic should be exposed to the larger history of folk music from around the world, and that a very small portion of what many Americans call 'folk' were the protest songs of the American 60's.

I find it interesting that he is a Canadian. What does he know about the great legacy of Canadian folk music, I wonder?

gotta go... wish I had time to write more...

alice in montana

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 02:17 PM

ooops... maybe Greil Marcus isn't Canadian, although the article you quote is from the Canadian Globe and Mail.

alice

Subject: RE:
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 04:07 PM

Thanks everyone for your swift and thoughtful articulations, and especially Jerry for a draft(!) -- my current temptation is just to send him the URL for this site, but I will be drafting a reply. I will let you know how it turns out. Being a newspaper interview it has to be responded to fairly quickly. It occurred to me reading this that there are one or two recent self-righteous Dylan songs that I could weave into the mix. I guess I am more vinegary than Jerry's honey-tongued eloquence.

(And I don't think Marcus is Canadian).

Thanks again.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE:
From: Sheye
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 05:01 PM

Hey, Peter!

Le monsieur does have the right to define and condemn folk music as it fits in his ummm, comfort zone.

And we, in answering to the public comment of a learned music critic, can only explain how we (define? interpret? perceive?) folk music and why we love it.

warmest, Sheye

Subject: RE:
From: petter
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 05:16 PM

up yours

Subject: RE:
From: petter
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 05:24 PM

whats your name

Subject: RE:
From: northfolk
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:17 PM

Let's put this into perpective. A "writer", promoting music by simplistic formulation, designed to be sold consumed and forgotten, is knocking our music, that has weathered the challenge of time, by being passed from generation to generation. I wish we all had the resources and the media at our disposal...we don't. There is a purity in that too, that matches this music, which will be sung and loved, after the sanctimonious Greil Marcus has gone to his ultimate good...poisoning worms.

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:38 PM

Why did it take him that long to figure out what bothered him about "Where Have All The Flowers Gone"? Answer, could he have been so unaware of himself for that long. It finally dawned on him "as light dawns on Marblehead". I believe Pete was taking a stance & making a point. Did Greil take an opposing position or just think that the whole world felt like himself. I guess that he himself must be rock right & the generations of singers that sing folk music must fading voices of ghosts that are just blowing in the wind. What an overgeneralization. Barry

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 07:42 AM

I don't think folk music is self-righteous. In fact I find that a meaningless statement. I do, however, think the 60s were. I somethime feel uncomfortable about how right we thought we were and how we considered those who were against us as sub-human. Perhaps the reviewer feels that too. I certainly can see how, with the perspecitve of thirty odd years the "they" might grate a bit.

(On the other hand, I think we were right about Vietnam and Civil Rights.

Murray

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 09:17 AM

Murray, so true. A day doesn't go by that I don't regret the way my baby-boom generation threw out the values that kept families together. The counter-culture movement (and I participated) was a social experiment that failed, and we are reaping the bitter harvest now. Songs that promoted and sustained civil rights were great, but there were other attitudes, probably more promoted by rock lyrics than folk lyrics, that promoted the breaking of bonds that nurture children and families. (ok, off my soap-box, now)

Subject: RE:
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 10:34 AM

If self righteous means self aware, if it means an ever questioning perception of the world around us then folk music is self righteous. The ballads and stories that have been handed down through countless generations are the fabric of our history. We live our lives in story, some sung some spoken. If that line in that song hit a raw nerve with our critic friend maybe instead of condemning an entire genre of music he should ask the question why it affected him?

If he doesn't like folk music I suggest that anytime he receives a cd or tape in the mail to review he donate it to a local library or school.

Its of great consolation to me that when the critic is dead and dust that song will still be sung and remembered.

Dan

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 10:48 AM

Well said, Dan.

Subject: RE:
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 11:06 AM

If self righteous means self aware, if it means an ever questioning perception of the world around us then folk music is self righteous. The ballads and stories that have been handed down through countless generations are the fabric of our history. We live our lives in story, some sung some spoken. If that line in that song hit a raw nerve with our critic friend maybe instead of condemning an entire genre of music he should ask the question why it affected him?

If he doesn't like folk music I suggest that anytime he receives a cd or tape in the mail to review he donate it to a local library or school.

Its of great consolation to me that when the critic is dead and dust that song will still be sung and remembered.

