The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???

Subject: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Joe Strummer's Conscience
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:48 AM

I read this Counterpunch interview with Mr. Bragg with alarm and concern.

Is this what we've been reduced to for our "protest singers" in both the US and Britain?

Are we really so blinded by a pathological hatred for "the enemy" (ie Tory, Conservative, Republican) that we can no longer find our way through the forest's trees to do what is right for our constituencies and the world, rather than what is most politically expedient in the moment?

Where did it all go so wrong?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

I still get this terible shudder of fear and depression at the thought of any possibilty of another Tory Government - it is probably irrational - by it is there - never the less.

The sad reality is that is what will be inflicted upon us - if the present Government are not returned. A choice between 'the Devil and the deep blue sea' it may be - but as the sea is blue and the Devil is red - I couldn't bear the thought of drowning in a sea of deep blue (the colour of the Tories).

So I may not back him - but (deep down) I hope the Devil wins.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM

So, you justify voting for pro-war candidates (effectively condemning more innocent people to the Blair/Bush slaughter), just to keep yourself safe from the Tories? Is that what we've come to? The people of Iraq be damned--we're keeping the Tories out and that's good enough for ME?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:09 AM

That was me there.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:23 AM

No one is rejoicing in this limited choice - but that is the sad reality - isn't it.

But the Tories (at the time) were in full support for the war - were they not? Voting them back in now - will change little in Iraq.

I am not justifying voting for pro-war candidates (I said I will back this Devil). I will be voting for the Respect Party locally and it will make no difference to the total outcome (even here in the seat with the smallest Labour majority.

Sometimes, whatever egg you choose - turns out to be a bad one. If these eggs were all that was on offer - you would have to choose to eat the slightly less bad eggs - or die of stavation.....You may also die from eating the bad eggs....life is not easy.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Jez
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

Michael Howard would have sent the troops to Iraq, on the grounds of regime change. He said so himself. And repeated it.

We must vote for whoever will beat the Tories. For God's sake, can you remember the last time they were in?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

When there is nothing but bad choices, there is always the option to not participate in sham elections. We don't have to vote for one devil or the other, do we. Not voting can be done as a matter of conscience, so long as one makes sure to make a very public statement in the process.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Piers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM

Hasn't Bragg always been reactionary?
Hasn't parliamentary democracy always been nothing more than a choice (if you can call it that) between evils?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:41 AM

If you don't vote - you are still going to end-up with a Labour or Tory Govenment.

There may be some hope that a Labour one may get better than they are currently - or be forced to. There is the rock-bottom certainty that a Tory one will only get worse. And the country with it.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM

Yes, but if many people don't vote as a form of protest, a revolutionary movement might be born to fight the fascists.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

i am sick of listening you idealistic utopian middle class stoned hippies..

you are a liability..


and a danger to the future well being of all
who lack the good fortune
of your privilaged cossetted upbringing and 'education'



trusting you with the hard fought for 'real world'
responsibility to vote..

is like trusting my family and communities future

to the whims of a playgroup of 3 year old toddlers who know and aspire for nothing else
than to whine for ice creams and candy floss
and to play forever
with brightly coloured beach balls in a fairy land bouncy castle..

.. and btw.. was'nt joe strummer ultimately just another drug addled public school 'revolutionary'pop star

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:51 AM

It wasn't so long ago Billy contributed this song to the "Peace Not War" effort:

THE PRICE OF OIL
Written and performed by Billy Bragg
Produced by Billy Bragg & Simon Edwards
(previously unreleased)
© 2002 Billy Bragg

voices on the radio
tell us that we're going to war
those brave men and women in uniform
they want to know what they're fighting for
the generals want to hear the end game
the allies won't approve the plan
but the oil men in the white house
they just don't give a damn

it's all about the price of oil
it's all about the price of oil
don't give me no shit
about blood, sweat, tears and toil
it's all about the price of oil
now I ain't no fan of Saddam Hussein
oh, please don't get me wrong
if it's freeing the Iraqi people you're after
then why have we waited so long
why didn't we sort this out last time
was he less evil than he is now
the stock market holds the answer
to why him, why here, why now

