Subject: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,Joe Strummer's Conscience Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:48 AM I read this Counterpunch interview with Mr. Bragg with alarm and concern. Is this what we've been reduced to for our "protest singers" in both the US and Britain? Are we really so blinded by a pathological hatred for "the enemy" (ie Tory, Conservative, Republican) that we can no longer find our way through the forest's trees to do what is right for our constituencies and the world, rather than what is most politically expedient in the moment? Where did it all go so wrong? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: The Shambles Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM I still get this terible shudder of fear and depression at the thought of any possibilty of another Tory Government - it is probably irrational - by it is there - never the less. The sad reality is that is what will be inflicted upon us - if the present Government are not returned. A choice between 'the Devil and the deep blue sea' it may be - but as the sea is blue and the Devil is red - I couldn't bear the thought of drowning in a sea of deep blue (the colour of the Tories). So I may not back him - but (deep down) I hope the Devil wins. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM So, you justify voting for pro-war candidates (effectively condemning more innocent people to the Blair/Bush slaughter), just to keep yourself safe from the Tories? Is that what we've come to? The people of Iraq be damned--we're keeping the Tories out and that's good enough for ME? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:09 AM That was me there. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: The Shambles Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:23 AM No one is rejoicing in this limited choice - but that is the sad reality - isn't it. But the Tories (at the time) were in full support for the war - were they not? Voting them back in now - will change little in Iraq. I am not justifying voting for pro-war candidates (I said I will back this Devil). I will be voting for the Respect Party locally and it will make no difference to the total outcome (even here in the seat with the smallest Labour majority. Sometimes, whatever egg you choose - turns out to be a bad one. If these eggs were all that was on offer - you would have to choose to eat the slightly less bad eggs - or die of stavation.....You may also die from eating the bad eggs....life is not easy. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,Jez Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM Michael Howard would have sent the troops to Iraq, on the grounds of regime change. He said so himself. And repeated it. We must vote for whoever will beat the Tories. For God's sake, can you remember the last time they were in? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM When there is nothing but bad choices, there is always the option to not participate in sham elections. We don't have to vote for one devil or the other, do we. Not voting can be done as a matter of conscience, so long as one makes sure to make a very public statement in the process. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Piers Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM Hasn't Bragg always been reactionary? Hasn't parliamentary democracy always been nothing more than a choice (if you can call it that) between evils? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: The Shambles Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:41 AM If you don't vote - you are still going to end-up with a Labour or Tory Govenment. There may be some hope that a Labour one may get better than they are currently - or be forced to. There is the rock-bottom certainty that a Tory one will only get worse. And the country with it. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM Yes, but if many people don't vote as a form of protest, a revolutionary movement might be born to fight the fascists. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM i am sick of listening you idealistic utopian middle class stoned hippies.. you are a liability.. and a danger to the future well being of all who lack the good fortune of your privilaged cossetted upbringing and 'education' trusting you with the hard fought for 'real world' responsibility to vote.. is like trusting my family and communities future to the whims of a playgroup of 3 year old toddlers who know and aspire for nothing else than to whine for ice creams and candy floss and to play forever with brightly coloured beach balls in a fairy land bouncy castle.. .. and btw.. was'nt joe strummer ultimately just another drug addled public school 'revolutionary'pop star |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:51 AM It wasn't so long ago Billy contributed this song to the "Peace Not War" effort: THE PRICE OF OIL Written and performed by Billy Bragg Produced by Billy Bragg & Simon Edwards (previously unreleased) © 2002 Billy Bragg voices on the radio tell us that we're going to war those brave men and women in uniform they want to know what they're fighting for the generals want to hear the end game the allies won't approve the plan but the oil men in the white house they just don't give a damn it's all about the price of oil it's all about the price of oil don't give me no shit about blood, sweat, tears and toil it's all about the price of oil now I ain't no fan of Saddam Hussein oh, please don't get me wrong if it's freeing the Iraqi people you're after then why have we waited so long why didn't we sort this out last time was he less evil than he is now the stock market holds the answer to why him, why here, why now Saddam killed his own people just like general Pinochet and once upon a time both these evil men were supported by the U.S.A. and whisper it, even Bin Laden once drank from America's cup just like that election down in Florida this shit doesn't all add up it's all about the price of oil 'cause it's all about the price of oil don't give me no shit about blood, sweat, tears and toil it's all about the price of oil _______________________________ What happened Billy? Why the rage against the wars of the American empire, but silence about the wars of the British? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM ps.. yes of course i'll be voting strategically for my local ineffectual tosser liberal candidate... to help maintain his very narrow margin of lead which keeps the real evil of the vampiristic parasite tories out.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,Michael Howard Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM I couldn't agree more. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:01 AM But are the Tories truly the bogeyman when New Labour does their dirty work for them? I think the system is fucked, and so are we if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that supporting a lesser evil/forward not back mentality is the morally right thing to do. It isn't, of course. It just makes us feel better about holding our noses while we sell our souls to vote "tactically" for ourselves, while damning the rest of the world to being bombed back to the stone age. And make no mistake about it--the rest of the world is damned in their relations with the likes of us now, aren't they? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM .. and as much as me and my mates have always liked and respected Billy Bragg [ and for that matter Joe Strummer ] Billy Bragg is only just another middle aged middle class dad who's eared enough ££££ out of the music industry to move his family to a nice house by the seaside.. .. he's not beyond criticism or reproach.. but in this instance his views on strategic voting are as timely and appropriate as his involvement in red wedge which at least attempted to ger young people to consider voting as their right to be used,/I> positively responsably to help improve living and working conditions for all who's lives were wreckedby the wicked economics of Thatchers tories.. [and probably still will be for at least a few more decades while labour tries to restabilise our economy and repair the ravages of the tories deeply rooted socio economic legacy].. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,Gordon Brown Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM I think the system is fucked, and so are we if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that supporting a lesser evil/forward not back mentality is the morally right thing to do The only choice - other than supporting a lesser evil this time - is watching whilst those supporting a greater evil - vote it in. I know this because - my good friend Tony - told me. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM Not very punk, anti-folk, or revolutionary of you though Gordon. "Billy Bragg is only just another middle aged middle class dad who's eared enough ££££ out of the music industry to move his family to a nice house by the seaside.. .. he's not beyond criticism or reproach.." So maybe if he showed a little less concern for Dorset dads being able to buy more local produce at the market and having Oona round for tea, and a little more concern for Baghdad mums picking schrapnel out of their malnourished children's backs, he might come off as less a hollow man. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:23 AM ok alright then.. if you clever moral highground hogging revolutionary peace 'n' love hippy idealists were ever to make such a hugely impressive public protest by your mass refusual to vote and engage in the nasty dirty realm of real life politics.. so impressive that it influences the rest of the voting public to follow your holy example and also abstain from the electoial process.. ok so just 'imagine... theres no voting..' so no politicians get elected... so great.. errr but what happens next.. the gates open to a utopian golden age for Great Britain.. every citizen suddenly becomes enpowered and 'comes together' in a nationwide self determining singing and dancing and hugging tribe of oneness and peacefull harmonious loving co-existence..?????? ..and who exactly will maintain the running of the nations infra structureand services while you lot are all out in the sun making daisy chains and smoking ganja..??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM I think you might just be drowning in your stereotyping proclivities there, sohw. Yer truly a man/woman of limited imagination and tremendous fear of the untried tactic. Thanks for sharing. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM ok then, GUEST,JSC you big smarty pants... and the nature and projected results of that "untried tactic" being...??????? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM Got a crystal ball that gives our future outcome under the next New Labour government down yer trousers do you? Didn't think so. You demand we all vote, and vote for complacency and a claim to certainty about the future outcome under another Blair government, when there is no such thing. Not voting no more puts us and the world in danger than voting does. In fact, I believe much better arguments can be made that voting for pro-war Blairites actually WILL put us all in graver danger than not voting for them will. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM stop provaricating GUEST,JSC .. what exactly is your 'untried tactic' intended to acheive..??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers.. Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:54 AM .. ok i just been reading the 'counterpunch' article.. written by; "Omar Waraich is an undergraduate at SOAS, University of London. He can be reached at omar.w@soas.ac.uk" well.. seems to me despite Omars attempt to discredit Billy Bragg.. Mr Bragg comes over as a well considered and experienced mature veteran of our generations struggle against the evil of the tories.. ..where as omar just sounds like a snide whining single issue anti war bleating little baby adolescent undergraduate.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM By starting a movement to not vote in sham elections, we might be able to get people to change their stuck mindsets and shift the political paradigm beyond the locked-in-mortal-combat nihilism of Labour/Lib Dem vs Torie/Conservative/BNP thinking. You got any better ideas on how to end the stalemate and start moving Britain and the world in the right direction? Besides this abomination of a voting appeasement strategy, that is? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM yes.. all very well GUEST,JSC.. but in such a highly imaginary scenario where the mass electorate refuse to vote.. just what exactly is supposed to happen afterwards ..????? errr.. stop acting like a politician GUEST,Joe Strummer's Conscience and please just indulge us with a sensible straight answer.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Tam the man Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM He's just doing what the Labour party has done for years sold out to the Tories. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM But back to the music and the musician here. I never intended this thread to be yet another drawn out battle with the Blair camp. JS himself backed the war in Afghanistan (perhaps you missed that ironic bit my user name), and jumped on the jingoist bandwagon before his death. I'm just asking why it seems all these purportedly 'left' leaning rebel rock musicians like Bragg (and Springsteen in the States) have chosen to be shills for mainstream politicians during election years. Surely rock celebrity is just as corrupting an influence as the millenia old aphrodisiac, political power? Both rock stardom and political stardom require huge egos. We seem to be free floating through this anxiety-prone era--voyeurist witnesses to the marriage of mainstream politician to mainstream rock star. In the process, we seem to have fallen prey to the worst sort of banal celebrity worship, the morphing of our progressive values into the "pragmatic" values and belief systems of said politico-rock stars, whose altars we worshipped at in our youth. The middle age folk and blues scene is just as guilty of this, IMO, as the middle age rebel rock/punk scene. Thing is, we aren't bringing the next generation with us--they are busy running the other way--away from us and our history. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM I never said the majority would refuse to vote. We just need a highly visible, politically radicalized vanguard movement to not vote, and explain in no uncertain terms to the Great Greying Middle Class (stand for nothing, take anything you can get for yourself) why we won't be voting with them. How can that tactic be any bleedin' worse than the "strategic" appeasement tactic being peddled to us by Mr. Bragg? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,now sick of any irritating wankers Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:41 AM perhaps we missed the oh so 'ironic bit in your "user" name' because you are so far up you own smug self satified clever arse !!! what you doing here.. practicing writing imaginary hip journalism articles for the NME..!!?? and you have the 'cheek' to criticsize other folks huge egos.. ps i never have liked Blair's new labour.. theres nothing blair or camp about me and my old lefty mates pal.. but its still better for a possibility for a progressive future for our UK to have conservative lite new labour than full blown evil tories ever back in power.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of all wankers[except me] Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:50 AM meant to write "conservative new labour atm for the time being [huh.. guessed you perhaps you missed that ironic bit using the cheap 'camp'gag to reference the gruff manly machismo of the old style working class labour party..] |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:23 PM The attempt by the Howard faction within the Tory Party to capitalise on racism and prejudice against Gypsies, and refugees and "economic migrants" indicate that letting the Tories back in would be opening the door to a nightmare. It'd undermine the hope that the Tories could rehabilate themselves, and turn into a decent party representing decent people, with whom I may disagree politically but amicably enough. For people in marginal Labour seats which could go Tory, there's a case for holding your nose and voting Labour, even when it might be for a loyal Blairite. But for any former Labour voter in the 58 Tory seats where the Lib Dem is the challenger, there is an opportunity to send Tony a message, and at the same time dish any Tory hopes of winning a majority in the Commons. And get rid of Michael Howard from the House of Commons as well, for a start, since he's one of those Tories depending on Labour voters sticking with Labour, if he's to have a chance to get re-elected. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM But Labour has been quietly and politely holding the multi-culti door closed so the "refugees" and immigrants of color couldn't come into the country or move into a middle class neighborhood anyway. At least the Tories are honest about locking them out, aren't they? Labour already has locked them out, but lies to us about it, using their PC multi-culti rhetoric. This is a significant difference? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM "But Labour has been quietly and politely holding the multi-culti door closed so the "refugees" and immigrants of color couldn't come into the country or move into a middle class neighborhood anyway." do they really...?? is that true then.. ?? hmmm.... |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:27 PM It's May 5th. I've got one vote. If I don't use it I cant complain. Women and men have died for it. All political choices are the better of evils. Billy's right, he's grown up. Anything slightly to the Left is better than the Tories. It's not the labour Party I'd like. I think the Lib Dems have the best policies and I'll be voting for them in my constituency because they already hold it. Tories are second and labour has no chance. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM Let's all go down the fiddler. Maybe red Ken will introduce Billy to the awaiting crowd. Yep there's Joe at the bar, looking cool. Say hello boys and girls to the red wedge tour. ZZZZZZZZ and then I woke up. But in the 80's it was real. Anyone else there? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Terry K Date: 01 May 05 - 02:55 AM But surely, if everyone is voting AGAINST someone, the result will be just the same as if everyone was voting FOR someone. The vote is all about trying to end up with what you want - or avoiding what you don't want, isn't it? A bloke in the pub (let's say) said to me that Blair bangs on about a "multicultural society" but that immigrants don't come here to join a multicultural society. They come here to live in Britain first and foremost, and in their own closed communities if they can. This bloke went on to say that though, for example, Alperton is a multicultural society, it's made up entirely from the rich mixture of cultures drawn from the Indian sub-Continent. Me, I don't really have a view, but I do feel I will have to make a protest vote against the lying bastard Blair and that fucking missus of his. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: The Shambles Date: 01 May 05 - 06:47 AM Islands and Oasis |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 08:11 AM Lads, we're in the music section discussing Billy Bragg, not the BS section discussing how we should vote, right? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,the political troubador Date: 01 May 05 - 09:07 AM "Lads, we're in the music section discussing Billy Bragg, not the BS section discussing how we should vote, right?" errrrrrrmmm.. well .. yes.. and... no... I'm sure this is what Mr Bragg would want us to be doing as a proper response to his 'musical' art.... |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 09:28 AM Getting back to the anti-war Bragg song I posted above--I don't know how one reconciles writing a song like that, taking political action to oppose the war, and then campaigning for those who support the war. Boggles me mind, because I really thought Bragg, of all people, had more personal integrity than that. I just cannot square the actions of the man who was an ardent and passionate opponent of the war, with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,cheers BILLY, I owe you one Date: 01 May 05 - 09:28 AM "Two-for-one offer for Lib Dem voters in Dorset" http://www.billybragg.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=264 " Much is at stake at this election. Anger with the Labour government over the Iraq war could result in Michael Howard running the country, says Billy. Labour could lose the election. Others call for a different outcome in which Labour get a 'bloody nose' winning with a vastly reduced majority. The trouble with that scenario is that most of the seats Labour loses will be to the Tories, creating a resurgent Conservative Party which believes that it will be further rewarded if it continues to stir up fear and prejudice. There is, however, a third outcome, in which the centre of gravity in British politics is shifted decisively to the left. If tactical voting causes the Tories to lose seats to the Lib Dems, then the Conservative Party would go into a tail-spin. The Lib Dems could emerge from this election with enough momentum to become the official opposition, forcing a Labour administration to tack to left of centre in order to deal with the perceived threat. The Lib Dems have already been able to influence Labour policy in this manner in the Scottish Parliament. For this to happen, however, it is crucial that Lib Dem supporters vote in unison with disillusioned Labour supporters as a progressive bloc – voting tactically to ensure that the Tories do not pick up any seats – voting together for left of centre government. " |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of mind boggled wankers Date: 01 May 05 - 09:35 AM boggles your mind does..!!??? then loosen the grip of severe tunnel vision on that poor little mind of yours.. and grow up and realise the complexity and apparent contradictions of reality.. ".. with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers. of course that's not what he is supporting you naieve mind boggled irritating little twat.." ooohh .. that feels better... now to go swat some flies.