Dan

Subject: RE:
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 01:12 PM

Thanks Alice, Didn't mean to stay it twice though. By the time I get this computer thing down we'll have brain implants and won't need them anymore. Oh well... Dan

Subject: RE:
From: wlisk
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 01:54 PM

Dan -Don't think twice, its alright. Bill

Subject: RE:
From: Sean Ruprecht-Belt
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 01:55 PM

Interesting thread here. I sometimes wonder where the popular perception of folk music and folk musicians comes from. True, some of the young participants of the 1960's folk revival came off as self-righteous, even (and I personally find this worse) precious. But balanced out against the raw, transcendent power of other well-known, influential performers... I don't get it.

If Mr. Marcus listens to Dock Boggs, Roscoe Holcomb, Howlin' Wolf or Leadbelly, who were all part and parcel of the folk tradition or more contemporary folks like Martin Carthy, Mike Seeger, Richard Thompson, or Robert Jr. Lockwood, I don't know how he can find objections to what he hears.

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 08:32 AM

I still can't put my finger on why I can feel twinges of symphathy with that reviewer. He certainly misuses the the term "folk music". I see a difference between, say Woody Guthrie refering to the mining bosses as "they", and, the use of "they" to mean society, as I think it does in that song.

I think Pete Seeger is the one who introduced that song to the folk revivalists and I certainly don't consider him a self-righteous person. In fact I would add him to Sean's list above. I sort of think that if he wrote the song rather than just sang it, he would say "they".

To get away from opinion for a moment: I think it is a beatutiful song. What is its history? I remember there was a German song with the same tune called "Es Tut Mir Leidt" ("I Am Sorry") with the same tune.

Which came first?

Murray

Subject: RE:
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 09:46 AM

Murray,

I've never heard of a German song "Es tut mir leid" (though I'll have a second look). Do you know more about it? However, there was a German translation of Seeger's song (yes, it's in the DT: Sagt mir, wo...) which I liked and sang before I knew what a folksong was.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE:
From: Ritchie
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 11:03 AM

I'm pleased that the reviewer said what he said because its created an excellent thread...now personally I don't particulary like 'where have all the flowers gone' but that's because I've never really listened to it..I've just 'heard' it !, I pigeon holed it along side 'Little boxes' & 'Daddy's taking us to the zoo tomorrow' but that's because of my different musical tastes & not because of the song..

A couple of years ago I saw Neil Young and he did a version of 'Blowing in the wind' which I 'HEARD' for the first time ,same song ..different me...

This could be the making of that reviewer..

love & happiness Ritchie Forster Newcastle Upon Tyne England Still listening and learning

Subject: RE: Self-Righteous in Folk Music
From: Greg Baker
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 12:49 PM

I've always liked folk music. I also am a political conservative-to-moderate, and a lot of the songs sung around the time of the Vietnam War were self-righteous and smug about the war. In particular, I've disliked Peter, Paul, and Mary for those reasons. They got a little bent when the grunts in Vietnam called the AC-47 gunships "Puff the Magic Dragon" - which is a backhanded honor from the Vietnam soldier. At least they were listening to PP&M. Soldiers will pick up tunes and sing them no matter what side they come from. Witness the popularity of "Lili Marlene" in WW2. Furthermore, both French legionnaire and fedayeen were singing "Ya Mustafa" in the Algerian War. Vietnam was a civil war as much as a foreign war, and among the losing side, there is still as sense of anger and resentment. One could say Lee Greenwood's "I'm Proud to be an American" is the equivalent of "I'm a Good Old Rebel." Come to think of it, the losers usually have better tunes than the winners in a war, especially a civil war. Often, the winner may take land, forbid the showing of the defeated side's emblems, and indoctrinate the kids in schools - but you can't stop people from whisting a tune.

Sincerely, Greg [e-mail]

Subject: RE:
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 01:44 PM

I think most of the reasons some the songs of the 60s could be considered self-rightous is because they were written by mainly young people. And as we know as you get older, it is only young people who Know they are right, or are sure about anything.

Sometimes they are right though.

Subject: RE:
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 01:48 PM

Well to add my humble tuppenceworth.
Folk Music is the music of the people. So the best of Rock and Rap and every "Modern" idiom will eventually be absorbed into the tradition and will relive in future times as "Folk Music".
Thereby; if Folk Music is crap - then all popular music is crap. I really cannot believe that any same person who understands the evolution of song and music would make such a statement.
Give the man a break - he just doesn't understand.
And it's always fashionable to be contorversial

AND

Ah Lads!!