Saddam killed his own people
just like general Pinochet
and once upon a time both these evil men
were supported by the U.S.A.
and whisper it, even Bin Laden
once drank from America's cup
just like that election down in Florida
this shit doesn't all add up
it's all about the price of oil
'cause it's all about the price of oil
don't give me no shit
about blood, sweat, tears and toil
it's all about the price of oil
_______________________________

What happened Billy? Why the rage against the wars of the American empire, but silence about the wars of the British?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

ps.. yes of course i'll be voting strategically for my local ineffectual tosser liberal candidate...


to help maintain his very narrow margin of lead
which keeps the real evil of the vampiristic parasite tories out..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Michael Howard
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

I couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:01 AM

But are the Tories truly the bogeyman when New Labour does their dirty work for them?

I think the system is fucked, and so are we if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that supporting a lesser evil/forward not back mentality is the morally right thing to do. It isn't, of course. It just makes us feel better about holding our noses while we sell our souls to vote "tactically" for ourselves, while damning the rest of the world to being bombed back to the stone age. And make no mistake about it--the rest of the world is damned in their relations with the likes of us now, aren't they?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM

.. and as much as me and my mates have always liked and respected Billy Bragg

[ and for that matter Joe Strummer ]

Billy Bragg is only just another middle aged middle class dad
who's eared enough ££££ out of the music industry to move his family to a nice house by the seaside..


.. he's not beyond criticism or reproach..



but in this instance his views on strategic voting
are as timely and appropriate
as his involvement in red wedge
which at least attempted to ger young people to consider voting
as their right to be used,/I> positively responsably

to help improve living and working conditions for all
who's lives were wreckedby the wicked economics of Thatchers tories..

[and probably still will be for at least a few more decades while labour tries to restabilise our economy and repair the ravages of the tories deeply rooted socio economic legacy]..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Gordon Brown
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM

I think the system is fucked, and so are we if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that supporting a lesser evil/forward not back mentality is the morally right thing to do

The only choice - other than supporting a lesser evil this time - is watching whilst those supporting a greater evil - vote it in.

I know this because - my good friend Tony - told me.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM

Not very punk, anti-folk, or revolutionary of you though Gordon.

"Billy Bragg is only just another middle aged middle class dad
who's eared enough ££££ out of the music industry to move his family to a nice house by the seaside..

.. he's not beyond criticism or reproach.."

So maybe if he showed a little less concern for Dorset dads being able to buy more local produce at the market and having Oona round for tea, and a little more concern for Baghdad mums picking schrapnel out of their malnourished children's backs, he might come off as less a hollow man.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:23 AM

ok alright then..

if you clever moral highground hogging revolutionary peace 'n' love hippy idealists

were ever to make such a hugely impressive public protest
by your mass refusual to vote and engage in the nasty dirty realm
of real life politics..

so impressive that it influences the rest of the voting public to follow your holy example and also abstain from the electoial process..

ok so just 'imagine... theres no voting..'


so no politicians get elected...


so great..
errr but what happens next..

the gates open to a utopian golden age for Great Britain..

every citizen suddenly becomes enpowered and 'comes together'
in a nationwide self determining singing and dancing and hugging
tribe of oneness and peacefull harmonious loving co-existence..??????


..and who exactly will maintain the running of the nations
infra structureand services

while you lot are all out in the sun making daisy chains
and smoking ganja..???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM

I think you might just be drowning in your stereotyping proclivities there, sohw. Yer truly a man/woman of limited imagination and tremendous fear of the untried tactic. Thanks for sharing.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM

ok then, GUEST,JSC you big smarty pants...

and the nature and projected results of that "untried tactic"

being...???????

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM

Got a crystal ball that gives our future outcome under the next New Labour government down yer trousers do you?

