'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background

Subject: "The Wild Goose Shanty"
From:
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 04:31 PM

Hello All,

I have a cut of Colin Wilkie et al doing a fine job singing "The Wild Goose Shanty" ("We'll Ranzo Way") There's no liner notes. It's essentially the same text as in DigTrad. I don't see any similarity of the tune or text to my other sea-song books. Hugill, mostly, has nothing similar.

Does anyone know where this text & tune may come from? Any other verses? Colin sings only the same three verses as in DT.

Thanks.

Subject: RE:
From: Bert
Date: 09 Dec 98 - 05:25 PM

Don't know where it came from but Lionel Bart used it in his musical "Maggie May"
It's a lovely tune that some days just won't go away.

Bert.

Subject: RE:
From: Jon W.
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 11:09 AM

From the liner notes of "Blow Boys Blow" by Ewan MacColl & A.L. Lloyd:

One of the great halyard shanties is "Wild Goose Shanty," seemingly better known in English ships than American ones, though some versions of it have become crossed with the American song called "Huckleberry Hunting." From the graceful movement of its melody it is possible that this is an older shanty than most. Perhaps it evolved out of some long-lost lyrical song.

By the way, does anyone know the meaning of the word "Ranzo"? I've heard it in several shanties.

Subject: RE:
From: Jon W.
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 01:55 PM

The MacColl/Lloyd version is slightly different than the version in the DT but has no other verses.

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 04:26 PM

Jon, I'm not familar with the MacColl/Lloyd version but it may be one aslo called Huckleberry Hunting which both Hugill & Doerflinger have as the Wild Goose Shanty, even though the wild geese reference doesn't appear at all but Ranzo (Hilo me Ranzo R(w)ay) does gets in on the chorus. The tunes are also very different, at least from what I've heard. I've only heard one tune used for the Wild Goose Shanty that starts off "Did you ever see a wild goose sailing over the ocean".

Abby, if I had to guess as to the origins of the words & tune I'd say with its high hitches there's some bit of Arfo American influence but I'd lean more to it coming out of the British tradition. It doesn't lend itself in a great way for improvising & harmonies, there's not much change within the same versions, the words & phrasing ( and the fair maid replys, "she said none the better for the seeing of you"). But put me on a witness stand, Abby, & I'd deny all & say 'I don't know for sure'. Good Luck. If you find more would you post it here. Barry

Subject: Lyr Add: RANZO RAY / WILD GOOSE SHANTY
From: Abby Sale
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 04:42 PM

:-)

As you say, Barry. Colin does it a little different but not significant. But they _do_ get up a nice bit of harmony on the refrain & drag it out as long as they like.

Jon, Thanks for the advance. Huckleberry Shanty begins:

RANZO RAY

Oh, I'm shantyman of the workin' party
Timme way, timme hey, timme he ho hay
So sing lads, pull lads, so strong and hearty
An' sing Hilo, me Ranzo Ray!

I'm shantyman or the Wild Goose nation,
Got a maid that I left on the big plantation,

-snip--

Oh, the boys an' the gals went a huckleberry huntin'
The gals began to cry an' the boys they dowsed their buntin'

It's seemed to me (just to keep it confused) that "We'll Ranzo Way" is a very different song from "Ranzo Ray" even though both are sometimes called "Wild Goose Shanty."

So---- I just ordered both the MacColl/Lloyd CD ($10) & the Killen ($13) wotthehell.

(I like the song.)

