Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?

Subject: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:34 PM

I am a singer/songwriter myself. I know that this term is widely used by a vast number of individuals whose styles, genres and tastes vary tremendously. Not only that, but in order to be a "good" singer/songwriter, an individual must be both a good singer and a good songwriter (and it would help if he/she could also play an instrument in a capable manner.)

Because of this wide variety of styles and competence, the use of the term "singer/songwriter" seems to have developed many negative aspects to it. Many club managers are reluctant to hire an unknown s/s because they know it will be difficult to bring an audience in to hear them. If someone is billed as Cajun, Celtic, Bluegrass, Country or any number of other genres, the paying customer knows what to expect. But not so with us singer/songwriters.

So my question to promoters and paying customers alike is, "How should we bill ourselves in order to better describe what we do?" I know this is hard to quantify, but I am sure there are many other singer/songwriter's out there who have the same problems as me when it comes to breaking into new markets and getting that first good break.

Thanks for your input,
Mike

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:31 PM

Mike this is a very difficult one, as you can see from the request for folk clubs in England thread that specifies a dislike of S/S.
When I started it was a badge of honour worn by people as diverse as McColl, Tawney, Paxton,McTell, Ochs etc, all with a knowledge of tradition but all dedicated to expanding its boundaries to include the modern day. I think this group still wears the badge with honour. Then, over the years, the introspective angst s/s appeared and the listener found them singing songs that expressed little of universal value or experience directly into their guitar's sound hole and then through to their navel. They've gradually eroded the good name that the previous generation worked to establish.
Now we're all tarred with the same brush and singer/songwriter is a badge of boredom as far as too many people are concerned. However, when they get to make the effort and see a Jez Lowe,Mike Silver, Pete Morton,Artisan etc they are usually hooked.
The only answer is to build up your audience from those who approach your work without prejudice. If it's good and outward looking and shows knowledge of what has gone before you will soon have a following.
In many ways, market forces rule in music as in everything else. Give 'em what they want and they'll buy it. The folk audience is very specific in what it wants and what it doesn't want, so study the work of the writers that world accepts and see if you fit. If you don't, no amount of pleading will get them to open the door to you no matter what you call yourself.
I've never called myself anything else but a singer and songwriter because that's what I do. In a way it's like racial prejudice, if you're a black doctor and save the life of a convinced racist you'll still not persuade them to stop judging the book by the cover!

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM

"songsmith" or "songwright"

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:44 PM

If you're building on a tradition, it's a little easier. I always thought of myself as someone who does traditional American folk and blues and my own stuff, too. Maybe that's not alwyas the way other perceive me (those who even know who I am,) but I never wanted to leave my love of traditional music behind. I've been working on the layout for the release of a CD of my last album, Handful of Songs, and because I have it in front of me, and there are 4 traditional songs on it. If you're trying to carry on a tradition, and are writing out of a love for it, whether it's cajun, blues, folk, celtic or the rest, a potential audience can get a feel for what your own songs might sound like.

Like in everything else, you reflect those things that you love most.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:05 PM

I see traditional music as providing the templates for what we do, which is mainly to offer character sketches and tell stories. The more popular ones also see themselves primarily as entertainers. Pete Morton still goes busking - a very effective cure for vanity and affectation among would be "artists". It does not seem to have harmed his writing much. Most of the better ones also offer songs which are humourous, or which have choruses which the audience will want to sing.
There are lots of good songwriters here, who are offering their pictures of the world. One of the commonest traits of the boring songwriters, is that they only offer pictures of themselves. There may be an interesting photographer somewhere who specialised in self portraits, but his work has never come to the attention of Mudcat.
On Saturday, at a concert of four earnest singer guitarists, someone muttered in irritation, "It is four people singing and talking about themselves!"

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:13 PM

My buddy Chandler Travis calls himself a "writer/songsinger" ~ that's the title of one of his albums ~ but I suppose that's not very helpful. It is amusing, though.

Chandler's no folkie; he plays electric guitar and leads a band featuring not only the usual bass and drums but also a full horn section. It wouldn't be correct or informative to describe his music as "rock," though, or even "pop"; the best label he's come up with "alternative dixieland," and the act is so humorous he could almost bill it as comedy rather than music. (He and his band have toured the US as George Carlin's opening act, and George is a longtime fan.)

