Musical Roots

Subject: Musical Roots
From: Torctgyd
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:13 AM

Following on from the thread about the possible influence on Gospel music of the Gaels from NW Scotland one of the posters remarked that he would have liked the program to investigate the musical culture of West Africa where the slaves came from.

This made me think. How can musicoligists say that because the music of West Africa now is as it was 250 years ago? Might not the music of this region been 'contaminated' by missionaries from the very same area of Scotland (or the southern US for that matter) bringing their lining out to the native populations. Not just that but the 'contamination' from influences from all over the world via religous practices, radio and television and the introduction of new instruments.

We cannot be certain, for example, how Mozart's works sounded, or how he meant them to sound even though we've got the written scores. How can musicolgists talk about what was, or wasn't done, around the camp fires hundreds of years ago in the African bush? Just look at how many versions of songs and tunes there are from the British Isles and most of them are no more than 150 - 200 years old. This illustrates how quickly changes come about in oral traditions even in, what was at the time, the most advanced and literate nation in the world (possibly!).

Are similarites between two or more traditions just coincidence, related to each other or the result of convergent evolution? How can you prove it either way where populations have moved around, inter bred and traded goods, ideas and music for hundreds or thousands of years?

T

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

Proof is impossible, but speculation is fun. ;-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:21 PM

I think you have put your finger on why science is great fun. Get researching!

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:32 PM

And when your research lands on the US shore and the slaves' spirituals, please be sure to drop a note about it to the African-American Spirituals Permathread.

Good hunting!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

Here's the link to thread "Gospel music is Gaelic?.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

Torctgyd -

Those are interesting questions you are raising.

Here are some responses that I thought of:

There are some early records of map makers, adventurers and other relatively lone travelers who did not remain in the area to teach or convert but did document some aspects of the culture in a "by the way" or more observant manner.

Early field recordings and drawings/photographs of ethnic groups people can be compared with later recordings and drawings/photographs/videos.

Also there have been more isolated West African ethnic groups whose music and religion and other indices of their culture has been studied and documented after more "popular" ethnic groups such as the Ashanti and the Yoruba. ..

Furthermore one can ask people was things were like before. We use interviews with informants to find out information about other folk cultural offerings. Why not African music?

The West African musican class {called by the French word 'griot' but also known by the name/title "Jali"} are trained for years to accurately remember generations after generations of their ancestors=both their names and the deeds that they are known for. Jalis are historians/singers/musicians..and the Jali tradition lives on in Senegal and other West African nations [not to mention their practice of creating 'insult' songs lives on in Calypso and Rap music]

Furthermore, I believe that traditional African societies {like other traditional societies} had a different attitude towards and more respect & appreciation for the past than, say, most people in modern day USA do. I believe that certain customs and practices can be documented to have lived on in those societies because the some of the people [maybe fewer than before] want them to take pains for them to. Studying these traditions would also provide information about cultural continuity and change.

One other thought-anthropologist can also study the societies created by Maroons {runaway slaves} in Jamaica, Brazil and more isolated African American peoples like the Gullah people of the Sea Isles of Georgia to get an idea of what music, religion, and other cultural practices were like in West Africa.

Here is one example of cultural continuity from Colin M. Turnballs's 1966 book Tradition and Change in African Tribal Life {Avon Pubishing}

"The first boy born to a Bushman family is named for his father's father, and the first girl is neamed for her father's mother.
The next children are named after their mother's parents, and then, ift he family grows still further, names are taken form the children's various uncles and aunts. This is quite a widespread custom, although the details are different from tribe to tribe. It is all part of a pattern that creates a special bond between old and young people..But it is more than juet a mark of affection, it is part of the whole tribal system. It is the belief that somehow the tribe that is living today is a reflection of the past, and will also extend into the future. Past, present, and future all fuse into one. That is why some important rituals are performed exactly, to the smallest detail, as they are believed to have been performed by the original ancestors. The coronation of the Kabaka, or king, of BaGanda is a fine example of this, he has actually to retrace the footsteps of his ancestor, the founder of the kingdom, and go through the various events that befell him". {pp. 44-45}

end of quote..
{It should be noted that this is the page that the book opened to when I went to see what I could find on your question}...

BTW, Torctgyd-"natives" and "African bush" are loaded terms which can be more than a bit off-putting..But that's the way society generally refers to African societies. I have seldom heard these terms being used to refer to persons born in rural areas of, say, England or Germany...