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Dec 98 - 05:04 PM

Abby, what'd ya 'spect, those Ranzos' are a disfunctional family. You gots ya Reubens, Robins & ya Rays, then thars the wild ones a berry pickin & a chasin little gals that like those by the name of Jackie Miller & they're all forever goin off to some place called Tummy Hilo Away Hey. Happy! to see hanging around here Abby. Barry

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty' background
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 02:09 PM

The lyrics Kate Rusby sings are amazingly similar to the lyrics we have in the Digital Tradition. Here's the Rusby recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6tVU--Cbes

WILD GOOSE
(as recorded by Kate Rusby)

Did you ever see the wild goose sailing on the ocean
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray
They're just like them pretty girls when they get the notion
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray

Chorus
Ranzo you'll rue the day
As the wild goose sails away

As I was walking one evening by the river
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray
I met with a pretty girl my heart it was a quiver
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray

(Chorus x 2)
I said how are you doing this morning
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray
She said none the better for the seeing of you
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray

(Chorus x 2)
You broke my heart oh you broke it full sore o'
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray
If I sail like the wild goose
You'll break it no more o'
Ranzo my boys oh Ranzo Ray


---


Can't say I'm familiar with the Steeleye Span version, either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ShEU9gnqwU
They sure ain't nothin' like anything I've ever heard at a chantey sing.


---


This is the Killen version I'm familiar with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeaWvvJjup0

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty' background
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 03:02 PM

I have little doubt that the "standard" lyrics originated with A. L. Lloyd, perhaps on "Blow, Boys, Blow."

He may have elaborated them from a stanza or two in W. Roy Mackenzie's "Ballads and Sea Songs from Nova Scotia" (1928) and altered the tune somewhat as well.

Gibb may know more.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 04:40 PM

Here's the A.L. Lloyd version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPj9SlkpjRs

Also see Huckleberry Hunting.

---

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song:

Huckleberry Hunting

DESCRIPTION: Shanty. Characteristic line: "To me, Hilo, me Ranzo boy!" Boys and girls went huckleberry hunting, with the boys naturally chasing the girls. In the end a boy proposes to a girl (perhaps after seeing her garter)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1917
KEYWORDS: shanty courting
FOUND IN: US(MA) Canada(Mar)
REFERENCES (9 citations):
Doerflinger, p. 32, "Huckleberry Hunting" (1 text, 1 tune)
Colcord, p. 69, "Huckleberry Hunting" (1 text, 1 tune)
Harlow, pp. 88-89, "Hilo, My Ranzo Way" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Hugill, pp. 249-250, "We'll Ranzo Way" (1 text, 1 tune) [AbEd, pp. 181-182]
Sharp-EFC, XIV, p. 17, "Huckleberry Hunting" (1 text, 1 tune)
Mackenzie 102, "The Wild Goose" (1 text, 1 tune)
Terry-Shanty1, #12, "The Wild Goose Shanty" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, (RANZORAY* -- the text here is very similar to Doerflinger's, but the tunes are so different that one wonders if they could be the same shanty)
ADDITIONAL: Captain John Robinson, "Songs of the Chantey Man," a series published July-August 1917 in the periodical _The Bellman_ (Minneapolis, MN, 1906-1919). "Huckleberry Picking" is in Part 1, 7/14/1917.
Roud #328
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Ranzo Ray" (floating lyrics, form of chorus)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Sing Hilo, Me Ranzo Ray
File: Doe032

---

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2019 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

---

We have two "Ranzo Ray" songs in the Digital Tradition:

Ranzo Ray

Ranzo Ray 2

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:38 PM

22 years late, but Ranzo is a shortening of the proper name 'Lorenzo'.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 07:38 PM

This song, Wild Goose Chantey might as well be sung for entertainment as it has no credible or lasting usage/value at the halliards; neither as long haul or short drag work or hand over hand stay sail hauling. It reminds me of Toms/Tommy's Gone to Hilo. Not practical. The verses are too short and the chorus too much like a drinking song chorus. Huckleberry Hunting is an entirely different animal; not for halliards but for pumps or windlass.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 10:37 PM

From Ballads and Sea Songs from Nova Scotia (W. Roy Mackenzie). First edition 1928; transcribed from the edition of 1963.

THE WILD GOOSE

The brief version which follows I secured from Ephraim Tattrie of Tatamgouche, Colchester County. The air is a particularly fine one, of the type which in the eighteenth century was characterized as "wild and melancholy."

