US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?

Subject: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:02 PM

I live in UK.

Just read thread about US Fest Land getting sold- so no more festival there.

What's US law in respect of having a folk fest on farmer's fields (with permission) or on your own land?

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:03 PM

ps this should be bs

---

since it has to do with festivals, it doesn't belong in the non-music (BS) section - I added the word "festivals" to the thread title for clarification.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:04 PM

from me

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:16 PM

Many local, rural district, county and state regulations govern private and public land use.
My pigs would object to a fest on neighboring property. All that noise and garbage!

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:38 PM

Hello "Mr. Happy!" I live in the Northwest corner of America. I'll try to add some insight to your question:

I suspect that the forces that rule these events in your contry are similiar to what happens here. Case in point: Over the last two weeks there's been a big "to do" in a little mountain town here named Sultan. It seems that a very respectable nudist camp just out of Sulton decided to put on a three day "rock fest" over this upcomming holiday weekend.

Well the city and county "Fathers" just could'nt abide that ... after all ... there might be nudity there!

So a big flap happened, all well covered (nice choice of words .... eh?) in the local press.

The story sifted down ... a festival ... no festival ... no permits ... no permits needed ... on and on and on.

As you might guess, just today the festival was cancelled. I forget the latest reason given, as it changed hourly.

I think my point is this ... whatever "powers that be" will be as powerfull as necessary to defeat anything they feel is not in their best interest.

I don't know if I've shed (sorry about that word) any light on your questions. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:50 PM

There is great deal of difference between the USA "New England" thought mentality and the "Western" big-sky-view.

The vast majority of the USA population was spawned and stayed on the East Coast...they have walls and enjoy mending them, as Mr. Frost implied. (Think England/new)

Woodstock, was a momentary aboration that caught most East-Coasters by surprise. It was never repeated.

Western mentality has brought us the repeated - year after year experience of "Burning Man."

In the western USA you are not bound by generations of Hawthorn-ish heirs and all their tripping guilt, town commissioners, and centuries of regulations.

The USA is a big, Big, BIG, place (and filled with a lot, Lot, LOT, more people than Australia.) West of the Missippi, if you can imagine it, you can Do It...."Lightning Ranch," "Georgia O'Keefe," "Bill Gates."

Most folk in the Western USA, live and die a long, Long, LONG ways from where they were born.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Return on capital investment is a major motivating (POSITIVE) factor in the USA. We do not hold to restrictions, that an event held for 30 years has become a "tradition" and should be protected. Given the most recent S. Court ruling - Municiple TAX BASE should over-power the land-holder's rights. Slowly, the USA is becoming more like the UK, decade by decade.

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 10:57 PM

I think that your point is very well taken. I ferget just how "vast" we are. And you are so right: what's goes down well in my neck of the woods certainly would NOT fly in Missouri, or Maine ... I'm thinkin! Bob

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 11:16 PM

As a general rule, anyone planning on renting a cow pasture from some farmer, building a stage, bringing in a few portable toilets, and throwing a festival is in for a rude awakening. Every festival I've been to for the last twenty years has been held in either a state park or an established private campground/music park.   

Now, I'm not saying it can't be done, but it'll have a lot better chance of happening if the landowner is the sheriff's brother-in-law and the promoter has a cousin on the county board of commissioners.

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 11:52 PM

It depends entirely where you are--inside the limits of incorporated cities, you are basically a tasty snack for all the bureaucrats to eat alive with regulations, the farther away to get, the more anything goes--Gargoyle is pretty much right about his East to West thing, except for California and Oregon, which, depending on where you are, can be extremely difficult.

The thing is, if you want to put a festival on, the best thing to do is to shop around for a town or small city that doesn't have much going on, and would like to have something going on--there are places that would welcome it, and do a lot to help make it work--

A farmer's pasture is a stupid place to have a festival, because it has no facilities of any kind--no parking, no water, no toilets, no lights, no electricity, no stage, no picnic tables--well, you can sort of figure out why stuff tends to happen in parks, on private campgrounds, or in actual music/performing arts facilities.