Just something to think about..

Azizi

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Torctgyd
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:04 AM

Hi Azizi,

Thanks for your excellent reply. I thought I'd put some counter arguments to what you've said (more as a devil' advocate than in the interests of an argument).

""There are some early records of map makers, adventurers and other relatively lone travelers who did not remain in the area to teach or convert but did document some aspects of the culture in a "by the way" or more observant manner."" How accurate and reliable are these reports? I'm thinking here how difficult it is to describe music accurately without reference to other music known to the reporter which could then give the wrong impression to a third party who only knows the comparison music.

""Early field recordings and drawings/photographs of ethnic groups people can be compared with later recordings and drawings/photographs/videos."" This is certainly true for the past 100 years or so but is the rate of change (if any) in the last 100 years indicitive of any possible changes in the preceding 150 years?

""Furthermore one can ask people was things were like before. We use interviews with informants to find out information about other folk cultural offerings. Why not African music?"" I agree, but again this is surely applicable only to the most recent generations, what was learnt at their grandfather's (or mother's)knee or perhaps great grandparents. After that it becomes hearsay i,e, my granddad told me his granddad's father did it this way. How reliable is this evidence?

""The West African musican class {called by the French word 'griot' but also known by the name/title "Jali"} are trained for years to accurately remember generations after generations etc."" A compelling argument on the face of it but how reliable is this method of transmission? Is there any way of knowing?

""One other thought-anthropologist can also study the societies created by Maroons {runaway slaves} in Jamaica, Brazil and more isolated African American peoples like the Gullah people of the Sea Isles of Georgia to get an idea of what music, religion, and other cultural practices were like in West Africa"". Surely this would depend on the make up of the Maroons? Did they run away as newly arrived, first generation slave or were they second or third generation slaves? Are all the slaves from the same tribe or cultural entity who had, for the purposes of this discussion, the same music?

""The first boy born to a Bushman family is named for his father's father... "" This is interesting as this is almost an identical practice to what happens (or at least did do until recently) on the Greek islands. Coincidence or cultural interchange? A whole new discussion for someone!

I wasn't using the terms native or bush in a prejorative manner (is that the right word?), I've certainly heard of people being discribed as native New Englander or native New Yorker. I wouldn't say someone from western Europe was from the bush when I meant rural as the terms rural, countryside or from the country indicate to me that these areas are, in essence, man-made. By which I mean I feel at home in them whereas the African bush (or the outback in Australia or the jungle in Burma) are places I wouldn't feel at home in (rightly or wrongly).

T

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:12 AM

Torctgyd,

I'm afraid that time won't permit me to adequately respond to your points. However, with regard to one of the points you made, here are some excerpts from a book that I might suggest for you and others interested in reading.. Yhe information enclosed in brackets [..] are my additions.

"The history of Black Africa is known, without any break in continuity, from the Empire of Ghana {in the third century A.D.}unitl the prsent day, at least as far as the Northern part of the country is concerned....The history of Ghana [West Africa] is known to us in broad outline, thanks to the works of Arab writerss. Ibn-Khaldoun, born in Tunisia in 1332, in his History of the Berbers gives particulars of the Negro empires of Africa and of the migration from North to South of the white races. Ibn-Haoukal of Bagdad who lived in the thenth century and was a traveing merchant who made many notes about the country he passed through; to him we owe 'The Routes And The Kingdoms'. El Bekri, and Arab geographer born in Tangiers in 1302, visited the empire of Mali [West Africa], the capitol of the empire which succeeded that of Ghana in 1240, he wrote "Voyage To The Sudan".
Cheikh Anta Diop "The Cultural Unity Of Africa, The Domains of
Patriachy and of Matriarchy in Classical Antiquity" {Chicago, Third
World Press, 1978; pp 66-67; originally published in 1959}

-snip-

See this Adobe file on Explorations into ancient African
http://www.mrdowling.com/zip/609ancafr.pdf

Sorry, for some reason I could not crate a link to this file.
However here is one quote on griots:

"West Africa has a great oral tradition. A griot is a learned storyteller, entertainer, and historian. Often a griot will memorize the genealogy, or family history of everyone in a cillage going back centuries. American writer Alex Haley [of 'Roots' fame] met a griot in 1966 that had memorized the entire story of the village of Juffure to a date two centuries in the past when his [Haley's] ancestor was enslaved"

-snip-

Also here is a link to a website that provides further links to other URLS on African explorations

Timelines


****

Torctgyd, you wrote in your post above "I wasn't using the terms native or bush in a prejorative manner..I've certainly heard of people being discribed as native New Englander or native New Yorker.."