Did you ever see a wild goose floating on the ocean?
Ranzo, ranzo, away, away!
It's just like the young girls when they take the notion.
Ranzo, ranzo, away, away!

--

The melody given in the back of the book seems more or less to be a rhythmically stricter form of what Lloyd sang.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 11:10 PM

Hi, Wm. I went to Mackenzie, intending to post the full lyrics from his book. But what you posted, is all there is. Here are his notes. At least I can add that. The book groaned as I put it in the scanner. It will never be the same.

102
THE WILD GOOSE
This is to be regarded as a halliard shanty, although it apparently served ar times for the men who were heaving at the capstan bars. Terry lists it as a windlass and capstan shanty. It is of all shanties the most conspicuous for variability, and the investigator must be guided chiefly by the swing and metre of the lines and refrains and by the appearance of “Ranzo” in one or both of the refrains. Sometimes the “wild goose” figures in the first line; but while this is to be sought for, it is by no means always to be found. Bullen and Arnold (Songs of Sea Labour, p. 18) print a version under a title which is also the first line of the song, “Oh, what did you give for your fine leg of murron? Terry (Sailor Shanties, First Selection, pp. 4-5, and The Shanty Book, pp. 26—27) entitles it “The Wild Goose Shanty,” and his version begins, "I'm the shantyman of the wild goose nation.” Davis and Tozer ("Sailors' Songs" pp. 50—51) give it the generic title “The Chanty-Man’s Song” and present a version which begins with “I’m Chanty-man of the working party.” These strangely differentiated versions are all English, and the song seems been in use on British ships much more than on American ones. Two versions, however, have been printed in the United States: one by Captain John Robinson (The Bellman, July 14, 1917) with the title “Ranzo Ray” and beginning “We’ve passed the cliffs of Dover in the good old ship the Rover,” and one by Colcord, (p. 23) entitled “Huckleberry Hunting” and starting off with "Oh, the boys and the girls went a-huckleberry hunting.”
The brief version which follows I secured from Ephraim Tattrie of
Tatamagouche, Colchester County. The air is a particularly fine one, of the type which in the eighteenth century was characterized as “wild and melancholy":

Did you ever see a wild goose floating on the ocean?
Ranzo, ranzo, away, away!
It’s just like the young girls when they take the notion.
Ranzo, ranzo, away, away!

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM

The Kate Rusby version is a travesty, Wild Goose Flying or Ranzo is a shanty not a twee love song.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 02:19 PM

Agree completely, Dave, but songs have always jumped from one genre to another and these work songs are very rarely sung in context any more. Some are sung as long drawn out dirges, some have become very twee, but don't forget a good number of the chanties originated themselves in other genres, minstrel songs, stevedore songs, slave songs, shore songs of all types.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 07:17 PM

"Zip Coon, Comic Song" (N.Y.: Thos. Birch, 1834), stanza 3:

Did you eber see the wild goose, sailin' on de [sic] ocean,
O de wild goose motion is a berry pretty motion,
Ebry time de wild goose beckons to de swaller,
You hear him google google google goller

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 17 May 22 - 06:29 PM

While Lloyd's first recording of this song appeared on Blow, Boys, Blow appeared in 1957, Ewan Maccoll was singing it as early as 1953. In this recording hosted at Tobar an Dualchais/Kist o Riches, he performs the text as given in Mackenzie (though substituting "them pretty girls" for "the young girls" in the second solo line). If nothing else, it's interesting to hear a Revival recording that predates Lloyd's now-standard elaborations.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 May 22 - 03:00 PM

That's an awesome find, Jon.

Anyone else think that those 2 lines of Mackenzie's have too many syllables for a halliard chanty? I used to sing it meself but looking back it seems too long for a short haul. I know the haul would be on the chorus, but I can't think of any other halliard chanty that has such long lines. Do we have any recordings of real crewmen singing it, say from the 20s?

