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Competitions in Folk related activities
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Subject: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Mo Bradshaw Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:55 AM I am studying for an MA in Folklore and Cultural Tradition at NATCECT (National Centre for English Cultural Tradition) at the University of Sheffield. I am currently carrying out research for my dissertation, and wondered if any members of this forum would like to contribute. My research question is 'Do competitions play a significant role in maintaining tradition and/or improving standards within the Folk Arts?' I would appreciate any information on competitions or contests past and present, personal experiences, views and opinions, references that I may not have found, in fact, anything that you think might be useful. I would welcome contributions from anywhere in the world. I hope you don't mind me asking on this forum - it's not an easy way of doing research, but a method of reaching people that would otherwise be inaccessible to me. All references will be correctly cited and the usual conventions of confidentiality adhered to. I thank you for taking the time to read this. Mo Bradshaw |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: sian, west wales Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:12 AM OK - take Eisteddfodau. (singular: Eisteddfod) It depends entirely on your point of view: some would say that they kill 'the tradition', some say they preserve it, some say they 'are' the tradition. Hmmmm. They have certainly played a major role in the past in folk song collection, as well as collection of other folk lore like stories, oral history, epitaphs, etc. and there are a lot of songs that would have been lost without the Eisteddfodau. (Big ones, like the National, but also small ones like the town and village ones.) On the performance side, however, they've rather killed off (in some people's opinions ... including my own) styles of delivery which were very 'Welsh' and replaced them with a Western 'art song' / concert platform performance. So ... "yes" or "no". Take your pick! sian |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,Russ Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:38 PM Three contests for traditional musicians in WV Clifftop http://www.wvculture.org/stringband/ WV State Folk Festival http://www.etc4u.com/folkfest/ Vandalia http://www.wvculture.org/vandalia/vanplace.html |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,Andy Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:35 PM Mo, Good luck in your search. I'm not an expert by any means but I've been around the folk scene for nearly 40 years, so maybe I can offer a little help. I know that there are still Northumbrian piping competitions (and schools) in the north east, so try contacting the Northumbrian Pipers Association. I believe Ali Anderson is one of the movers and shakers in that part of the world, maybe he can help! Also there's a big rapper sword dancing fraternity in that locality, and worldwide too! There's an annual competition called D.E.R.T (Dancing England Rapper Tournament)which attracts much interest at home and from abroad. Try contacting any Rapper organisations. They publish a magazine called 'Rattle Up'. Also there used to be a group who were dedicated to the promotion and practice of Irish music and folk culture who may assist you. I can only spell their name in a phonetic way, cos the original is in Gaelic. however, it sounds like 'Comhaltis Coltuery Eiran' ( I think!) Regards Andy |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:50 PM In my part of the world (northwestern U.S.) the main competition in the folk music area seems to be fiddle contests. They are quite common and each state usually has one, plus plenty of other small town venues - usually in the summer as a tourist attraction. Attached to the fiddle contests, but rarely as a stand alone event, there are sometimes banjo, guitar, and mandolin contests. What seems to happen in terms of encouraging or transmitting folk music is that the fiddlers develop a "contest" culture - ie, certain tunes are considered contest tunes, and certain fiddlers concentrate only on contesting, rarely playing for dances or other types of musical events. The contest tunes tend to be flashier, with many more grace notes, etc. There are also some stylistic elements that creep in - for a while "Texas style" fiddling was a big deal, and then some contests started putting in rules that excluded it. Also "trick" fiddling (double shuffling with the bow, etc.) is not allowed in some "old time" contests. So, there is definitely attention paid to the fiddle culture. Whether it transmits traditional tunes well remains to be seen. Certain tunes seem to be in vogue for a few years and then are gradually replaced with the new lyrical waltz or hot breakdown. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:58 PM In thinking about the fiddle contests, mentioned above, there is an element that does maintain the folk tradtion. At almost any sizeable fiddle contest there is lots of parking lot picking and singing at which you hear a mix of several styles - old timey, bluegrass, western swing, country & western, and celtic. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:05 PM There are some areas where competition is "traditional". Piping and clog and step dance contests come to mind. Others where it is a recent innovation. While competition will force participants to achieve a certain standard they will also force performance into a style designed to please the judges. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Mo Bradshaw Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:59 AM Thanks everyone who responded for your help. Re the last comment, this is something I am particularly interested in. Does the fact that competitions set criteria, and thus delineate performance expectations, have a detrimental effect, ultimately, on the genre, or could it actually be responsible for greater degrees of innovation, in the long term? |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: AggieD Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:56 AM Sidmouth FF has had the Morris competition for many years, & I agree with GUEST that it forces certain styles to be conformed to, rather than the way in which I personally believe that folk music/dance should evolve & has evolved over the generations, by quirks & sheer human resourcefulness. I believe that competition will be judged by the few who will stamp their own ideas on the genre. Innovation is often discriminated against in competition. Look what terrible things have happened to some poor old dogs in the light of the dog breeding world! I'm afraid that I don't believe that music & dance, & certainly not Folk should be competitive, but I know an awful lot of people who do participate & enjoy competition. Good luck with the dissertation Angela |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,padgett Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:14 AM Hy Check out Saltburn FF competition thread (3rd yr Fred Jordan for unaccompanied trad singers) Myself and John Booker ran Redcar Shanty Competition for 14 yrs for John Taylor at the Redcat FF ~ now Saltburn Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor collected by Percy Grainger, was know as a competition entrant (1905/8) No not at Saltburn !! Early days of entertaining in country areas was treated with some respect. Winners of competitions have been stimulated to continue and improve their repertoire Past winner at Redcar include: Graham Knights, Theresa Tooley, Frank Lewis, Malcolm Speake all of whom I have had recent contact on the folk schene Competitions in my mind put just a little pressure on entrants and hopefully help them to raise their standards presence and understanding of the material which they are singing (I live in Barnsley by the way) and there is little in the way of a history of singing I am availble for contact and my details are readily available |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM One of the things that first attracted me to Morris dancing was the fact that I didn't have to try to win, just to do it as well as I possibly could. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Mo Bradshaw Date: 06 Jun 05 - 06:45 AM Thanks for all the comments and good wishes. This was already a big topic and is expanding all the time. It seems to me that there is somrthing here about performance contexts and the relationship with competitions. My experience of Irish dancing is that the competition is the context ie, very little happens outside of the competition scene for most dancers, whereas with Irish music, hundreds of musicians compete, but there is also a vibrant session scene, both at a fleadh itself, but also more generally. The same with rapper dancing. Although DERT (Dancing England Rapper Tournament) may be a focus, there are plenty of other opportunities for performing rapper in other contexts. Does this fit with other experiences, such as those mentioned in the thread, i.e. Eisteddfodau, or Northumberland piping? |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: sian, west wales Date: 06 Jun 05 - 08:06 AM I'm not sure that I like the idea of 'greater degrees of innovation' (01-06 post) in that it suggest that 'growth', particularly accelerated growth, is a desirable thing. It is certainly the premise upon which our economies are based ('economic growth of GDP') but just as this premis is being proven detrimental to economic sustainability, so I believe that an artificially accelerated development of a traditional medium is detrimental to its long term prospects and general integrity. Maybe competitions are the hydroponics/hothouses of traditional arts? And I know what choice I'd make between hot-house or vine-ripened tomatoes... Re your last post, that's mega-complicated in Wales and is very much tied in with history, perception of 'self' (both as individuals and as a nation) and ... well, lots of stuff including language, religion, etc. No sound-bite answers, I'm afraid. sian |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: manitas_at_work Date: 06 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM THe journal of rapper dancing is called The Nut (from the display, not the people who dance it). Their website is at http://www.geocities.com/~johnasher/the-nut/. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: manitas_at_work Date: 06 Jun 05 - 08:23 AM I forgot to add that 'Rattle Up' is the journal of sword dancing in general but with a bias to long-sword. There are currently no long-sword competitions as far as I am aware. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Mo Bradshaw Date: 06 Jun 05 - 08:45 AM Interesting points, Sian, It could be argued, also, that by setting criteria for judging the intergrity of the tradition is upheld. Does innovation have to artificially accelerate? Surely, for any tradition to continue there is a degree of innovation and adaptation to suit new contexts. I agree that innovation for its own sake, or worse still, for economic reasons, is possibly detrimental to the health of the tradition, but commercialisation of traditions does also make them accessible to more people, for whom they might be relevant even if they had not discovered them by traditional means....thinking aloud here! |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,Blowzabella at work Date: 06 Jun 05 - 09:08 AM Hi Mo This probably isn't what you were after but I thought it was worth chucking into the pot that, in the past, champion clog dancers (probably particularly in Lancashire?) found their 'champion' status a way onto the music hall circuit and this, for some, resulted in a huge change in their lifestyle. I'm afraid I can't recall specific details at the moment, but I think Dan Leno was a champion clogger - perhaps Little Tich too? I'm sure others here will have more info, if you want more. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: s&r Date: 06 Jun 05 - 09:58 AM At Fylde Festival the competitions that have worked well are: Lancashire and Cheshire Glog Dancing - this with the help of Sam Sherry resurrected the style - it is now thriving (I believe that it is all off the toe) The worst Singer in the world competition - says it all Young performers competition - past winners include Richard Woods Tim van Eycken Kerensa, Kate Rusby etc. Works for us Stu |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: sian, west wales Date: 06 Jun 05 - 10:22 AM Mo, I have no problems with 'innovation'. I work for trac (www.trac-cymru.org) and I find that it helps, when making our case with funding agencies, to point out that we are not about 'historic re-enactment' but about a living tradition ... which suggests growth within a tradition, and 'innovation' is, for the most part, good for growth. My issues are with 'greater'; 'greater' than would normally exist in a community without Competitions? I capitalize the C to make a distinction from competition ... which is a natural part of life. In fact, 'ymryson canu' (singing competition) is a particular type of song category in Wales and part of the 'penillion' tradition, but not a stage Competition. I would also be cautious about suggesting that setting criteria maintains the integrity of the Tradition; this depends on who sets the criteria. My personal view is that traditional *singing* in Wales has deteriorated into a second-class Western European classical style thanks to Competitions where standards are set by those outside the tradition, even though Competitions may have played a major role in preserving and exhibiting traditional *song*. I understand that the Irish Trad. Music establishment has been much-criticized for homogenization of fiddle music for the sake of easy adjudication, but I am open to correction on this one. It just occurred to me (also thinking aloud) that I would not like to condemn economy-led innovation in song. The bardic tradition in Wales has always adapted for the 'market' so it has always been a big, and acceptable influence. This is a real can of worms. My mind is wandering to other 'considerations' suggested by your original title. Competitions were a major element of social reform in the past; I'm thinking of cookery, quilting, sewing, ploughing, etc. which are all 'folk related' and which have been used to educate rural workers and encourage excellence. I don't suppose this is what you're studying, but it is definitely 'folk-related' and probably key to the development of such major forces in rural communities as Women's Institute, Young Farmers, etc. sian |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Dickmac Date: 15 Jun 05 - 03:49 PM This appears to be developing as a rather serious thread. Mo are you interested in the not so serious events? In Ayrshire there are at least three competitions run by local clubs as part of their festivals.The competitions are all fun events. Girvan Folk Club - competition for "groups" where the entrants have included Man with Dog, and that's not the name of the band. Kilmarnock Folk Club - singing one song to the tune of another. Try it it's not so easy at it appears. (I won it one year singing Roddy McCorley to the tune of The Sash) Irvine Folk Club - holds the world championships in Chuckie Chuckin' and Whammy Diddlin' Your research can't be complete without this knowledge. Good luck |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Phil Cooper Date: 15 Jun 05 - 03:56 PM I think competitions don't necessarily produce good performers. When I was on a concert committee I recall turning down several first place winners from the Walnut Valley competition. They knew their way around the instruments, played traditional style tunes, and were technically good. We didn't get the impression that they would be captivating to our audience for a whole two sets. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Phil Cooper Date: 18 Jun 05 - 08:50 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST Date: 18 Jun 05 - 10:04 AM If it's 'folk related activities' rather than just folk music how about things like the Highland games? Worth considering? |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 Jun 05 - 07:21 PM There is very little that can be unambiguously identifed as "folk" music in my local (Central US) area, but since the question also relates to contests our annual Walnut Valley Association site may have some useful information. The Home Page won't be too interesting, but the link in the sidebar there to Contests Archive may get some useful reference info. A Summary History indicates: "The Walnut Valley Association was formed in 1972,with its sole purpose to produce the Walnut Valley National Guitar Flat-Picking Championships Festival...." The origins aren't really all that precisely known, and you run into people who claim they've been attending since 1968 or so – but that's the "official" history. The "official history line" continues: "The contests are a major part of the festival. Along with the National Flat Pick Championships and the National Finger Pick Championships, the Walnut Valley Festival hosts the International Autoharp, National Mountain Dulcimer, National Hammered Dulcimer, National Bluegrass Banjo, Walnut Valley Old Time Fiddle, and Walnut Valley Mandolin Championships. Over the course of years, the contests at Winfield have attracted more than 3,000 contestants from all 50 states as well as many foreign countries including Australia, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, England, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Caledonia, Switzerland, and Wales. Well-known Winfield winners include Mark O'Connor of Nashville, Tennessee, who has won or placed in more Walnut Valley Festival contests than any other contestant. Mark won the National Guitar Flat-Picking Championship in 1975 and 