Let me assure you that I would not think of trying to decide what you were consciously or unconsciously thinking when you [or any one else] writes a post. My comment was provided as an arm chair student of Black culture.

With regard to the use of the terms 'natives' and 'African bush',I still maintain that these terms have become loaded with negative cultural baggage. With specific regard to 'native', using that word as an adjective [as in the examples you gave] is different than using it as a noun.. So if you had said native African or native Ghanaian, or native to Africa [what ever part of speech that is] I would think that such use would not be considered pejorative.



Azizi

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:21 AM

Sorry, I should have said that the link that I included in my last post provides a historical timeline of events, as well as additional URLs for further study.

See this example from the beginning of that chart:

ca. 600
(to
1000) Bantu migration extends to southern Africa; Bantu languages will predominate in central and southern Africa. Emergence of southeastern African societies, to become the stone city-states of Zimbabwe, Dhlo-Dhlo, Kilwa, and Sofala, which flourish through 1600.
610
639-641
Advent of Islam
Khalif Omar conquers Egypt with Islamic troups.

700-800
From
700
Islam sweeps across North Africa; Islamic faith eventually extends into many areas of sub-Saharan African (to ca. 1500)
Arab Slave Trade, from A.D./C.E. 700 to 1911: Estimates place the numbers of Africans sold in this system somewhere around 14 million: at least 9.6 million African women and 4.4 African men. The Forgotten Holocaust: The Eastern Slave Trade KAMMAASI / Sankofa Project Guide, 1999: http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/easterntrade.html

740 Islamicized Africans (Moors) invade Spain, and rule it unti1 1492. The Moors brought agriculture, engineering, mining, industry, manufacturing, architecture, and scholarship, developing Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe for almost 800 years until the fall of Granada in 1492.


****

Also sorry for the typos in my posts [the preceding one and others].

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Pauline L
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:55 PM

Azizi and Torctgyd, thanks for the fascinating discussion. I know next to nothing about African history and I suspect that I am not alone in this. Azizi, since you believe that "native" and "African bush" are pejorative terms, what other terms would you prefer that people use?

I'm also interested in a related phenomenon in a different culture. In the Clearances of the Scottish Highlands about 200 years ago, the English cruelly and forcibly sent many Highlanders to Cape Breton to get them out of the way. Transporting them was cheaper than feeding and caring for them. Besides, it was more profitable to have sheep inhabit the Highlands. I have often heard that the Celtic music of Cape Breton today resembles Scottish Highland music of 200 years ago, while, in contrast, Scottish Highland music has evolved into something quite different today. How do people know this?

Again from the history of Scottish music, people have tried to infer how Scottish dance music of the seventeenth century sounded. For clues, they use the sound of Scots Gaelic as it was written, drawings of the bow, and drawings and writing about dance shoes of the period. Of course, this is only a few centuries ago, and similar issues about music in Africa go much further back in time.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:03 AM

Pauline L,

One of the things that I like best about Mudcat is that it is an international forum. There are opportunities for people from diverse places and cultures to exchange ideas and opinions with each other.

My comments that "native" and "African bush" have negative connotations is an opinion. I believe that some other people of African descent would agree, and some would disagree and say that I am making much to do about nothing...

Be that as it may, I would prefer that people used the same terms that they would use for persons of European descent. For instance, I believe that if people wanted a quick way to refer to French people who are indigenous to that nation {their families had lived there for generations}, they would say native French people-just as Torctgyd -used the phrases "native New Englander or native New Yorker".

And as to 'the African bush', what about the phrases "rural areas"; "outside the urban areas or cities; "the countryside";
"the forests"; or "the heavily forested areas"? I'd stay away from the word 'jungle' since largely thanks to Tarzan, that word has also become muddied with patronizing and old school prejudicial undertones.

Is this political correctness? Perhaps..and if so, is political correctness alway wrong??

Please let me reiterate that my comments are opinions, and are neither a mandate nor a criticism.


Peace,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Pauline L
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:41 PM

Thanks, Azizi. I will take your advice in the spirit in which it is given.