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 May 22 - 07:13 PM

Joe’s and Dave’s mention of the Kate Rusby version prompts me to tell a wee story from Stonehaven Folk Festival (Aberdeenshire, Scotland) a few years back. In a session in the Marine Hotel, down by Stonehaven harbour, (of all places!) some chap sang this very gentle, syrupy version of “Ranzo”.
One of the locals turned to him after he’d finished, and said “Whaur did ye learn that? Ye dinna sing it like that, laddie, it’s a sea shanty!” to which the singer replied “I learned it off a Kate Rusby CD”……..

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:02 AM

delighted to find this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8YC7iOsEg

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 11:14 AM

Steve, it might have worked if the solos were sung rapidly - unlike the revival versions.

Just a guess. Where's Gibb?

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 11:16 AM

P.S.: "Old Zip Coon" (essentially "Turkey in the Straw") is unlikely to have been sung ponderously.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 09:09 AM

Hi Steve,

Difference between a "long haul" (halyard) chanty's form -- which I consider THE standard chanty form -- and a "short haul" (course sheets/tacks, couple other doo-dads) -- of which there are actual less than a handful of exemplars -- is the balanced length between call lines and response lines in the former form. Sometimes the response lines might look shorter (i.e. than the call lines) in text on a page, but of course in singing the words will be stretched out so that in musical time they are the same. Take that as true in ninety-whatever-percent of cases and let's not worry about 100%.

I consider this chanty to be another variation of "hilo, my ranzo way" or "huckleberry hunting" etc etc, so here are some of the requested 1920s recordings you asked for! (there are 2 Carpenter recordings):
https://www.vwml.org/record/VWMLSongIndex/SN19865

My conclusion is, yes, it could be sung at halyards, no problem. Form is right. Rhythm is right. The slow TEMPO of the singers might give you pause, and we could go on and on splitting that hair. If it helps to envision it better at a quick tempo, here's Craig Edwards singing it in modern times:
https://youtu.be/kxy7pdQDBOU

To reiterate, it COULD be sung at halyards. I'm not able to analyze all the data right now to give an opinion as to to what extent / how often it may actually have been sung at halyards.

For whatever it's worth for brainstorming -- I'm unable to elaborate -- I strongly suspect this song's origin to have been river steamboats. (And that's not in competition with the floating minstrel song verses; I'm talking about the "essence" of the song: tune and chorus.)

Gratuitous aside: I don't think Lloyd quite understood the rhythm of chanties, and the two prominent examples of when he screwed the pooch were in "Heave away, my johnnies" and "South Australia". In both, it's pretty clear that he was working from a transcription in a book but whereas the transcription in the books were fine, Lloyd mysteriously takes the correct pitches of the melody but sets them in rhythm incorrectly. The mystery is whether he just couldn't read the music well enough, didn't care to, or just felt like doing his own thing. So, I can't remember the story of how / where Lloyd got the "Wild Goose" one, except to say it seems like another of those cases where he just said "F- it, Homes. I'm just gonna go for it."

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 09:47 AM

Thanks for your response, Gibb. That makes sense.

Re Lloyd, no researcher this side of the pond (except a few cranks) takes anything Lloyd presented seriously as far as authenticity is concerned (and that doesn't just apply to sea songs/chanties). You are far nearer the truth with 'I'm just gonna go for it'. His made up text for 'Heave away, me Johnny' is a prime example.

However, I must now don my performer cap once again and qualify that with: Bert was a brilliant song adapter and performer, and we sing his songs regardless over here, made up by him or not. I have sung both the chanties you quote in the past and they are still part of the Spare Hands repertoire, though I don't lead them.

While I'm on, on a different tack, I'm running a chanty workshop on Thursday night to shanghai new members for Hull Chanty Crew. This all comes under the umbrella of our charity 'Folk in Hull' which now runs my maritime concerts and Hull Folk and Maritime Festival (September 9th to 11th). I have been taken to task by our publicity officer for using the c word as opposed to the s word which is far more recognised in internet hits this side of the pond. I can see her point but, having been for some time one of your disciples, when we set up Hull Chanty Crew quite a while ago, I was following your lead. Using your book I looked very closely at all the usages of each spelling and most pre 1910 publications use the C word.