Go easy on the praise please. Martin Ryan will verify that I'm only an ordinary chancer.
That story isn't mine. It's everyone's courtsey of Robbie McMahon. But thanks anway.

Frank McGrath
Nenagh Singers Circle www.geocities.com/broadway/a

Subject: RE:
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 01:55 PM

Well, Frank, as Mae West used to say, "You may only be the postman, but you have one hell of a delivery".

(The rest of the sequence goes --
POSTMAN: "Gee, Miss West, There's this parcel for you."
WEST: "Parcel, eh? Does that mean there are strings attached?")

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE:
From: Earl
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 04:45 PM

Marcus has been a rock critic for many years and as such he has to be aware of many types of "roots" music. They pop in and out of style so fast, Delta blues one year, Celtic the next, etc. However, it would never dawn on him to consider them folk music. Folk was that self-righteous thing that happened in the sixties.

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 10:09 PM

Wolfgang. I can hear the song in my head, but I can't remember who did it.

Shambles I would almost go so far as to say "often" in place of your "sometimes".

Murray

Subject: RE:
From: Ritchie
Date: 05 Dec 98 - 03:49 AM

There's an old saying which goes...

"There's nowt s'queer as folk"

and you know,I think they may be right.

Ritchie

Subject: RE:
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 05 Dec 98 - 09:02 PM

Just heard a wonderful version of "Mac the Knife" on CBC special piece on Kurt Weill - it was sung by Bert Brecht himself! ah! Weill apparently said, "there's only two kinds of music - good music and bad music." In the past, I'd have put that bit of wisdom in the same place I put the similar remark about "ain't never heard no horse sing" (variously ascribed) - in the garbage. Now I'm not so sure. I've always been, as it were, "tone deaf" when it comes to pop or rock. I hate the stuff, can't bear to listen to it. But I've read a lot of Greil Marcus (Mystery Train, etc.) and other writers on rock, striving to understand what it's all about. I'm no wiser after reading his stuff, I'm afraid (he's no Canadian, either - he lives in Berkeley). But I have an inkling of what he might mean about self-righteousness, which I interpret as sentimentality. I did a quick survey through Rise Up Singing, and the number of sentimental songs is quite astonishing. I'm thinking of stuff like "Aragon Mill" which I think is one of the worst, and almost all of Stan Rogers' oevre. I know the stuff is popular, and being a traditionalist, I don't think of any of this stuff is folk music (and sentimental is the last thing trad folk is), but Marcus & Co., particularly those people who only know "folk" from the bin labels at record stores (i.e. commercial "folk"), think only of this when they hear the word "folk". I must admit I haven't yet got a good working definition of "sentimental", but I think of it as emotion once removed, emotion conscious of itself and revelling in it (my partner Rika Ruebsaat says it's like drinking the wine, vomiting, and then drinking the vomit). Yuch! I would certainly like to see a return in modern songwriting to the hard-edged stuff made by Joe Hill and Ralph Chaplin of the Wobblies (and compare their images, such as "you'll get pie in the sky when you die", to the British labour movement's contemporaneous "the workers' flag is deepest red, it's shrouded oft our martyred dead". Sorry if this is so convoluted, but the subject is very complicated, and there's no theoretician I've found who's helped me understand it. I'd love to hear Mudcatters on this - it seems to me that Mudcatters do exactly what Marx said we ought to do - keep theory (writing about singing) and practice (singing) together. Good on you all! Jon the offsider

Subject: RE:
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Dec 98 - 02:52 AM

Good folks,

Rika's interesting graphic illustration reminds me of my old uncle: When he would run out o' booze he'd roam the streets of New York siphoning winos! He always had a good supply of "second hand Rose"

By God, I loved the 60s!! Proud of it! Yes, we were young---Yes we hadn't learned all we'd know approaching 60. That's obvious! No need to even say it. But at least we were alive and knew the wonder of full doses of testosterone and estrogen activating our minds and bodies. (Takes energy to make one an activist!) And striving to make a better world when we had the energy to do it was no sin at all. The only sin committed was a recent one---tossing out the baby of Socialism (the good aspects) with the filthy washwater of totalitarianism!