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 09:39 AM I fearlessly predict Billy Bragg's fortune telling about the upcoming election will be just as way off as Bruce Springsteen's was about John Kerry and the Democrats in the US election... "For this to happen, however, it is crucial that Lib Dem supporters vote in unison with disillusioned Labour supporters as a progressive bloc – voting tactically to ensure that the Tories do not pick up any seats – voting together for left of centre government." Talk about unrealistic! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 09:39 AM oops need to correct typing error.. ".. with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers." of course that's not what he is supporting you naieve mind boggled irritating little twat.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of mind boggled wankers Date: 01 May 05 - 09:42 AM so GUEST,JSC how much are the Tories paying you to persuade leftist inclined citizens not to vote.. ??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 09:55 AM Trotting out that lame old horse yet again? You must be very afraid of what it is I'm saying. Progressives in Britain can look to how effective the "vote strategically" tactic was in the last US election. The arguments for blindly supporting Labour and Lib Dems where it is "safe" to vote for them, is the exact same tactic taken by the right wing of the Democratic party in the US last year. Substitute "John Kerry" for "Tony Blair", "Democratic Party" for "Labour Party", and "Lib Dems" for "Ralph Nader" and/or "grassroots progressive Democrats" and you've got a perfect match. Something must change, because voting for the old war horses will change absolutely nothing. Whether you claim to be voting for Labour or against the Tories, the outcome is the same--same old shit. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Jim McLean Date: 01 May 05 - 09:59 AM Billy Bragg's tactical voting may be justified but playing for Oona King can not. As far as the Lib Lab pact in Scotland is concerned, we have Liberals in power (Second Minister and other posts) although they came third in the election. If the Tories had a similar result in the UK election as Labour had in Scotland, we could see the Liberals hand in hand with the Tories in Westminster and hand in hand with Labour in Scotland! They have just voted to make possible top up fees to be introduced in Scotland .. but Billy Bragg is going to vote for them. I remember seeing him on Question Time a while ago. The question of Scottish Devolution was raised and Billy Bragg said '.. if they want it we should give them it'. Note the WE. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 10:01 AM "I fearlessly predict Billy Bragg's fortune telling about the upcoming election will be just as way off as Bruce Springsteen's was about John Kerry and the Democrats in the US election..." well then you fearlessly mind boggled 5th columnist scab twat.. ..at least Billy Bragg and the left of centre unofficial anti-tory strategic voting alliance are tying to acheive something positive and constuctive and potentially progressive for UK society.. ... and sorry to need to ask the question again.. but what exactly are your plans for a realisable progresive future for our families, friends , communities , work conditions, etc.. ??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of being sick of... Date: 01 May 05 - 10:09 AM "Trotting out that lame old horse yet again? You must be very afraid of what it is I'm saying." nope.. just irritated... and dismayed.. and worried sick fools like you will stick me with a Tory MP for the forseeable future .. BTW GUEST,JSC why do you keep banging on about Bruce and the US election [and if I remember correctly, spell neighbourhood in a suspiciously American way... hmmmmmmmmmm...] ??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 10:25 AM Because I'm American? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 10:30 AM Thanks Jim, for seconding my disgust over Bragg's support for Oona King. As I said, I just can't square his support of her with his previously stated political positions. Which is why I asked if he had sold out--supporting King is pretty difficult to justify as anything other than just that. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 11:22 AM This one also seems appropriate for the times: Children of the revolution Kirsty MacColl Children of the revolution coming out to play Bombers ripped the night apart and blew the school away Some live on the south side and they overlook the water Some live on the north side and they're looking at the border And those children of the revolution see the soldiers come Smiling at the widows as they take away the sons Children of the revolution shot down with a brand new gun They're dropping down like flies and in their eyes The images of war are in their eyes They've seen it all before and know your lies Won't keep their bellies full In love and war there are no rules Children of the revolution getting off the boat To face the ignorance and prejudice that keep this land afloat Children of the revolution make a brand new start Running through the rubble of a thousand broken hearts and in their eyes All promises are broken in their eyes The words that can't be spoken and your lies Don't keep their bellies full In love and war there are no rules But in their eyes Murder comes by sea and from the skies It's shiny and it's quick to take their lives And it's cruel in love and war there are no rules Children of the revolution coming out to play Someone sells a gun and someone blows them all away Children of the revolution sold out by the banks Who swap the green upon the dollars for the green upon the tanks Children of the revolution shot down by a brand new gun |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 11:27 AM GUEST,JSC "As I said, I just can't square his support of her with his previously stated political positions." ..and thats your problem trying to understand the 'consistency' of other peoples complicated dynamic evolving motivations, activism, and statements through the miasma of your own severly restricting moral principles.. ..but what 'disgusts' me about people like you is your selfish insistence on parading yourslf to be 'right' at the cost of your abnegation of political responsibility for our wider community.. and apparent total disregard for the potentialy tory promoting consequences of your hell bent wish to convince other leftist citizens to not use their vote against the tories.. sad.