However, a couple of days ago using your biblio I tried to track down on the net (Archive) more of the earlier articles I didn't have. Greatly to my surprise the Once a Week article of 1868 and the almost identical article in Chambers 1869 both used the S word. Were they written by the same person do you know or is the Chambers a plagiarisation?

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 04:47 PM

Re Lloyd, no researcher this side of the pond (except a few cranks) takes anything Lloyd presented seriously as far as authenticity is concerned (and that doesn't just apply to sea songs/chanties)."
Steve Gardham, I would take Bert seriously on the subject of sheep shearing and whaling, subjects of which he had first hand experience,
i think you make a mistake in dismissing ALL his scholarship as faulty

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 12:46 AM

Steve,

All the analysis I've done of the spelling topic is in that _American Speech_ article I sent to you. I'm not sure why you'd think the S spelling is significant in those two pieces you mentioned, based only on surveying the titles of selected works cited in _Boxing the Compass_ (since those selected works cited are not coterminous with the data for the orthographic analysis). If you think establishing a clearer picture between Once a Week and Chambers's, beyond whatever I say about that in _Boxing_, will reveal some insight, then I think you should go for it. But I have nothing additional to offer and I'm not inclined to spend time on that because I don't suspect it will add significant insight and I've got bigger fish to fry.

I think you've got my point about Lloyd's renditions a little twisted, Steve, and now here comes The Sandman again to use that as an opening to twist it more. I would never offer such a mundane "point" as "Lloyd wasn't authentic" or "Lloyd's scholarship shouldn't be taken seriously." My interests are in other, much more specific things that I'm curious about, and performances of Lloyd are just pieces of data that combine with others to help form a picture of the big question that interests me. I'm not interested in assessing the legacy of Lloyd or debates of authenticity. I am interested in answering bigger historical and cultural questions.

The data of Lloyd's total performances gives us insight to his likely process for the Wild Goose performance. That in turn gives us some ability to assess to what degree and in what ways we might want to use it as part of contemplating how Huckleberry Hunting might have been approached by various actors in their (unheard) performances.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 03:05 AM

what bigger historical and cultural questions.?

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:24 PM

Sorry for the drift.
Dick, you need to talk to some Aussies on Bert's contributions to Australian history and one whaling trip on a modern whaler to Antarctica doesn't qualify you to write about the history of whaling. Oops, I forgot, he sailed on the Pequod in the 19th century!

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 06:38 PM

Graham is a singer, songwriter, poet & Australia's first Professor of Folklore, now Emeritus Professor, School of Media, Creative Arts and Social Inquiry | Faculty of Humanities, Curtin University

A. L. Lloyd in Australia: Some conclusions

January 2006, Folk Music Journal 9(1):56-71, Graham Seal, Curtin University

To read the full-text of this research, you can request a copy directly from the author.

The nature and extent of A. L. Lloyds editing and reworking of Australian folk songs has long been a controversial issue in Australia. Examination of the extant Lloyd papers and a survey of the work of other researchers allows for a critical consideration of Lloyd editorial practices and also an assessment of his importance for Australian folk song scholarship. These issues are significant ones, both for understanding the nature of the Australian bush song tradition and for its general presentation to the public.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 03:43 AM

Steve, he made two trips so why does this disqualify him.
having worked on sheep farms he is surely qualified to talk about it. it seems the fashion to discredit Lloyds opinions willy nilly or regardless of context

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 03:47 AM

for example in the clip he talks about the pace shanties were sung, are you going to dismiss this comment too, and if so what are your opinions based on.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 03:58 AM

my apologies if that post appears aggressive it is not intended to be so,
I feel a bit sorry for him , he is not here to defend himself, and i think it is easy to accidentally create an impression that all his scholarship should be dismissed

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:46 PM

Lighten up, Dick.
Bert was very widely-read and self-educated. He was an intelligent, clever journalist and like all journalists he knew how to manipulate the truth. I have not said his scholarship should be dismissed, it just needs scrutiny before repeating any of it. I cannot think of how Bert would have had first-hand experience of any chanties being sung at work. I'm sure he read much of the literature that was available in his day, but a lot of that was distorted by the English captains anyway. We can all present opinions on the pace, rhythm and usage of chanties, but none of us were actually there. Refacimentos like the Moby Dick film are all just speculation. Even people like Dick Maitland were scratching their memories of things that happened 60 years earlier.