To all the kids: Glory in your youth and GO FOR IT. (And hope you have the health John Glenn has retained when you reach his age!) As Joseph Campbell was fond of saying, "Follow your bliss!" That means contrive any way you can to do the things you love most if at all possible. (Even be a folksinger instead of a...)

ART THIEME

Subject: RE:
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 98 - 08:08 AM

Well said Art.

I was going to reply in words but I decided to post a song instead, on a new thread HERE. The song says it better than I could in any other way.

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Dec 98 - 11:53 AM

And now you know why we love and respect Art Thieme.

And Jon Bartlett, great posting.

Mick

Subject: RE:
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 98 - 10:18 PM

I hate the way some folk songs make me cry and some make me laugh so hard that it hurts. Then there are those that make me afraid for all the good people and worried about all the bad ones. It's hard to be feeling so vulnerable and human and alive and dying and young and old at the same time.

When I sit in at a jam and look around the circle at those bright faces, all different, all engrossed in singing a tune or picking away at a stringed instrument, it makes me worry that this will end. I hate the way the session is over and everyone has to go home eventually. No matter how awesome it gets, it ends, dammit.

Another truly bothersome thing is the young outsiders who constantly get pulled in, take up an instrument and take over the music when the old-timers die off and leave the music behind. Why do the old ones have to die? On the other hand, it troubles me to think of no one carrying on the music.

I hate to think that all the joyful times I've had making and hearing music will never be experienced by most people.

And it completely freaks me out to even contemplate losing my hearing like Beethoven but being unable (like him) to hear the music in my head.

And then there are those sophisticated music critics who put down this folk music, making me frustrated that they just don't get it, don't see the beauty of simplicity and the timelessness of the music of ordinary people.

What about those concerts where everyone sits there holding hands and hugging, and then you find out that other people in the world are out there killing each other? And just when you start getting comfortable and the world looks like a good place again, along comes some folk song to point out all those things you had overlooked, making you uncomfortable again, even feeling guilty. Who needs that?

It's completely understandable why anyone would hate folk music and you'd think everyone would avoid it like the proverbial plague. When will they ever learn?

Subject: RE:
From: Bert
Date: 07 Dec 98 - 01:44 PM

Jon, Not trying to be critical, just trying to understand what you are saying. You quote....."there's only two kinds of music - good music and bad music.".....

Seems to me that there's a lot of mediocre stuff in between those extremes, some of which even came from The Sixties.

I would say that there is quite a lot of sentimentality in traditional folk. Here are a few lines that I can think of offhand.
...and we lowered him overboard and he drifted with the tide...
...I cried 'Oh Lord what have I done'
...by love's light my foot finds the old pathway to thee...

Art, I liked The Sixties, but I'm old enough to remember The Fifties as well. I think that's when folk music started for me.

Barbara Shaw, I think it's too late for me to start learning. Don't worry about no one carrying on the music, the good stuff will survive. That's why folk is good, the bad stuff got left by the wayside.

Get's me to a personal thought. Folk singers have a duty to sing the songs that they themselves like, whatever their age or origin. Then there will be less of the good stuff lost.

Bert.

Subject: RE how do you say the word cex
From: Jill Yates
Date: 07 Dec 98 - 04:05 PM

Subject: RE:
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 01:36 AM

Bert,

I remember the 50s too. I found what was called folk music during those years also. Very pleasant era if one was raised with blinders on like I was. Not much rocked folk's boats then. Everything quite pastel--even the music. Things pretty much took care of themselves. The big war was over. There was a joke then about the "Eisenhower doll"; You wind it up and it sits on it's ass for 8 years. (Nothing needed doing anyhow.) I graduated highschool in '59. Kingston Trio hit it big. But Pete, the Weavers (Almanac Singers), Aunt Molly Jackson, Woody & Leadbelly showed us that those new suburbs sprawling into the countryside translated into questions and wrongs that begged for answers and making the wrongs into rights--civil and otherwise. One thing led to another until we were also shown that this old world, and it's institutions, weren't as maleable as we'd once thought. (And some din't have the same dreams we had.)No matter. The more things change, the more they get different! What is, is!

No value judgments at all, Bert. Your mention of the 50s just got me to free-associating---and this popped out.