1977, and also won the Walnut Valley Fiddle Championship in 1974 and 1977. Alison Krauss of Nashville, won the Walnut Valley Fiddle Championship in 1984 and Steve Kaufman of Alcoa, Tennessee, is the only three-time winner of the National Guitar Flat-Picking Contest, having won in the years 1978, 1984, and 1986 respectively. (Tennessee has consistently produced the most winners over the years.) Other Winfield winners include Mandolin virtuoso Chris Thile, the Mandolin Champion in 1993 and Dixie Chick fiddler Martie Erwin Seidel in 1987 and 89. " The fiddle contest is the only one that's listed as "Old Time Fiddle," and I can't say how closely the "old-time" part of it is observed. In the few contest bits I've watched, mostly guitar and mando, most of the selections were "traditional," but quite frankly at my most recent 15 or so years attendance there I've never made it out of the campground to listen to the "organized" stuff. You'll have to make your own associations to "folk," but the competitors lists may give you an idea of who has been competing in this obscure corner of the Midwest, so that you can select the ones for whom you can make the folk connection. There's also the possibility you may be able to verify a competitive connection for someone you already know as a folkie. At the Contests Archive page, you'll find links to the lists of winners, usually first three places, for: National Guitar Flat Pick Finger Style Guitar International Autoharp National Mountain Dulcimer Walnut Valley Mandolin Walnut Valley Fiddle National Hammer Dulcimer National Bluegrass Banjo At the bottom of the Contests page there are also links to each of the years from 1972 through 2004, where winners for each year are composited. Probably of even lesser interest to your research, the sidebar at the home page links to Past Performers. So far as I can guess, this is just another list of "names of players" (393 of them), but one never knows what may be useful for a dissertation. It may be worth noting that a group from the Mandolin Café usually is present at the WVA festival. They're located "*back east" where all them professional-student-hippy-radicals come down from, so they likely have more "folk connection." I believe a few of them come in here, but a separate query at their site, if you can find a place to post it, might get some input – if you're interested in US folkish competition. * "back east" is about 150 miles in this case, but they're in a major college town and close to both the state capitol and the "big city" Kansas City KS/MO complex where there seems to be more activity. The "gawkers gallery" may also be interested in the WVA scheduled performers for 2005. For the "flavor" of the WVA Festival, the "unofficial site" at Picker's Paradise is more revealing than the official place. John |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Arkie Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM While I cannot speak for contests in general, I have been involved in producing instrumental and dance contests for a number of years. I can only testify to my own experience. While I, personally, do not think of music as a competitive sport the contests do draw an audience, they do help set a standard for performance, and they help musicians get the kind of recognition that enables them to be hired for workshops and performances. I agree with Phil that winning a contest does not necessarily mean a musician is capable of entertaining a crowd of discerning people. I have taken note of contest winners, but before hiring them for workshops I inquired a bit to learn more about their abilities. Having contest titles in the resume does help to attract some folk to workshops. In preparing for a contest a serious contender does try to perfect the presentation of a few tunes. One would like to think that the effort that went in to preparing the contest tunes would carry over in to preparing other tunes as well and enhance overall musicianship. Musicianship and entertainment value are not necessarily the same thing. What I found in fiddle competition was that contests tended to reward those who played a relatively small repertoire of tunes, particularly hoedowns. Actually there was some strong prejudice against certain tunes. I can't remember ever seeing a fiddler win a contest who played Ragtime Annie or Soldier's Joy. There was a little more freedom with waltzes and tunes of choice. I have found a much greater variety of tunes in dulcimer and autoharp competition. While fiddle competition, in my experience, has not seemed to encourage the use of a large variety of tunes or styles, the fiddle conventions have provided a wealth of style and music. I, personally, find the conventions more interesting and more entertaining. They also have drawn as large a crowd as the contests. The contests tend to draw the better musicians and in the past few years the conventions in this area have not attracted as many fiddlers as they did in the past. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:06 PM Arkie - In my area, most of the fiddlers seem to want to play blue My big event of the year is the WVA festival, but since I usually just pick in the campground my exposure to contestants is somewhat limited. It is easy to pick them out when they drop in to play out in the campground though, since the virtuosity needed for competition shows even when they're just sitting in with informal players. There are a few who want to drop in and play a solo or two (and expect everybody to listen just to them) but quite a few past winners (and non-winners) occasionally just "sit in and join in." It's often quite a learning experience for the rest of us. You might be interested in the WVA Contest Rules. If you scroll down to the Fiddle Rules, you'll find the specification that: "Each contestant will play a hoedown, a waltz, and a tune of his/her choice in that order. A hoedown and a waltz - in that order - will be played in the final round should the contestant be selected as a