I like the international aspect of Mudcat, too. Music is so basically human. It transcends political and ethnic divisions. In a world rife with conflict and hate, music can be a powerful force to bring people together.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM

I think there is a difference between respect and sensitivity towards something and Political Correctness.
This is just me, but I would use 'native' or 'local' if talking about somehwere specific, be it Africa, Asia or Europe. But if it was rubbing someone on a raw spot and they asked not to, I'd probably find a different word. PC too often kills a good conversation. it's a form of censorship really.
Anyway interesting discusstion. Can't contribute much to this, but the naming of the children after the grandparents is not unique to Africa, it's done in many cultures, Judaism for example, perhaps not as systematicaly as the bushmen.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:17 PM

Please don't repeat that slander about "the English" clearing the Highlands. It promotes racial hatred, beside being essentially untrue. Any good history book will reveal the complexities of what happened. John Prebble's Highland Clearances is a fair introduction, though he has his critics; John G Gibson's Traditional Gaelic Bagpiping, 1745 - 1945 analyses emigration records and demographic patterns, and is very educational for those raised on old wives' tales as opposed to real history (he also comprehensively demolishes the myth that the bagpipes were banned after Culloden).

The Highland landowners were responsible for the Clearances, and I'm afraid that most of them were Scottish Highlanders. That particular matter has been gone into in some detail in a number of past discussions, and needn't be repeated here, where it would be a distraction.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 06:09 PM

Torctgyd,

My two cents worth:

What you propose is largely an intellectual exercise, in which one can triangulate on the songs of any given region and culture based on 1) what they do now (and determining how widespread the practice), 2) what they say they used to do, and 3) any recorded evidence (in the most general sense--whether written down ages ago or captured via some electric medium).

There is never going to be a completely "authentic" description or performance of the Ur songs of any of those cultures, but I suspect you could find some very interesting fragments that contribute to the authenticity of modern performances. Things that are idiomatic to the cultures in question that have been passed down unchanged (even though the understanding or meaning are less well understood).

Political correctness is a scourge to a lot of scholarly work. You spend so much time trying to find the blandest and least "offensive" (and offensive to whom?) description that you lose the momentum of what you're doing by the time you've included all of your hyphenated qualifiers in your report. When possible, ask the parties in question what they call themselves, stay away from the rude or derogatory terms, they don't advance scholarship anyway, but don't worry about the rest. It'll sort itself out 100 years from now in some way you can't anticipate anyway.

If you're researching music you must keep yourself open to the humanities in general. Looking only in musicology sources you will miss songs transcribed as poems, literature that includes references or fragments of songs, durable art forms that contain visual reference to songs or stories. What philosophers were active in an area centuries ago? Africa really wasn't the "dark continent" except that Europeans tended to write it off and not acknowledge the art and science as important when compared to their own. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. Euros simply didn't know or care what they were looking at. I've spent more time working with American Indian literature, so will use that to illustrate the rest of my thoughts.

Scholars from many disciplines study American Indian cultures and wonder at what came before the "contamination" (as you call it) of European culture. Where Indian groups weren't wiped out, and in fact had a chance to commingle with the Euro colonists, they at least had a chance of passing down Indian cultural material. Had the Euro entrance onto the continent been less bloody, it might have been even more disruptive to Indian cultures if they blended earlier and easily adopted the European way of things. The syncretic ability of tribal people to take something useful from new cultures and blend it with their own allows for survival and growth (and this probably isn't limited to American Indian cultures). You must realize that even had Europeans NOT conquered North America, had instead stopped at the borders to trade, the Indian songs and stories that are sung and told now would be vastly different from what they were singing and telling centuries ago. I think it would be futile to try to perfect a view of what a culture was, and what they might have been without interruption, because the result often tends to devalue what they are now, implying imperfection or flaws come with dilution. This is in no way an apology for the agonies of colonization as waves of it occurred on this continent. But it is an acknowledgement that there's no going back or undoing the cultural mingling and growth that has happened.

Enjoy the process, and revel in the discoveries as you search, but don't hold the past as more "authentic" or valuable. That gives the impression of dismissing the people and cultures who are here now.

SRS

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

Azizi-

I wonder if you could recommend some writers who have dealt historically with West African and North African music. I realize that sources will always be problematic when we are dealing with (what I assume) has been a purely oral tradition until very recent times. This is one of those topics that I really know next to nothing about, and now I'm beginning to think I should try to learn a little more.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

Michael,

I am delighted to share some titles with you about the history & aesthetics of African music in general, and of West African music in particular. I'm sorry, but I have no books or knowledge of books that specifically focus on the history & aesthetics of North African music.
{There is a chapter on Central African music in the one of the books I am suggesting that you consider reading}.