Didn't think so. You demand we all vote, and vote for complacency and a claim to certainty about the future outcome under another Blair government, when there is no such thing. Not voting no more puts us and the world in danger than voting does.

In fact, I believe much better arguments can be made that voting for pro-war Blairites actually WILL put us all in graver danger than not voting for them will.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM

stop provaricating GUEST,JSC ..

what exactly is your 'untried tactic' intended to acheive..???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers..
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:54 AM

.. ok i just been reading the 'counterpunch' article..

written by;

"Omar Waraich is an undergraduate at SOAS, University of London. He can be reached at [e-mail]"

well.. seems to me despite Omars attempt to discredit Billy Bragg..


Mr Bragg comes over as a well considered and experienced mature veteran of our generations struggle against the evil of the tories..


..where as omar just sounds like a snide whining single issue anti war bleating
little baby adolescent undergraduate..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

By starting a movement to not vote in sham elections, we might be able to get people to change their stuck mindsets and shift the political paradigm beyond the locked-in-mortal-combat nihilism of Labour/Lib Dem vs Torie/Conservative/BNP thinking.

You got any better ideas on how to end the stalemate and start moving Britain and the world in the right direction? Besides this abomination of a voting appeasement strategy, that is?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

yes.. all very well GUEST,JSC..


but in such a highly imaginary scenario where the mass electorate

refuse to vote..


just what exactly is supposed to happen afterwards ..?????


errr.. stop acting like a politician GUEST,Joe Strummer's Conscience

and please just indulge us with a sensible straight answer..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Tam the man
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM

He's just doing what the Labour party has done for years sold out to the Tories.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM

But back to the music and the musician here. I never intended this thread to be yet another drawn out battle with the Blair camp.

JS himself backed the war in Afghanistan (perhaps you missed that ironic bit my user name), and jumped on the jingoist bandwagon before his death.

I'm just asking why it seems all these purportedly 'left' leaning rebel rock musicians like Bragg (and Springsteen in the States) have chosen to be shills for mainstream politicians during election years.

Surely rock celebrity is just as corrupting an influence as the millenia old aphrodisiac, political power? Both rock stardom and political stardom require huge egos. We seem to be free floating through this anxiety-prone era--voyeurist witnesses to the marriage of mainstream politician to mainstream rock star. In the process, we seem to have fallen prey to the worst sort of banal celebrity worship, the morphing of our progressive values into the "pragmatic" values and belief systems of said politico-rock stars, whose altars we worshipped at in our youth.

The middle age folk and blues scene is just as guilty of this, IMO, as the middle age rebel rock/punk scene. Thing is, we aren't bringing the next generation with us--they are busy running the other way--away from us and our history.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

I never said the majority would refuse to vote. We just need a highly visible, politically radicalized vanguard movement to not vote, and explain in no uncertain terms to the Great Greying Middle Class (stand for nothing, take anything you can get for yourself) why we won't be voting with them.

How can that tactic be any bleedin' worse than the "strategic" appeasement tactic being peddled to us by Mr. Bragg?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,now sick of any irritating wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:41 AM

perhaps we missed the oh so 'ironic bit in your "user" name'

because you are so far up you own smug self satified clever arse !!!


what you doing here..

practicing writing imaginary hip journalism articles for the NME..!!??

and you have the 'cheek' to criticsize other folks huge egos..


ps i never have liked Blair's new labour..

theres nothing blair or camp about me and my old lefty mates pal..


but its still better for a possibility for a progressive future for our UK
to have conservative lite new labour than full blown evil tories
ever back in power..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of all wankers[except me]
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:50 AM

meant to write "conservative new labour atm for the time being


[huh.. guessed you perhaps you missed that ironic bit using the
cheap 'camp'gag to reference the gruff manly machismo of the old style
working class labour party..]

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:23 PM

The attempt by the Howard faction within the Tory Party to capitalise on racism and prejudice against Gypsies, and refugees and "economic migrants" indicate that letting the Tories back in would be opening the door to a nightmare.