Art

Subject: RE:
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 03:52 AM

Whatever happens, the music goes on. I sometimes think if Cecil Sharp were still alive he'd turn in his grave, but then ... it's a living thing, it changes. Just like our great language (do you know there are more words in English than any other language? No shortage of mots justs) - look what happens when you plonk bunch of English speakers on the other side of the world and leave them for three or four hundred years (or a couple of hundred on the other other side of the world) - a whole rich new lot of words and usages, and a whole lot of old ones preserved that faded away at home.

Folk music is the same - you spread it about and it just grows and grows. To pick up on your point, Barbara, it flourishes very well in adversity. Do you know The Peat Bog Soldiers? Even in the worst conditions you can imagine, the Tradition is at work. Singing the songs, playing the tunes, keeps the faith. If things move you strongly and there isn't a song that expresses what you feel, write one for yourself.

Hark at me, I've gone all philosphical now, and it's only ten to nine in the morning!

Keep on truckin'!

Steve

Subject: RE:
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 01:20 PM

There's a danger I could be working on this msg all afternoon...there's a lot to respond to in this thread! Alice I found your remark about the counterculture to be odd considering the origin of this thread--one sweeping generalization begets another. What I learned from my youth in the 70's was to be open to possibilities that one's life could be different--the possibilities don't seem as limitless now as then, but it still does my heart good to know that they exist. Even though I'm not twenty-two anymore. I see both adults and young people all the time who take some inspiration from this philosophy, even if they don't know where it comes from.

Personally, I think "Aragon Mill" is a great song, and highly singable. I sing it all the time.

I see Stan Rogers' work as a mixed bag. A lot of it is really sentimental--and that stuff, such as "Lies", and "Forty-Five Years", tends to get more airplay because it fits radio formats more than his other stuff. Now there's nothing wrong with sentiment--many of those, such as "Free in the Harbour" are classics. (the ones that are about something, unlike "I'm trying to write a song and it really isn't easy" --you know what I mean) But others like Barretts' Privateers and Wreck of the Athens Queen don't have that "I'm a poet craftsman goddamit shut up and listen to me emote" feel to them--probably because they were written in a hurry rather than agonized over. Or started with a plot and then had a song written to fit it. That's a more likely way to get a folk song, methinks.

I still think Stan was one of the most influential songwriters of the last two decades--and most of his influence was positive. There's a lot to be said for craftsmanship and a work ethic!

That said, I share Jon's search for writing with a sharp edge--it's hard to find among the current explosion of Ani diFranco imitators. Not that Ani doesn't have it herself. But the irony is that one brilliant artist like her can spawn hundreds of imitators without the guts and vision. If I thought that was folk music, that would be why I hate folk music.

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing 2
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 01:41 PM

By the way, editor Peter Blood told me recently (he's sort of a distant in-law) that the forthcoming Rise Up Singing 2 (stop that shuddering Jon) will have a lot more "bawdy songs and drinking songs" than the first one.

The intention of RUS was not to be a definitive collection of folksongs, anyway--it was a collection of songs they (peter and annie) liked which could be sung in a group. But I guess they've heard the oft-repeated criticisms of the book as being excessively PC,(gee, maybe Greil Marcus has seen it) and are broadening the scope somewhat. (I don't know if they'll still do those sneaky little changes to lyrics which might be construed as sexist or racist by some). If the first book hadn't been so amazingly successful, nobody would care--but it has become a de facto standard text.

Bill

Subject: RE:
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 08:21 PM

THE FOLKSINGER'S WORDBOOK (Oak Publications) said much more to me than RUS. Recently I've been packing up to move. That means that it's potlatch time---ie. toss everything I won't use again! The first thing to go was RISE UP SINGING!! ALL (most, anyhow) of the songs I want copies of are in books and notebooks that are truly valuable to me. Good riddence to the rest...

I have never understood at all why my literature professors (and others) were/are so down on sentimentality. I love well-done sentimentality as much as I love the 60's ! Properly handled sentimentality (like Henry Lawsons work) can give grand insight during difficult times. Pricilla Herdman's __WATER LILY__ will ALWAYS be one o' my favorite albums---ever. I agree with you, Bill. (At least I think I do.)

Steve----There have been many times in my life that, if I'd been dead, I would've spun vigorously in my grave because of having MUCH DIFFERENT musical tastes than what was happening at the moment! Now, as I approach 58, I simply enjoy the panorama---marvel at the parade going by. It's all OK to me now. Que sera, sera... Sure is much easier to go with the flow. I was my own enemy for too long.