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 11:31 AM There is a hell of a lot more to political and community responsibility than hating the Tories. Too bad you are so blinded by your hatred you can't see your way out of hate to a place that transcends party loyalties. It's called doing what your conscience dictates...like standing up for what you believe in, instead of voting against what you hate and fear. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of.. Date: 01 May 05 - 11:46 AM oh yes.. and what is that going to acheive after May the 5th if the tories get back in..!!!??? yes damn right I hate the tories.. hatred born from personal and community experience of their evil ideologies and economics.. ..not too keen on moralistically self indulgent people like you either |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 12:01 PM .. and for what its worth.. its a hatred that fuels an anger that politicizes for positive action.. .. not a hatred blind to other better options and strategies.. if and when we can make them possible and realisable.. certainly not blind adherence to paralysing inappropriate moralistic desertion from the real political power struggle that we're all [like it or not] neck deep in shit in.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 12:18 PM btw.. please explain why oona King is such a bad person.. and why your 'disgust' for a few individuals in new labour can justify your desire to replace a moderately 'progressive' Govt.. ..and consequently inflict a Tory prime minister on all of us in UK..?? thanks.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 12:24 PM I'd like to dedicate this one to you, sick of, and all the people like you who are anti-warriors...except at election time. NO MORE WAR! "The socialist songbook" No more shall we fight their battles, No more shall we go to war, O,let the high and mighty slaughter one another. We will wage their wars no more. NO MORE WAR! No more shall we make munitions, No more guns and poison gas; O,let the high and mighty slaughter one another. No more for the working class. NO MORE WAR! No more shall we serve as targets, No more slay our fellow men. 0, let the high and mighty slaughter one another. We'll not go to war again. NO MORE WAR! No more shall we shout their slogans, No more: now that we're awake. O, let the high and mighty slaughter one another. Let them taste the hell they make. NO MORE WAR! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 12:31 PM what is this .. sunday afternoon kareoke down the student union bar.. please just answer some effin questions JSC...!!!! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 12:33 PM I don't believe there is any danger of the Tories winning, or of a Tory PM any time soon, so that bogeyman card won't play. Also, did I mention that voting against what you hate and fear repeatedly while achieving the same result is rather counter-intuitve? And the Blair government progressive? Not even moderately. Conservative lite, yes. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 12:44 PM Another one for the sing-along (this IS a music thread after all) GUY FAWKES' TABLE Attila the Stockbroker I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table The day Parliament voted for war Though the mass of the people oppose it And it flouts international law I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table While American thugs flaunt their power Egged on by a sad little muppet And his craven and cowardly shower. Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead And the time for a new one is nigh Will the last person Left please turn out the lights? New Labour, we're saying goodbye. They won't be caught up in the carnage They'll be pontificating right here Their kids won't be Iraqi conscripts Moved down while they're shitting with fear No thought for the Kurds in the north zone When the Turks come to do as they will For they are American allies And they'll come with a licence to kill..... Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead And the time for a new one is nigh Will the last person Left please turn out the lights? New Labour, we're saying goodbye. I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table As Bush and his muppet connive And I'm filled with unspeakable anger And I'm thinking of 1605 One message, Dishonourable Members Who endorsed an illegal attack - No, I don't want to bomb you like Guy did But I'd love to send you to Iraq. Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead And the time for a new one is nigh Will the last person Left please turn out the lights? New Labour, we're saying goodbye. We need a new socialist party - But not the Judean People's Front Not another small sect, but a movement With the power to change and confront We need an electoral system Which gives every voter a voice 'Cos we're fed up with voting for traitors And we have the right to a choice! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 01:24 PM The Times They Are A-Changin Come gather round people wherever you advertise And admit that the sixties sells Chryslers and fries And accept it that money don't talk, it just lies If your bottom line is worth savin Then you better start skimmin all the anthems we've known For the stocks, they are exchangin Hokey Pokey You take the issues out, you put emotions in You take yourself out of the loop And you doctor up a spin You do some mumbo-jumbo and you turn your views around That's what it's all about |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of ......... Date: 01 May 05 - 01:36 PM "I don't believe there is any danger of the Tories winning, or of a Tory PM any time soon, so that bogeyman card won't play." me neither.. fingers crossed however, where i live, the local Lib MP is only a handfull of votes away from being displaced by a TORY !!! and labour wil probably never stand a chance of being elected.. so in my local constituency, the influence of people with misguided ideas like yours makes me very worried.. .. put bluntly [metaphorically speaking of course..] if 'you' cause me to be inflicted by life under a tory MP.. i might just probably cause you a bloody nose and bruised bollocks if we ever meet in person afterwards... so I WILL vote strategically against the tories.. not because i have any great love for blairs cowardly new labour or ginger bloated blokes ineffectual liberals BTW.. good song.. i've gigged with attilla.. he's a good pal of a mate of mine.. .. but can we please just concentrate in the short term on crushing the Tory party.. ..then over the next decade [or much more] we can fight to reclaim a better leftist 'party' from the best of whats left.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 01 May 05 - 01:41 PM Sorry, but since I'm not a resident of yer local district, I don't think I'll be responsible for a Tory being elected there. Pretzel logic, that. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,sick of pedantic cleverclogs Date: 01 May 05 - 01:47 PM people like 'you'.. you big silly revolutionary 'you'.. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 01:51 PM and please answer why you dont like oona king..!!!!???? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Frankham Date: 01 May 05 - 02:53 PM I couldn't find the article. I saw another one that really made me upset on the same blog. Howard Dean says "we can't get out now." and that he hopes that Bush is successful in his mission over there. What!!!!? Re Bragg: I always had a reservation about him since Mermaid Avenue. I don't think Woody would have liked where Bragg is going and I'm not sure he would have liked what Bragg did to his tunes. Just an opinion by someone who knew Woody. Frank |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Dave Hanson Date: 02 May 05 - 05:10 AM I've just looked at this thread and another one with the same number of posts, why is this one nearly all GUEST posts and not members ? eric |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Jim McLean Date: 02 May 05 - 06:13 AM Some people are frightened to associate themselves with and opinion, Eric. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,ray Date: 02 May 05 - 06:41 AM Sorry - not a member...yet. Just droppoed in on this thread. What is the particular problem with oona King? Just how many young black jewish women are there out there who have also made it to be an MP? How progressive is it to target her for some special vilification? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Jim McLean Date: 02 May 05 - 07:27 AM The thread is about Billy Bragg who is against the war in Irag but recently openly supported Oona King who is for the war. No special attack on Ms King except for her political beliefs |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,JSC Date: 02 May 05 - 08:47 AM That's correct Jim. And I would add, just because she is black and Jewish doesn't make her progressive or even liberal (she isn't, IMO), so why would progressives support her? Because she is black, Jewish, and female? I don't think so! As to "just guests" do you really want to go there gents? Many long time contributors here have always been "just guests" and claiming that they are guests because they don't want to stand by their opinions is ridiculous. People have many reasons for not taking cookies from internet chat forums, one very good one being the security of their computers. I'm also not such an egomaniac that I think my opinion is such hot shit that everyone needs to know it's mine. Others mileage may vary, of course. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Ramblingsid Date: 02 May 05 - 04:01 PM To me the nub of this argument is very simple. I think that those that wish to occupy the moral high ground should stop and consider that, while they may be prosperous enough to be able to contemplate another tory government and all its cuts in public services, there are many in this country who are not and for whom the Tories winning the election on Thusday would be a personal disaster. I believe that when making their decision the electorate are entitled to consider the future of health education sure start etc etc are the issues of primary importance to us. Mistakes may or may not have been made by the Labour Government post 9/11 - history will tell. In the meantime I am more than happy to support a government whose values and policies are intended to be for the benefit of the many and the fight against a tory philosophy that is based upon privelige for the few. Thank you. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Terry K Date: 03 May 05 - 03:45 AM Sid, you're rambling again. You can't possibly support the current regime based on traditional stereotypes because they simply do not fit the traditional Labour stereotype. Support them by all means, but please base your support on something material. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 May 05 - 10:23 AM The more I read here, the more I think I'll be voting Monster Raving Loony Party.... after all, their policies have formerly included all day opening for pubs and passports for pets - both policies that were approved and credit taken by other parties..... LTS |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 03 May 05 - 11:03 AM As well as building a huge dome over Britain to keep out the rain, whats next the abolishen of slavery??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: shepherdlass Date: 03 May 05 - 01:37 PM The sad thing is that if Billy votes New Labour he won't be keeping out the Tories. New Labour is fundamentally Thatcherism with a few social justice bells and whistles to keep their once-core supporters quiet. Haven't noticed the restoration of that many REAL benefits for the many at the expense of the few: even the lovely Gordon's much-quoted Child Benefit increase didn't benefit parents on Income Support (the means testers just take it off at the other end). Sorry, this is turning back into a BS thread, but I worry that the thought of keeping a group of people from power because they bear a certain name means that we vote in people with near identical principles and a name we like more. Yours An ex-Labour stalwart |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:19 AM Bragg is a sell-out charlatan. Not to mention a very poor artist, if that is the right word. Why have folk lovers entertained thig guy for so long? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,defender of the Bragg Date: 08 Mar 06 - 07:07 AM Bragg is only human, he's got every right to be as much a two faced misguided cunt as the rest of us. ..as for the quality of his artistry, are you any better and getting as much work & money as he is for it ? ..thought not! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:35 AM are you any better and getting as much work & money as he is for it ? And there speaks the new capitalist face of Billy Bragg! Socialist Front Unite My Arse. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,defender of the bragg Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:45 AM He is ex army you freak and a talented singer, a better man than you will ever be! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:46 AM Erm...ex army, oh yes...his parents paid £175.00 for him to leave after ONE MONTH! Oh yes, he's a hero. |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:45 AM Well said, Shepherdlass, New-Labour = New-Tory. Our fundamental problem is that we do NOT live in a democracy. A democracy is where your vote counts. (See a dictionary). Our constituency system is set up to stifle any and all minor opinions and skews the result so much that only 2 parties have a chance of winning. And when those 2 parties are virtually indistinguishable......what's the point? And then they wonder why young people don't vote! Emigrate, I say....but where to....they're just as bad....oh b*gger! |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST,Billy Braggs an alright bloke mate, innit ! Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:35 AM oi guest mate you seem to be more concerned about Billy Bragg than is normal or healthy.. you a disillusioned fan..? was he to busy to sign your autograph book last time you saw him ? or are you a deranged stalker with a court order out on you to keep a safe distance from him ?? or what ??? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:22 PM Well anyone who doesn't like Bragg MUST by default be a stalker, dissulsioned fan... bragg is crap. i mean, c'mon, listen to his 'music' he is utter crap and i don't liek folkies who persist on putting this man on a pedastal of folk, when frankly, there are far better artists down my local. He is a charlatan. Oh but i must not forget he is a hero, ex army and all, you know, one month and £175 and he was out of there. perhaps his fellow squaddies thought less of his music than he thought of them? |
Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg??? From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM Whey ye bugga! Aah thowt aah wez the ownly porson in the country what cudden't stand the two-faced little oik Aah knaa loads of folkies and others whe've spent years and years in the armed forces and doon mines and in shipyards workin' damned hard te mek a livin' while him and his like prattle on aboot 'the workin' man' Billy Bragg waddent knaa a workin' man if he kicked his talentless skinny arse. And..... Aah divvent knaa whe thinks that Bragg is a 'FOLK' legend -Carthy is a legend, Swarbrick is a legend, Scan Tester, Billie Pigg, THEY wez legends!!! Billie Bragg?? Legend? My arse! He lives in a mansion on a cliff-top in Dorset And.....While we're on the subject! Has anybody heard a word of apology from Pete Coe about that piece of tat "We'll Have A May-Day Then" Aye pal!! Aall the may-days since 1997 are blighted - The culture secretary who thinks England dizzent have a culture - The Labour government who have ruined entertainment for the 'folk of this country at every turn, AND.... Tessa Bloody Jowell (Aye THAT culture secretary) got away with it AGAIN!!! They've aal got their fingers in a pot somewhere And..... And.... ....and John Prescott - Say nee mair!! |
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