It'd undermine the hope that the Tories could rehabilate themselves, and turn into a decent party representing decent people, with whom I may disagree politically but amicably enough.

For people in marginal Labour seats which could go Tory, there's a case for holding your nose and voting Labour, even when it might be for a loyal Blairite. But for any former Labour voter in the 58 Tory seats where the Lib Dem is the challenger, there is an opportunity to send Tony a message, and at the same time dish any Tory hopes of winning a majority in the Commons.

And get rid of Michael Howard from the House of Commons as well, for a start, since he's one of those Tories depending on Labour voters sticking with Labour, if he's to have a chance to get re-elected.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM

But Labour has been quietly and politely holding the multi-culti door closed so the "refugees" and immigrants of color couldn't come into the country or move into a middle class neighborhood anyway. At least the Tories are honest about locking them out, aren't they? Labour already has locked them out, but lies to us about it, using their PC multi-culti rhetoric.

This is a significant difference?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

"But Labour has been quietly and politely holding the multi-culti door closed so the "refugees" and immigrants of color couldn't come into the country or move into a middle class neighborhood anyway."


do they really...??


is that true then.. ??

hmmm....

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:27 PM

It's May 5th. I've got one vote. If I don't use it I cant complain. Women and men have died for it.
All political choices are the better of evils. Billy's right, he's grown up. Anything slightly to the Left is better than the Tories.
It's not the labour Party I'd like. I think the Lib Dems have the best policies and I'll be voting for them in my constituency because they already hold it. Tories are second and labour has no chance.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM

Let's all go down the fiddler. Maybe red Ken will introduce Billy to the awaiting crowd. Yep there's Joe at the bar, looking cool. Say hello boys and girls to the red wedge tour. ZZZZZZZZ and then I woke up. But in the 80's it was real. Anyone else there?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Terry K
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:55 AM

But surely, if everyone is voting AGAINST someone, the result will be just the same as if everyone was voting FOR someone. The vote is all about trying to end up with what you want - or avoiding what you don't want, isn't it?

A bloke in the pub (let's say) said to me that Blair bangs on about a "multicultural society" but that immigrants don't come here to join a multicultural society. They come here to live in Britain first and foremost, and in their own closed communities if they can.

This bloke went on to say that though, for example, Alperton is a multicultural society, it's made up entirely from the rich mixture of cultures drawn from the Indian sub-Continent.

Me, I don't really have a view, but I do feel I will have to make a protest vote against the lying bastard Blair and that fucking missus of his.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:47 AM

Islands and Oasis

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:11 AM

Lads, we're in the music section discussing Billy Bragg, not the BS section discussing how we should vote, right?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,the political troubador
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:07 AM

"Lads, we're in the music section discussing Billy Bragg, not the BS section discussing how we should vote, right?"

errrrrrrmmm.. well .. yes.. and... no...



I'm sure this is what Mr Bragg would want us to be doing as a proper response to his
'musical' art....

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:28 AM

Getting back to the anti-war Bragg song I posted above--I don't know how one reconciles writing a song like that, taking political action to oppose the war, and then campaigning for those who support the war.

Boggles me mind, because I really thought Bragg, of all people, had more personal integrity than that. I just cannot square the actions of the man who was an ardent and passionate opponent of the war, with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,cheers BILLY, I owe you one
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:28 AM

"Two-for-one offer for Lib Dem voters in Dorset"

http://www.billybragg.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=264

" Much is at stake at this election. Anger with the Labour government over the Iraq war could result in Michael Howard running the country, says Billy.

Labour could lose the election.

Others call for a different outcome in which Labour get a 'bloody nose' winning with a vastly reduced majority. The trouble with that scenario is that most of the seats Labour loses will be to the Tories, creating a resurgent Conservative Party which believes that it will be further rewarded if it continues to stir up fear and prejudice.

There is, however, a third outcome, in which the centre of gravity in British politics is shifted decisively to the left.