Chandler has probably always faced the same problem Mike is describing: until you've seen and heard his work, there's no way to accurately (and enticingly) describe what to expect.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

I thought you meant singers that didn't sit easily under a genre label, like Randy Newman, or Michael Marra.
Hadn't looked at it from Harvey's viewpoint. Sorry to hear you sound a bit disillusioned Harvey, myself I think it's cyclical. I was at Glenfarg Folk Feast this weekend just gone, and Artisan [soon to be no more sadly] were there and the audience loved them, strangely enough the biggest response of the night was not to one of their own songs, but to Stan Rogers's Mary Ellen Carter.
Anyway Harvey you yourself don't fit into a niche, you are unique and we like you that way, so keep on keeping on.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:56 PM

I'm not in the least disillusioned and don't see how I gave that impression. In fact I was attempting just the opposite, offering a realistic appraisal of the problem of describing yourself as a singer/ songwriter when asked what it is you do. The expression carries baggage today that it never used to and I think the questioner is asking how to get the baggage removed. I don't really know, except to repeat what I posted. The baggage is carried by the listeners not the trad aware/artist/storyteller/character sketch/entertainer who is called a singer/ songwriter.And your example of Artisan's reception makes my point. If the audience check in their baggage they often get a great suprise.
And many thanks for the kind words!
Oh and my second album was called "Writer of songs". Maybe that's the explanation we s/s should use to pass the trade description act.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

The above was me.Sorry.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM

Thanks to all for your responses. Just for clarification, I am fairly well known and appreciated in Alaska. The audiences I have entertained at festivals and concerts for the past 12 years are familiar with my songs and I have no problem filling the seats when I do a show up here. My songs are being sung on 3 continents, I have signed many of my songs to music publishers, my songs have been recorded by other singers and I even have some of my songs being considered for a movie sound track. And, most importantly, audiences enjoy my show.

However, I am planning a trip to England in August, and I have run into MANY club owners who have declined to hire me as a guest, because they tell me that they cannot get their patrons to attend a singer/songwriter concert. I agree with Harvey that the "angst" S/S has really turned off many people who used to support original music. My purpose in starting this thread is to get some ideas of how to best describe myself so as not to turn on the automatic "I hate singer/songwriters" attitude of so many fans of folk music. Thanks, in advance, for your insights.

Best wishes,
Mike

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:18 PM

I've often joked that there are three types of musicians in this genre - folksingers, singer-songwriters and singer-song"whiners".   We need more of the first two!

I hate the fact that some organizations are so hung up on labels. When I first started my radio show 25 years ago, I never heard the term "singer-songwriter". McColl, Tawney, Paxton,McTell, and Ochs were folksingers.   If an artist writes a song that others will sing, that was a folk song. Sure the musicologists would disagree with that interpretation, but so what?

If you write it, if you sing it and if it is good - then it won't matter what you call yourself.   Just make sure they spell your name right on the check!

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: breezy
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM

Original documentarist, narrator and social commentator, an observer of life, chronicling occasions and events in traditional song and ballad form.

O K I'm a bit tongue in cheek,so now you writers sort it out for me.

I'm not a singer who writes his own,I have tried but accept that there are guys out there who do it better so I cherry pick so take heed, if your songs are sung by others then you may have a good song on your hands.

does this make me a Folksinger and you guys Folksinging-songwriters?

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: Burke
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM

Ron, 25 years ago I was discovering 'folk' and also did not really distinguish between those doing traditional music and singer/songwriters. When I first got access to e-mail I decided to see if I could catch up on who I hadn't heard of, etc. I got on a mailing list that was clear about being oriented toward s/s, I just didn't recognize what it meant. After buying a few recordings, attending a few concerts, and getting the sound feed from Kent State, I found I was not hearing music I liked.

Mike, I've become picky about what I go to & do try to read between the lines for if I'm going to like a singer/songwriter. If you want to sell yourself to me, I want to know much more specifically the kind of music you do. What instruments do you include? What tradition are you building on? Who sings yours songs; if it's someone I know & like, it's a great recommendation. Describe the kind of show you do. I have been to some great concerts where I did not really like the music all that much. They were entertaining because of the high energy of the performer, the between song patter was good & the songs told good stories even if they could have used better tunes.

Now I'm reminded, Jez Lowe is in town on Friday & I need to get a ticket. The e-mail I received about it has me sold.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:30 PM

Plenty of performers in the blues genre sing and write their own stuff, but they're not called "singer-songwriters," they're called "bluesmen" (or women). Lots of folks in the rock and pop field also write and perform their own material without having to take on the dreaded "s-s" label.

It's unfortunate that performers of original material in the folk/acoustic category have a more difficult time finding a suitable description for themselves. The fault can obviously be traced to a certain breed of navel-gazing self-pitying exhibitionists, but why? There must have been a market for that kind of stuff, or it never would have become so highly visible.

Is it feasible to turn the clock back 40 years and just call oneself simply a "folksinger," and let the fact that most or all of your folksongs are self-penned become gradually evident later?