Summer is here, and there are festivals enough to choke a horse--most have slapped together entertainement, consisting of six bad local bands and a top 40 Group from the sixties with only one of the original members, but there are some good things too, and there are folks around who'd be open to setting up a good thing, if you know where to look for them, and know how to set up such a thing--

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: johnross
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:15 AM

Every place in the U.S. has its own local government, with their own set of laws and regulations. Some are going to be more or less agreeable than others about allowing a festival in their area. In some places, there are zoning rules about gatherings larger than some minimum number, and requirements for things like an adequate number of toilets. Others might demand that you pay an "impact fee" or hire a bunch of off-duty sheriff's duputies for on-site "security."

And if there have been other events in the same area, the local officials may actually know more about planning and logistics than you do -- if that's true, you should take advantage.

That said, if you're planning an event that will attract more than, oh, a hundred people, it's in your interest to talk to the local government early and often, and work with them on advance planning as much as possible. Just because the event is on your own farm or some other private land, you're still going to have an impact on your neighbors -- you want to make sure that the locals know what to expect regarding traffic, health and public safety at an absolute minimum. If you're planning amplified music, you want to make sure about the noise impact on the neighbors. Can the power grid handle the added load from your sound and lighting? Does the neighbor have animals in a pasture across the fence from your land? And if the entire audience isn't camping on the grounds, where will they sleep -- in a local park, or will they park campers on the side of the road, or fill up all three local motels?

And what kind of audience do you expect? The crowd for a fiddle festival is entirely different from the one that comes to hear punk rock. If you can show that your event will have a positive economic impact -- people spending money in restaurants and motels, opportunities for local civic groups to set up food booths on site or offer supper in the church basement, secondary events like a big local rummage sale and so forth, you might get the local folks on your side. Especially if it's a low-key event that draws families and polite folkies rather than rude heavy metal fans (yeah, those are stereotypes, but they're what your opposition will be playing with).

If something goes seriously wrong, you want the local cops and other emergency responders to know who you are and that they can work with you. The last thing you, as organizer, want is an adversarial relationship with the locals.

So the simple answer is that there is no simple answer. It depends on the local government. But regardless of the regulations, you need to do some serious coordination with local authorities.

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festival
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:18 AM

Mr. John Ross

because the event is on your own farm or some other private land, you're still going to have an impact on your neighbors.

I do not believe you have ANY concept of how large the land-areas of private ownership in the Western States is. Show me an amplifier that can throw for 3,4,5 miles.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

We are talking buffalo-grass dry-lands, and in the case of "Burning Man" desert, desert, and more desert for desert. Were' talkin' "bad-lands." 15 acres per cow

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festival
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:29 AM

Re:
you want the local cops -

At a recent "ecological event" - the local cops went exploring. They were hired for four hours $400 each...to stand out front...but "they smelled something peculiar."

The event attracted 1000 at $100 a pop, and extra donations tossed in by successful entraprenuers. The LAST thing we needed was a "bust." We also hired, at $120 each several local military. The local cops were keystone-crap "looking for shit." The military were polite, honorable, and added an ambience to the occasion.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:24 AM

My sympathies on your cop problems--you get what you pay for, and small towns don't pay much for their cops--

As to your thought about the vast private land expanses in the West--well, they aren't as big as they used to be--you can be in the most desolate, remote, inhospitable, and unappealing spot imaginable, and suddenly find yourself surrounded by ATVs, bicyclists, motorcycles, RVs, and everyone on a cell phone--I can assure you, it don't take much of that kind of noise to disrupt the vast silence--

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: GUEST,JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 02:42 AM

One nearby farmer got the idea of having a festival a couple of years ago - on his own farm. After nearly a year of planning and negotiating with his local authorities, he decided it wasn't worth it.

While his farm was not in a really "remote" location, one of his neighbors recently donated several thousand acres as a "habitat preservation preserve," and it was a small fraction of the family farm, so farms in the area are obviously big enough to isolate the noise.

One of the reasons that some of the remote areas are remote is that they don't support much of any high density use. If you're not familiar with remote ecologies, it's very difficult to understand how fragile the landscape may be. Just driving one truck across some of it can leave tracks that will be visible for 50 years or more, and if the tracks are more than "surface marks" you can change erosion patterns in ways that can significantly harm the existing uses of adjacent land a few miles away.