Why should you feel sorry for Bert? We all remember him with fond memories and are very glad that he left behind such an influential legacy. Almost all of the stuff he distorted or made up is common knowledge now, so little harm done.

He was writing sleeve notes and books when very little serious research had been done in the history of folksong, so he made some of it up. We can go to other resources to find out nowadays, so not a problem.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 01:51 PM

Steve, he made two trips so why does this disqualify him

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 02:01 PM

Do you really need to ask, Dick? Bert made these 2 voyages from Hull on a modern whaler to Antarctica with a mechanical harpoon gun on the bow. It would be like comparing a song like The Barley Mow to a modern pop song, or in terms of singers comparing a real chantyman from the 1850s to Bert's performance in Moby Dick.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 03:49 PM

really?

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 06:56 PM

Yup.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:47 AM

I agree with Steve. There can have been minimal resemblance between the whalers that Bert sailed on and sailing ships (whether whalers or others) of the 1800s. In particular, what use would the crews have had for shanties?

On another tangent: there's also a song (shanty?) with opening line
"I'm a shanty man of the wild goose nation"
and refrain
"Hilo me Ranzo Ray".
Does this tell us any more about Ranzo himself, or the significance to sailors of a wild goose?

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 10:40 AM

Hi, Richard. Not sure all the references to Lorenzo in chanties are related. There will have been plenty of them of that name aboard I'm sure.
WG: Stan gives several possibilities for this name 'none of them convincing' in his opinion. See page 250 In SftSS. I'd be interested to see Gibb's take on this. His book hasn't got an index.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 02:02 PM

1874 J. Grey Jewell, M.D., "Among Our Sailors" (N.Y: Harper):

"When hauling up the foretop-sail yard, after reefing or shaking out the reefs, they sing a song of more pretensions, as follows :

"Lorenzo was no sailor —
(Chorus.) — Renzo, boys, Renzo !
He shipped on board a whaler —
Renzo, boys, Renzo !

He could not do his duty —
Renzo, boys, Renzo !
They took him to the gangway,   
And gave him eight and forty —    [missing line and/or chorus]
Renzo, boys, Renzo ! "

He sailed the Pacific Ocean—
Renzo, boys, Renzo !
Where'er he took a notion —
Renzo, boys, Renzo !

He finally got married,          [missing chorus]
And then at home he tarried —
Renzo, boys, Renzo !"


1886 Milwaukee Sentinel (Jan. 3):

"Renzo was no sailor,
My Renzo, boys, my Renzo,
An’ he shipped aboard a whaler,
My Renzo, boys, my Renzo."

1890 Journal Times (Racine, Wis.) (Oct. 25):

"[We] went down St. John’s harbor, Antigua, West Indies … past many small craft in course of lading and unlading…, their black crews, half naked, heaving and heaving on block and tackle, and swinging the great hogsheads out and in to the many inspiriting chorus chantee [sic] songs, wherein the pathetic ‘Lorenzo was a whaler’ was rather battered and discouraged by the swinging and sonorous ‘Blow the man down’; ‘Way down in Tennessee’ struggled for supremacy with ‘Phemie Brown.’”

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 02:36 PM

Nice stuff, Jon.


Yet another 'Brown' to join Sally, Shallo, presumably mainly to rhyme with town, down, sound, ground, bound, found, frown, round, etc..