Thanks to Mudcat for being my shrink & lettin' me spew my spleen. Yuk, what a mess! Do wish my cats'd clean up after me like we do after them when they get rid of their hairballs! (Humor sure does help in my case; hope it don't get in folks' craws too much.)

You're all great folks. And with Dan Keding & Sandy here now, well, it's like sitting around the livingroom with no dishes to wash later.

Art

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 13 Dec 98 - 08:34 PM

I have yet to read a staff critic from any Canadian newspaper who was fit to review folk music. The reviews are generally full of howlers and breath-taking ignorance, whether they are reviewing trad singers/musicians or "folkie" singer/songwriters. I remember reading one in a Toronto paper, probably the Star, of the Cape Breton fiddler Natalie MacMaster. While generally quite favourable the reviewer thought that the step-dancing was a gimmick, which showed her profound ignorance of the musical tradition of that island.

"Folk music" to most of these urbanite reviewers (who purport to be able to review almost any genre of music) means suspicious rubes with rotten teeth and a rope for a belt, sneaking away from picking the banjo on the collapsing front porch of their shacks to commit indecent acts on their sisters behind the outhouse.

They should farm these reviews out to qualified freelancers.

Most rock and alternative lyrics I've heard are pretty self-righteous, and often just quite selfish, petulant, and juvenile. And of rap and hip-hop lyrics the less said the better. Of course they may accurately reflect a certain culture, but then so did The Horst Wessel.

Subject: RE: Really, really weird coincidence
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:17 AM

To get away from opinion for a moment: I think it is a beatutiful song. What is its history? I remember there was a German song with the same tune called "Es Tut Mir Leidt" ("I Am Sorry") with the same tune.

[e-mail]

How's this for a really bizarre bit of serendipity...

I was reading this thread because of this link posted by wildlone on the "Spaw's Greatest Faux Pas" thread. A short time later, while listening to the CBC radio online, I heard a recording of Marlene Deitrich (sp?) singing a song in German to the same tune as "Where Have All The Flowers Gone". I'm pretty sure the time frame for her singing that song was around the time of World War II. I didn't hear a title being given for the song.

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:30 AM

Carol,

The Marlene Dietrich version is called "Sagt mir wo die Blumen sind" It's in the DT here

Subject: RE:
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:35 AM

I guess I'm just slow enough to need to ask this question... So did she record it around the time I thought she did, or was I totally off the mark?

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 06:03 AM

Taken from this page:

Marlene Dietrich first sang the song in Paris (in French, as "Qui peut dire vont les fleurs?"), presumably for a UNICEF concert in 1962.

Her recording for French Pathé is dated May 1962. Her September 1963 Washington D.C. performance of the song (in English) was lauded by the Los Angeles Times: "The ovation was enormous."

Subject: RE:
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 06:31 AM

Well then, oops. But I still think it's a pretty weird coincidence.

Subject: RE:
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:41 AM

Should I waste my time thinking about why some rock head doesn't like folk music? It's useless to play the violin in front of an ox.

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:44 AM

Joan Baez also sings the song in German on an early lp. Re: Greils statement about folk music, I've often thought people who hate it can't separate folk music from folk politics,(usually liberal and left).You hate the politics you hate the music. Not being able to think outside your politics is a great way to miss a lot in life.

Subject: RE:
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:19 PM

Well, I've got an inkling what Marcus is talking about. There was a lot of folk stuff in the early to mid-sixties that I find a bit sanctimonious, Little Boxes by Malvina Reynolds being typical of the genre, with its rather smug put-down of the bourgeoisie. I believe this stems from Folk's prevalence and popularity among college students at the time. This type of folk music is a variation, and is oddly more dated than what we would call true traditional music, the lifeblood of Folk. I think Marcus is being carried away by his iconoclast impulses. There is a kind of elitism associated with traditional music and musicians, but I don't think this is what Marcus was talking about. By elitism, I am referring to the effort by many traditional musicians to maintain "purity and authenticity" in instrumentation and other aspects.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: DougR
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:04 PM

YEA! At long last, I agree with a Guest! "Not being able to think outside your politics is a great way to miss a lot in life." One would think that anyone who could come up with a line like that, should be able to think of a good screen-name to use on the "Cat."