If tactical voting causes the Tories to lose seats to the Lib Dems, then the Conservative Party would go into a tail-spin. The Lib Dems could emerge from this election with enough momentum to become the official opposition, forcing a Labour administration to tack to left of centre in order to deal with the perceived threat. The Lib Dems have already been able to influence Labour policy in this manner in the Scottish Parliament.

For this to happen, however, it is crucial that Lib Dem supporters vote in unison with disillusioned Labour supporters as a progressive bloc – voting tactically to ensure that the Tories do not pick up any seats – voting together for left of centre government. "

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of mind boggled wankers
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:35 AM

boggles your mind does..!!???


then loosen the grip of severe tunnel vision on that poor little mind of yours..


and grow up


and realise the complexity and apparent contradictions of reality..



".. with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers.



of course that's not what he is supporting
you naieve mind boggled irritating little twat.."




ooohh .. that feels better...


now to go swat some flies..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:39 AM

I fearlessly predict Billy Bragg's fortune telling about the upcoming election will be just as way off as Bruce Springsteen's was about John Kerry and the Democrats in the US election...

"For this to happen, however, it is crucial that Lib Dem supporters vote in unison with disillusioned Labour supporters as a progressive bloc – voting tactically to ensure that the Tories do not pick up any seats – voting together for left of centre government."

Talk about unrealistic!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:39 AM

oops need to correct typing error..



".. with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers."




of course that's not what he is supporting
you naieve mind boggled irritating little twat..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of mind boggled wankers
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:42 AM

so GUEST,JSC

how much are the Tories paying you to persuade
leftist inclined citizens not to vote.. ???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:55 AM

Trotting out that lame old horse yet again? You must be very afraid of what it is I'm saying.

Progressives in Britain can look to how effective the "vote strategically" tactic was in the last US election. The arguments for blindly supporting Labour and Lib Dems where it is "safe" to vote for them, is the exact same tactic taken by the right wing of the Democratic party in the US last year. Substitute "John Kerry" for "Tony Blair", "Democratic Party" for "Labour Party", and "Lib Dems" for "Ralph Nader" and/or "grassroots progressive Democrats" and you've got a perfect match.

Something must change, because voting for the old war horses will change absolutely nothing. Whether you claim to be voting for Labour or against the Tories, the outcome is the same--same old shit.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:59 AM

Billy Bragg's tactical voting may be justified but playing for Oona King can not. As far as the Lib Lab pact in Scotland is concerned, we have Liberals in power (Second Minister and other posts) although they came third in the election. If the Tories had a similar result in the UK election as Labour had in Scotland, we could see the Liberals hand in hand with the Tories in Westminster and hand in hand with Labour in Scotland! They have just voted to make possible top up fees to be introduced in Scotland .. but Billy Bragg is going to vote for them. I remember seeing him on Question Time a while ago. The question of Scottish Devolution was raised and Billy Bragg said '.. if they want it we should give them it'. Note the WE.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:01 AM

"I fearlessly predict Billy Bragg's fortune telling about the upcoming election will be just as way off as Bruce Springsteen's was about John Kerry and the Democrats in the US election..."

well then you fearlessly mind boggled 5th columnist scab twat..


..at least Billy Bragg and the left of centre unofficial anti-tory
strategic voting alliance
are tying to acheive something positive and constuctive
and potentially progressive
for UK society..

... and sorry to need to ask the question again..



but what exactly are your plans for a realisable progresive future
for our families, friends , communities , work conditions, etc.. ???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of being sick of...
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:09 AM

"Trotting out that lame old horse yet again? You must be very afraid of what it is I'm saying."


nope.. just irritated... and dismayed..

and worried sick fools like you will stick me with a Tory MP
for the forseeable future



.. BTW GUEST,JSC why do you keep banging on about Bruce and the US election

[and if I remember correctly, spell neighbourhood in a suspiciously
American way... hmmmmmmmmmm...]
???