The only other source I have for 'Way down in Tennessee' is Fowke, Sea Songs and Ballads of Nova Scotia' but I can't lay my hand to my copy at the moment.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 04:19 PM

yes Steve, What you say is right

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Jul 22 - 06:34 PM

Bert's whaling ship, 'Southern Empress', actually sailed out of Bromborough on Merseyside, and you can find an image or two online. Certainly not a ship requiring the services of a shantyman. In his notes for 'Leviathan', Bert claims that various crew members 'knew' some of the songs he presented on the LP, but I am pretty sceptical of whether he heard those songs on the whaler in the form he recorded them. He also claimed to have got songs - notably 'South Australia' and 'Off to Sea Once More' - from a singing group of old sailors from Barry - the Barry Riggers - who he met during the filming of 'Moby Dick'. I'm as certain as I can be that he made up the tune for 'Off to Sea'.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 22 - 04:52 AM

On a positive note, he improved the folk repertoire.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Jul 22 - 03:13 PM

I don't think anyone would wish to dispute that, Dick.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 07:07 AM

'I don't think anyone would wish to dispute that, Dick.'

I certainly wouldn't, either. I strongly suspect that, without Bert's improved versions of songs, the folk revival wouldn't have taken off at all. And they're still being sung today, by many younger singers and bands.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 09:20 PM

"Another [shanty], evidently of Southern origin, ran --

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 09:36 PM

Boston Evening Transcript (Apr. 13, 1892), in ref. to "American ships" in "the old days." The writer, "J.F.H.," appears to be personally familiar with operating a windlass and the rhythm of chanteys.


"Another [shanty], evidently of Southern origin, ran --

    Cararjo [sic], punetara!
    Baton Rouge and Bayou Sara!
    Arenzo, Arenzo, a-a-a !"

Punatera = "Damn it!"

Carajo = "Fuck it!"

Bayou Sara, La., was once a major Mississippi River port, especially before the Civil War. By 1927, the town had been abandoned due to repeated flooding.

It was about 30 miles northwest of the state capital at Baton Rouge.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jun 23 - 09:25 PM

The Evening News (Supplement) (Sydney, N.S.W.) (Feb. 4, 1893), p. 1:

"'General Jackson' was a favorite in American ships [many years ago]....

"Old 'Hickory' Jackson was a man that never stood at trifles,
       Ranzo, ranzo, ray - hooray!
At New Orleans John Bull got beans from old Kentucky rifles,
       Ranzo, ranzo, ray - hooray!"



The Independent (Lincoln, Neb.) (Apr. 25, 1901):

"The first presidential election we remember was that of General Jackson's second election in 1832....We remember one stanza of a song they sang:

'Suppose you all heard of the battle of New Orleans
Where our General Jackson gave the British beans.
There the Yankee boys did the job so slick,
Caught old Jackingahm [sic] and rode him up a crick.'"

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jun 23 - 09:11 AM

Again, "Zip Coon" sheet music (1834):

I suppose you heard ob de battle New Orleans,
Whar old Gineral Jackson gib de British beans.
Dare de Yankee boys do de job so slick,
For dey cotch old Packenham and rode him up de creek.


The earliest reference to "Zip Coon" appears to be in the Mississippi Free Trader (Natchez), Nov. 23, 1832.

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: sciencegeek
Date: 14 Jun 23 - 09:41 AM

both RR Terry and J Colcord noted differences in their versions and Terry had always been precise about where and how he had collected not just songs but often the version he had heard that he went with.

Since Colcord was American and the song seems to have travelled around it is not surprising that her version differed from those heard around the Newcastle dockside.

People love to play around with songs and tunes and I can't help but think of an old British drinking song given new words of "Oh say can you see" being sung in my old school yard, "Jose, can you see"      

that pesky folk process can be so messy

Subject: RE: 'Wild Goose Shanty (Ranzo)' background
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 03:18 PM

"Jose, can you see?" was the punchline of a joke I heard around 1960.

Seems a fellow named Jose was looking for a seat at a baseball game and was pleased that so many people were concerned that he had a good one.

I remember because I thought it was hilarious at the time.

A database search takes the line back to 1924.