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:40 PM

It is true that many think that when they see a performer billed as singer/songwriter, they are going to be treated to "a song I wrote 2 weeks ago about a guy a work who had on a yellow shirt" or something. This certainly isn't because all singer/songwriters subject us to such, but there are enough so the consumer is wary. I tend to agree with PoppaGator - since 99% of the time s/s CD's will be filed under "Folk" why not just call yourself a folksinger. It is also most likely that airplay of s/s material occurs on folk radio as opposed to top 40, blues, jazz, etc. It just seems that since s/s seems to fall into the Folk category, why not just call a spade a spade.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST,Susan Urban
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM

As a trad-based songwriter, I have struggled to come up with a description for what I do as opposed to the navel-gazers and diary-writers - "Literary Songwriter". Here is the description from my website:
What's a "Literary Songwriter"?
This is a term I came up with quite accidentally during a conversation where I was asked what kind of songs I write. Literary songs are tradition-based and have a definite beginning, middle and end. They often make use of literary devices like rhyme and scansion. A literary songwriter's songs explore a topic or an issue by looking out at the world, rather than by expressing his or her personal feelings. This is true even when the story or observation contained in the song is told in the first person, very much in the way of good fiction!

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriter's: Hard to Classify?
From: goodbar
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:11 AM

think of a wicked name for yourself like 'the alaska mike original music experience'

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:14 AM

Seems to me that the "songwriter" bit is what the singer/songwriter is most proud of (because it's the "clever" bit?), whereas for the potential audience it is the bit which causes most trepidation.

I have in the past had to sit through song after song which no doubt meant a lot to the songwriter, but which left the audience cold. I do believe audiences need a fair amount of familiarity to relate to - a sense of security almost. The fear on seeing "singer songwriter" advertised is that you may be faced by an evening of self indulgence on the part of the performer.

I would suggest "singer" or "singer/guitarist" (or whatever) so the audience will first assume a range of material, possibly both familiar and unfamiliar.

More specifically, in England, if I saw an unfamiliar "singer/songwriter" advertised, I probably wouldn't go. If it went on to say the guy was really big in Alaska, I still probably wouldn't go.

I suggest you advertise yourself as what you intend to do on stage - call yourself a songwriter only if you intend to write a song during your act.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:21 AM

Something that adds to the dreaded image is that you have a solo act with usually just a guitar, so the variety in sound is limited. Often singer/songwriters are not virtuoso guitarists. So if you find out that you don`t like their lyrics, your lost.
If you have at least a duo with a melody instrument there is at least the chance you like the music.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:25 AM

I think that is it. If I were going to promote Alaska Mike in the UK, I would say that he has a fine, deep voice, that he sings some very interesting and at times humourous songs and that he can hold the audience. For the purposes of selling the act, it is probably better not to mention the fact that he writes his own songs.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: breezy
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:53 AM

Alaska Mike will be playing in St Albans

He will be hosted by George Papavgeris.

if you are a singer looking for material they may be a source for you.

Burke :hope you get on O K with Jez Lowe I have often looked to him for material to perform, sometimes his humour is very subtle.

The Dubliners and Fairport have also covered him.

Goik : Artisan may have gone passed their sellby date,their songs mainly by Brian are rather philosophical and after a while fairly predictable, though to be fair they can vary.
they need a break, I'm sure and hope they will return sometime as all top bands do.
They do an excellent version Of Mary E C and IMHO they convey the emotion of the song far better than the author.

Dan Mckinnon sings it as a closer, he will be at Ampthill, Beds UK tonight at the White Hart Hotel

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:10 AM

a) Good man, Breezy: I'd hoped you might pick up on Alaska Mike.

b) I agree with PoppaGator: try "Folksinger". I seem to recall that Pete Morton - mentioned above as a songwriter - thinks of himself as a folksinger.

c) There are plenty of examples of North American folksingers who sing mostly their own stuff who have built a successful bridgehead into UK/Europe. James Keelaghan, Dana Robinson, Eileen McGann... It can be done! Good luck, Mike!

Hamish

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM

p.s. Just read the next thread http://207.103.108.105/thread.cfm?threadid=80356&messages=20 which contained "...neither of us can listen to most singer/songwriters."

I think I understand the problem, Mike.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:07 AM

Mike, it seems to me that what you have to do is get around in as wide a circle as you can, do your stuff, then at some later date do the same circuit again. Once the locals hear you they will come back, and bring their friends. Tom Paxton wasn't born famous, he did his time on the cross,so to speak.

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

All excellent suggestions and comments. Thanks to all who posted. I got a phone call from a music publisher yesterday asking if I had any Christmas songs. This same guy has signed several of my songs previously. He told me that he can't stand most singer-songwriters, but that many of my songs seem to have a universal quality that he could identify with. I was quite pleased with his comments. I'm sending him a copy of my recently penned song, "Christmas Without Snow".

I've also changed the heading on my website home page from Singer/Songwriter to Alaska Folksinger/Story Teller. Which I can certainly live with and which seems to better describe the stuff I do. I appreciate the help of my mudcat friends in England who have worked to get me several great gigs while I'm visiting there in August. I look forward to sharing my songs with many new friends. Thanks again for your fine comments.

Best wishes,
Mike

Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters: Hard to Classify?
From: Burke
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:04 PM

Mike, read any reviews of your that you can. The way others describe you will at the least give you pointers on what to emphasize. There might even be something quoteable.