DougR

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:58 PM

Yep, 'Profoundly Ignorant' just about sums it up; narrow-minded, uninformed people who make sweeping value judgements based on a miniscule--and marginal, at that--example of what they perceive a particular musical genre to be seem to my mind the least qualified to be in a position to disseminate their uneducated views publicly.

But that's just my self-righteous opinion! ;~)

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:37 PM

Ah, yes, but we have to decide what folk music is, before we can fully evaluate Griel Marcus's opinion of it. Let's put Griel Marcus to work, and give him a week to come up with an absolutely ironclad definition of the term "folk music" so that we can all know for sure just what it is that he hates, and why.

Let's see if Griel's brilliant mind can solve what no one else has been able to...that thorny question: "What is Folk Music?"

Then we can determine whether he has a valid reason to hate it.

If so, then he would be hating something of his own creation, namely his unique mental concept of what folk music is, and he would have only himself to blame for it.

As for "Where Have All The Flowers Gone", it is a song that could sound self-righteous, I suppose, depending on how it was sung...but it usually doesn't...not to me, at least...whether or not it uses the word "we" or "they". It sounds more regretful and mournful than anything else.

- LH

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: heric
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:16 PM

Sweeping over- generalizations which sound important or profound are the mainstay of rock critics. Can you imagine having that job? He thinks the song sounds a little better with "we" instead of "they." Pete Seeger agrees with him. Not much more for normal people to say.

I had the same problem with Imagine, with the line "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if *you* can." It always distracted me because I would think of that guy's net worth and spending habits and think that's a bit much for him to be saying to me. I thought it quite tasteful of Neil at the WTC benefit to say "I."

I wouldn't want to try and roll out the presses with this profound and important concept however. Being a rock music critic would be an awful job.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: heric
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:20 PM

That line became even more grating when John's significant other made headlines with the comment that she did not feel financially secure with a net worth of $300,000,000.00. When asked what would provide her with a sense of financial security, she said $600,000,000.00. True.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,'Nother Guest
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:49 PM

I'm so glad to see someone besides myself noticed that wonderful change Neil Young made in the song! At the point of hearing that, I began to cry--not because of overwhelming feelings about 9/11, but because he had made the song I had always objected to for the very same reasons as you, Dan, was suddenly made beautiful.

Just goes to show, an excellent interpretation can totally change who "owns" the song! IMO, that song belongs to Neil!

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:53 PM

I second EJ. I may agree with the politics, but politics and music are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 03:06 AM

Let me say first, in case I come under fire, that I'm not actually a guest. I'm just on my In-Laws' computer and don't want to go getting my cookies in their software. When I get home I'll look like a member again! (in other words, you can dismember me now, but please remember me later!)

On to my two sheckels worth. The weirdest thing about Greil Marcus's comment is that, as I define folk music, Greil Marcus dos NOT hate it. In fact, he has written pretty eloquently about traditional American music in the past, and though he may be guilty of romanticizing "the folk" a bit, he flat out does not hate the music.

I think what's happening is more a question of genre terms than anything else. He probably thinks of Muddy Waters as Blues, Roscoe Holcomb as old-time, the Carter Family as country, etc. "Folk" he probably reserves (as many Americans do, alas) for the earnest productions of 1960s singer-songwriters.

However, to assume profound ignorance on his part would be a mistake. In fact, Marcus is probably the best-known rock critic in America who expresses real knowledge of and sympathy for roots music. Smithsonian Folkways, headed up now by Tony Seeger (not only Pete's nephew but a brilliant ethnomusicologist and a pretty good picker), asked Marcus to contribute an essay to the booklet for the Harry Smith Anthology reissue.

If Marcus chooses to hate earnest singer-songwriter music, I can disagree but I can't call him ignorant. If he chooses to use the name "folk" for that music, I can call him misguided, even plain old wrong, but again I don't think it's ignorant; he knows many folk enthusiasts have a very different meaning for the word "folk," including ballads, blues, and ozark fiddle tunes. He knows traditional folk music better than most Americans, and likes it more than most Americans. For some reason, he's not including traditional music in the term "folk" as he used it in the "I hate folk music" article. I don't know why, but it's not 'cause he doesn't know any better.