General overview:
Francis Bebey, "African Music, A People's Art" {Brooklyn, N.Y, Laurence Hill Books, originally published 1969; English translation 1975 Josephine Bennet}

This author appears to be highly regarded and pasages from this slim book is quoted in a number of books..The cover has this summary "African music-it's forms, musicians, instruments, and it's place in the life of the people. Profusely illustrated, excellent discography..

Warren L. d' Azevedo, editor, "The Traditional Artist In African Societies", Bloomington & London,Indiana University Press, 1973}

I just got this book from a used book store {Love them places!!}

This book is about African art {not just music} and appears to be full of interesting information. Chapters on music include: The Musician in Akan Society by J.H. Kwabena Nketia {the writer is from that society; the Akan people are from Ghana and The Ivory Coast}

There are also chapters on The Hausas {Northern Nigeria, a Muslim culture; and The Balas {The Congo-Kinshasa; formerly Zaire}.

Books on specific cultures:
John Miller Chernoff, "African Rhythm and African Sensibility, Aesthetic and Social Action in African Musical Idioms",Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1979

This book provides an account of the author's experiences with drummers who are part of the Dagbani culture of Ghana.

Samuel Charters "The Roots of the Blues: A Search" {Boston, Marion Boyars, 1981

This book provides an account of the author's experiences with Jalis{griots} and other musicians of The Gambia.

[It is amazing that both of these authors-who happen to be White males-have a Pittsburgh, Pa connection. Pittsburgh is the city that I've lived in for the last 35 years. Samuel Charters was born in Pittsburgh, and John Miller Chernoff {who I have met & heard drum} still lives here.

Enjoy learning about these fascinating cultures!

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:07 PM

Thanks for the references, and I look forward to learning something new.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 10:44 AM

You're welcome, Michael.

Cleaning out files last night, I came across notes on African history which led me to this book that I had quoted upthread:

Cheikh Anta Diop, The Cultural Unity Of Black Africa", Chicago, Third World Press, 1963, originally published 1959 in French}.

I would HIGHLY recommend this book for those interested in learning more about that subject.

I'm posting a rather long excerpt from this book which is slightly off topic. Yet it addresses in part the topic of documentation of life in historical West Africa, and provides some information on naming practices. Note my comment regarding the word followed by an asterisk..

"The Islamisation of West Africa began with the Almoravidia movement in the tenth century. It can be emphasized that it introduced a sort of diving line in the evolution of religious consciousmess, first of the princes, and as a result, among the people...

In West Africa, the adoption of the father's name for the children seems to stem from this same Arabic influence; As a matter of fact we have just larned from Ibn Batouta that in 1253, children took the name of their maternal uncle, that is to say, their mother's brother: the children did indeed take the name of a man, but the regime was purely matrilineal; it only ceased to be so from the time when, according to Islamic custom, the name of the father was substituted for the name of the uncle.

It is important to note that, beginning with the same period, detribalisation was an accomplished fact in West Africa; this is proved by the possibility of an individual bearing his own family name and not the name of a clan. In regions of the continent which are not detribalised individuals only have a first name; when their proper name is asked for they reply that they belong to such a totem clan, whose name can only be born collectively. It is only when members of the clan are dispersed that they could retain as individuals, in memory of their primitive* culture, the name of the clan, which could then become their family name.

It is, however, necessary to stress a particular fashion of naming a child which seems to proceed from a dualist conception of social life. To the boy's names is added that of the mother and to the daughter's name that of the father; for instance: Cheikh Fatma means the son of Fatma. Magette Massamba-Sassoun is the daughter of Massaba-Sassoun. It is certain that this does not come from Arabic influence."

-end of quote-

Along with this book I found note written on loose leaf paper with no book or page attribution. However, it provides some interesting information on this topic:

"For Bantus ** to know a person's name is to know that person' essence or profound nature. Traditionally Bantus would take care not to reveal their names to strangers..

end of 'quote'..

I also wrote this note to myself on that paper: Traditionally African
people had birth names, circumcision names, nicknames, and praise names by which they are known.

* "primitive" here means something like 'from the earliest of times'
and has no negative valuation.