finalist." And also: "No trick or fancy fiddling will be allowed. Contestants will be disqualified for playing Mockingbird, Black Mountain Rag, or Orange Blossom Special." There have been a few other popular "show-off" pieces named in previous rules. Rules for other instruments allow "old time or bluegrass" tunes. One thing not mentioned in the rules is that the contest is a "blind judging," with the stage not visible to the judges. They are not supposed to know who is playing, and just mark scores for the "player number." I'm not sure how effective this is, as it's been observed that "any player less than 13 years old has to be incredibly bad to lose, regardless of the competition," but maybe that was from a limited sample of contests. John |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: YorkshireYankee Date: 19 Jun 05 - 07:33 PM One more "worm" for you -- even though your can of worms is already more than big enough... but what about "poetry slams", where contestants extemporise in rhyme? (I actually know almost nothing about this subject, but it was brought to my mind by Sian's mention of poetry competitions.) I would guess it depends on whether or not you consider this a "folk-related" activity... Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: Jess A Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:01 AM Hi Mo, Interesting subject! I've got mixed feelings on this. I went to DERT (mentioned above) a couple of years ago as a musician and not only was it great fun for all the teams I saw, it did seem to be spurring teams on to raise standards. My suspiscion with DERT is that while it may lead to a uniformity of style among some teams, innovation and flair and audience 'wow' factor were also valued by the judges and that seemed to allow for (encourage?) individuality which is IMHO a very good thing. Nobody would really want all teams to look the same! I don't dance rapper myself but I do dance Cotswold morris and it has occured to me on several occasions that if cotswold had a simlar competition to DERT it might be no bad thing, for the teams that were interested. I know about the jigs competition at Sidmouth but I'm not aware of a whole team competition anywhere. It'd never make any difference (nor should it!) to the teams who just want to go out and have fun, but for those who want to strive to high technical standards it'd be a new way for them to get together, improve collectively by learning from each other, and improve as individual teams by appealing to the competitive streak that a lot of people have. But... there're plenty of circumstances under which I don't like folk performance competitions. I'm very sceptical about the BBC Young Folk Awards. see http://froots.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30 for a rambling discussion on last years YFA finals which seems to demonstrate the arbitrary nature of such things. Some strongly opinioned people are always going to think that one person should have won over another, and I start to get concerned that it's all a bit destructive. When you consider that being a performer is a fairly competitive business anyway in terms of trying to get gigs, there's a bit of me that thinks it's unfair if 'YFA finalist John Smith' gets gigs on the strength of having entered the competition when equally talented Joe Bloggs who chose not enter finds it difficult to get similar gigs, simply because audiences & organisers seem disproportionately impressed by the hype that surrounds that kind of competition. Jess A |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST,Russ Date: 20 Jun 05 - 12:56 PM I've tried to avoid participating in this thread. Honest. But I am too weak. With all due respect, I think you are asking the wrong question. Better questions might be ones along the lines of: Do competitions affect traditional Folk Arts? How exactly do competitions affect them? Your question is not a question about empirically observable changes. It is a question that assumes changes and then places a value judgment on them. If I were to see a dissertation based on the question as it currently exists I would expect to learn a lot about YOUR evaluation of a phenomenon. I probably wouldn't read it. I would probably read a dissertation based on the other questions. I'd then feel free to make my own judgment of the phenomenon. |
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Subject: RE: Competitions in Folk related activities From: GUEST Date: 20 Jun 05 - 01:23 PM Sorry I'm at work so I've only had a few minutes to skim through this so I'll apologise in advance if this is repeated from above. I used to be heavily into handbell ringing which although not traditional in the music sense was, if you like, a traditional instrument. In the 'good old days' of the 1860's to 1930's regular competitions were held in Belle Vue, Manchester. Since then the playing of handbells died out in many parts of the country and it's only in the last 25-30 years that handbell ringing has started a recovery prompted by the Handbell Ringers of Great Britain (HRGB). The HRGB do not have competitions. I can safely say that only a handful of the teams playing today could comare technically and musically with the teams from 100 years ago. So competition certainly provided many handbell teams to attain levels of musicianship to a very high degree. The lesson we can take from this is that competition is 'Darwinian' and only the 'fitest' survive - the best players. However, this 'Darwinian' process has the the effect of focusing on one or maybe two solutions to winning competitions (like lions and pumas compared with sabre-toothed tigers) by imposing rules. In traditional music there are very few rules that are followed and by imposing rules in a competition (even if it is just the judges personal likes and dislikes) distorts the tradition. So to sum up: competition strives for exellence by imposing rules but these very rules change the tradition. T |
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