Again, i don't want to make him out to be a hero. Some of the comments in the Harry Smith essay might offend you, others might leave you scratching your head in puzzlement. But none of it makes me think he's ignorant. In fact, I'd love to get him here on the 'Cat and hash the whole thing out with all of us...he may have some interesting, albeit misguided, reason for not including true folk music in the category he calls "folk music."

Steve W. (Nerd)

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: TeriLu
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 03:02 AM

Just wanted to let you all know that P.Seeger did a wonderful radio interview with Alan Chartok this past year on WAMC (90.3fm) in Albany, NY, in which he explained the history of the song in question. Apparently, he put new words to the German song on hearing the tune, and then sort of left it buried somewhere, not thinking much about it. A camp counselor came along and picked it up, and it became a hit with the camp crowd, and from there ended up with Marlene D. having a hit with it in Germany. It continued to go around the world, like "The Hammer Song", becoming popular all around, including in America. He says he was stunned with it's success. Don't quote me totally, but you might be able to hear the interview on the WAMC site.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 03:39 AM

That's where I learned it. In summer camp.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 11:41 AM

Interesting thread, and it's also interesting that it was only towards the end of the thread that I started to see comments that I agreed with. "Nerd" above is pretty much on the money as far as I'm concerned. My opinion:

I have read Greil Marcus, and while I don't always agree with him, he is one of the more pereceptive commentators out there on the subject of American "roots"-based music. His "Mystery Train" was one of the first books that really looked at the connection between older American folk and blues musics, and more modern pop music, including music by Elvis, the Band, Randy Newman, Sly Stone, and others. His "Invisible Republic" similarly looks at Dylan's Basement Tapes as they relate to older folk music traditions. Postings about what an idiot Mr. Marcus is only betray the poster's ignorance of Mr. Marcus's work.

Furthermore, I don't think Marcus should be required to come up with a universally acceptable definition of folk music (impossible task that it is) before offering his comments. When the rest of us reach agreement on the proper definition of folk music, I suppose we can justifiably criticize Mr. Marcus for ignoring certain work that we feel he should have considered before expressing his opinion. It's only a word, after all, and one that is defined in a variety of ways, as the many threads on this topic illustrate.

Finally, I do agree with Marcus that much of the politically-oriented "folk" music of the 50's, 60's and 70's was self-righteous to a fault. I happen to like "Where Have All The Flowers Gone?", but I have to admit that the line in question is a little hard to take. Evidently Seeger now thinks so too, or else he would not have changed it in his live performances; but even now, I think most people know it as "when will THEY ever learn". Moreover, in my opinion, "Imagine" is one of the most over-rated songs of the last 50 years. John Lennon was a great songwriter, but this was one of his lesser efforts, as far as I'm concerned. It's easy to whine about how "they" don't fix all the world's problems, while conveniently ignoring the fact that these problems are damn hard to fix, and if we really knew how to fix them, we would.

Anyway, I know this is an old thread, but I think some of us might benefit from a little more self-examination, and a little less knee-jerk defensiveness. Greil Marcus isn't always right, but there is some validity to his comments.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: TeriLu
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:55 PM

By the way, according to a documentary on PBS years ago, with home video shot at John and Yoko's home, Yoko wrote the poem, and John came up with the music to Imagine. she of course, gets little to no credit for it, and unless you saw this film, you wouldn't know it. FYI Happy 2002-TeriLu

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 01:08 PM

Whistle Stop and Terri:

Thanks for providing that wonderful balance that informed judgement brings!! Refreshing voices in the wind of bristling offendedness!

LEJ, you still write like an angel. I am waiting for that first book.

A

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 06:58 PM

Folks,

There is a great German recording of Steve Goodman's "CITY OF NEW ORLEANS". It, like Marlena's cover version ('62) of Pete and Joe Hickerson's "Where Have All The Flowers Gone", must have (according to your reasoning) been the original that, obviously, was stolen by Stevie. Gimme a break? No need . I'm taking one anyhow.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: toadfrog
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 08:09 PM

I almost added something to this thread, & am glad I didn't. GUEST Nerd said everything that needs to be said, better than I ever could have. You tell 'em, Dweeb!

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From:
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 08:28 PM

I have no definitive knowledge of the origin of the song, but it seems I heard it was Chezkoslovakian...mg

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 03:16 AM

Thanks, Toadie! :-)