** Bantus: the plural form of the referent 'Bantu'; a large division of ethnic groups [which are further sub-divided by ancestry and language] in Central, East, and South Africa..Many but not all ethnic groups in these areas are Bantu.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:00 PM

Are you sure about Cheikh? If so, it's an interesting derivation.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:01 PM

Allen, this is REALLY off the subject of this thread,

but since I love etymology, I can't resist attempting to respond to your post.

from Internet encyclopedia site whose URL I failed to get
sheikh, sheik

noun {C}

an Arab ruler or head of a tribe
sheikhdom

from Julia Sewart "African Names" {New York, Carol Publishing Group, 1993, p. 28-29}
"Cheikh {shayk}- Guinean {Guinea, West Africa} name meaning "learned"
Cheikh Hamadou Kane is a Senegalese politician and writer whose novel "Ambiguous Adventure" won the 1962 Grand Prix Litteraire de l'Afrique Noir."

I assume that the name {and title?} 'Cheikh' originally came from Arabic, but I can't be certain. Also I'm not sure if 'Cheikh' is an earned praise name or is given at birth..

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 04:16 PM

Yes, that's why I was curious about it meaning son. Unless the author made a mistake. Sheikh is not given at birth, it is either earned or awarded per status.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM

Allen, I think you are referring to this excerpt "Cheikh Fatma means the son of Fatma"..

In the context of that passage, I don't think that the author meant for those words to be taken literally-one word being a translation of another..

Also remember that this work was translated into English from French. The book I have says "The English translation edition was originally published in Presence Africaine in 1963, it is here reprinted in by arrangement"...

Professor Diop {as he is referred to in the introduction to his book} may have meant that it was the custom of people to refer to sons and daughters using their parent's names. So a male whose birth name is "Cheikh" {or who had earned that name} was called "Cheikh Fatma". In English we would probably say "Fatma's Cheikh".

"Fatma" is an Africanized form of the Arabic female name "Fatima", The name refers to one of the Prophet's Muhammad's daughters and means "weaned".

The only other example that this book gives in that passage on names is that a female whose name is "Magette" who has a father named "Massamba-Sassoun" is called "Magette Massaba-Sassoun".


Notice that in both of the examples cited the female name comes first {whether it is the mother's name or the daughter's name}. This speaks to Diop's assertion that this society originally was matriarchal, and has retained some elements of that matriarchy.

Sorry, I don't know the etymology of the other names, though I have seen "Diop" used as a last name for other some other persons of renown from Guinea. Any information that you or anyone else can provide regarding the meaning of these names would be greatly appreciated.

Also, given the discussion at Mudcat about the use of referents for people of African descent, I also will quote this other passage from the inside cover of this book:

"The Cultural Unity of Black Africa" was reproduced out of the original text "The Cultural Unity of Negro Africa" without editing or modification {except the replacement of the word "Negro" for the word "Black"}.

Best wishes,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: mg
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:53 AM

Is anyone collecting the cattle songs of the "lost boys of Sudan." I understand they do not want to be called that as they are grown men now. Anyway, based on bits and pieces I have read about them, they grew up cattle owners, and would write these songs about their cows. Even when they were in their terrible years of fleeing wars etc. they still wrote and sang songs about their cows. When they had the chance to come to America they wanted to come to Chicago, because they had seen T-shirts with Chicago Bulls on them, and thought here was a group of people who also appreciated cows. Many ended up in Dakota...where they probably are able to own cattle again if they choose. It is a truly epic story... mg

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:25 PM

What do you make of the practice of dancing the slaves on the Middle Passage? Any significant influence on their music?

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:51 PM

Ah! African dance!!

LOVE IT!! {Particularly when it's done well}

****

Hello, Allen!
If you are asking me if I accept the notion that enslaved African Americans learned how to tap dance while they were on the horrorific slave ships, I would respond with one word "NO".

However, I do believe that there was eventually an exchange of dance information and styles between African Americans and other non-African peoples.

It's just MUCH more complicated than that..

I would suggest these books on African dance:

Kariamu Welsh Asante, editor "African Dance; An Artistic, Historical, and Philosphical Inquiry" {Trenton, New Jersey; Africa World Press, Inc. second printing 1998}

Omofolabo S. Ajayi, "Yoruba Dance, The Semiotics if Movement and Body Attitude in Nigerian Culture" {Trenton, New Jersey, Africa World Press, 1998}

Lynne Fauley Emery, "Black Dance from 1619 to Today", second revised edition {Princeton, New Jersey, Princeton Book Co., 1988}

Also here is a book on related topic:
Sussana Sloat, editor "Caribbean Dance from Abakua to Zouk: How Movement Shapes Identity" {Gainesville,University Press of Florida, 2002}

In addition, see this excerpt from the anthology "African Dance"
"..there are many styles of dance in Africa, as numerous as the different ethnic groups...Dance is a way of life for African people and is associated with everyday activities. Dances can be grouped into categories such as birth, death, puberty, war, recreation, initiation and ritual. Dance in Africa is always accompanied by music which ranges from handclapping and singing to massive orchestras of of instrumentation. Dance is so vital in the everyday lives of people, that in Ghana if you are a chief and cannot dance the way of your people, you can be dethroned. Dance is Africa is a way of life, a source of communication, and history reenacted through movement." {"Traditional Dance in Africa"; p. 26}

Enjoy!!

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:14 PM

Tap dance? Never intimated that. I was wondering if the slavers practice of dancing them on deck so they got exercise had any influence. Something must have rubbed off, however slight. And vice-versa. I have done some reading on African dance and drumming BTW but if you ask me which sources, I'm afraid I draw a blank. The Emery book, is that about black dance in the US?

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:58 PM

Emery book-some mention of African dance; more mention of Caribbean dance; most about African American dance.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 05:03 PM

BTW, I'm not being curt-I'm rushed because of the holiday.

Peace,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM

It's ok, Azzizi, wasn't bothered.
BTW, and this is totaly OT, did you see an African film that was about a young man and his mother whose village was raided by a neighbouring king, selling them into slavery? I can't remember the name right off, but it was made 5 or 6 years ago. Really powerful.

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Frankham
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

"Here's the link to thread "Gospel music is Gaelic?."

Becky or could it be that Gaelic music is really African? Zinjanthopus got here first.

Frank

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Pauline L
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:32 PM

I have heard that swing dance is truly American because it uses both the ballroom positions of the partners, which is European American, and the non-ballroom position (I've forgotten its name), which is African American. Is there any truth to this, Azizi and others?

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:40 AM

Pauline L {and others interested in this subject},

I apologize. I'm just seeing this post more than two years later. I found this thread while searching for threads on another subject.

I'm not sure what is meant by the "non-ball room position that is African American".

Perhaps a partial answer to the question of European and African American {or African} roots of swing and other American social dances can be found in this excerpt:

..."Some dancers nicknamed [Katherine] Dunham "Anthropological Katie" because of her extensive background in anthropology, which informed her company's dance. As a graduate student at the University of Chicago, she spent a year in the Caribbean filming and documenting Afro-Caribbean dance, and some of her original footage is featured in Free to Dance. Dunham's technical mastery and high-voltage stage presence might have helped make her a star, but it was the didactic component of her dance that made it acceptable to a wide American audience. Context was important in her performances; the ballets often reflected a mixture of regional dancing, drumming, costuming, and speech, and she insisted that her dancers understand the social and religious underpinnings of each dance.

Dunham, now in her nineties, is the recipient of many national and international honors for her contributions to modern dance. She says it is "foolish" to present any cultural phenomenon as growing in total isolation, even classical ballet. Some of Dunham's contributions are clearly delineated. It is impossible to think of modern dance without the articulation of the shoulders or the pelvis--but these seemed revolutionary when first introduced as part of the Dunham method. Her influence, and that of African and Afro-Caribbean dance, are traced in Free to Dance, and so is the influx of other influences fresh from Africa.

The documentary makes extensive use of archival dance footage, recreations of historic dances, and interviews with African American artists--some well-known, some almost unknown. The film demonstrates what has been called the Africanization of American movement, showing how American dance of many types--concert, folk, theatrical, ballroom--has combined the European ideals of movement with those brought from Africa. European dance, whether it is ballet, flamenco, or Irish step dance, has as an aesthetic ideal of the upright torso and the extended leg. Once that aesthetic was transplanted to the United States, it became something else because it blended with African influences. In many African cultures, a bent knee symbolizes life--and a straight leg symbolizes death. Thanks to African movement, the bent knee and the articulated torso became important features in modern dance"...

http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2001-01/freetodance.html

-snip-

I'd be interested in hearing from others on the subject of the aesthetics of African American social dancing and non-African [American} social dancing.