The cited farmer ran into serious problems with the environmental impact of having a large group of people there, and also with the liability issues. When a farmer lets someone use his land, he's generally liable for their stupidity. Just buying an insurance policy doesn't handle it. You have to create a "reasonable expectation of safety" if you let people in, and especially if you charge admission. Safety means sanitation, food, water, power, and means to provide or get people to medical facilities if there's an accident.

The most suitable locations for venues in the US usually are where someone has deliberately created a place to put on shows. County fairgrounds are a good bet in many areas, if you go to the counties close to but outside major metro areas. (Fairgrounds in the metro counties may be pretty "urbanized.")

In my area at least, most of the fairgrounds have at least some setup for camping, since fair exhibitors often "live at the fair" when it's on. They're also usually located near good roads that can handle reasonable traffic.

In an off time of year, for a smaller group, you might find an RV park that would be interested - in some parts of the country. This is less likely if it's a "wide open to the public" kind of event.

In the best of circumstances, you'll need to start planning more than a year in advance. You'll likely have to do a sales job to get the venue to accept that it's a good idea for them, and then you'll have to sell the venue to those you expect to come.

We do have friends who've had a number of "mini-festivals" on their own land without problems; but those are "private parties" and attendance is by invitation only. A recent one had about 15 or so performers, and close to 100 "friends." For a non-profit group of less than 100 or so, you might be able to reserve a "shelter" at a state or even at a Federal recreation area for a few days, but you're unlikely to get a reservation for anything you charge admission for.

John

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: johnross
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 01:02 PM

Gargoyle, I was not talking about the impact of amplified sound -- it's true that a properly designed system can limit the sound level and direction to the audience area.

But the other impacts of hundreds or thousands of vehicles, demands for sanitation and other local resources are inevitable. When an audience member trips over a tent rope and breaks his leg, or has a grand mal epileptic seizure, will the local hospital be able to handle it?

As for cops looking for a bust, if you get that kind of vibe from the local authorities during your initial disussions with them, that's a good indication that you need to look for a different site.

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

Then of course, when you set something up out in the great wide open, how many people are going to make the trek? Location determines what your attendence will be--proximity is a big factor for all but the most diehard music fans, and accessibility--

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festival
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 02:23 PM

Just this last weekend I attended a musical get-together on private property in Indiana, near a small town.

This has been held on private property yearly for five years now. The total property is probably 12 acres, I'd say. The stage area is backed up to the owners' house, and there's about six acres for campers and tents--a good deal of which was occupied. There were, as I recall, five or six porta-potties. There was a cold-water shower available, and there was a 4-foot deep plastic abovegound "swimming pool", of which more later. This is located in the country, about 7 miles from the local town. Not only is no admission charged, but the hosts will not accept contributions.

The first year, 2001, there were as I remember about 40 or 50 attendees. This year it was 160 or so. About half were musicians, the other half families and friends, and some neighbors or relatives of the hosts. People came from (that I remember) Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, Indiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Illinois--and England! There were probably other states represented.

I didn't get any hint of the hosts having made local regulatory arrangements at all, and there was no hint of police or sheriff attention at any time in the four days.

On Sunday one fellow dived into the shallow, above-ground swimming pool. Someone said, "Do it again, so I can get a picture!" He did, and hit his head. He wasn't actually injured, I don't think, but since he had a neurological condition he thought he ought to go to the local hospital to be checked out. An ambulance took him, and another musician returned him to the farm later. No injury (other than a bump), as far as I could tell. But the potential scares me.

On Monday, the few of us who were still there were talking to the host couple. The daughter of the hosts suggested that maybe they should have insurance! The host-wife said they had thought about it, but the cost was $400 per day, and so they hadn't bought it. Then she decided maybe they ought to get insurance coverage for next year.

I am covered with admiration for the generous spirit of the hosts, who are wonderful people, but "going naked" like that seems plumb-foolishness.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 03:14 PM

Gargoyle is too free with his western permits.
Here are the general regulations for Texas (local restrictions on top of these):

Subject: RE: US Law Query: Planning Permission for Festivals?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 03:53 PM

? Posting clipped.
Texas: see Texas regs
In New Mexico, carnivals, festivals and circuses fall under the same blanket regulations on State lands; use of federal lands not otherwise controlled are subject to permits from the Bureau of Land Management. Counties and towns have a welter of permit regulations.
Environmental, water and land use regulations are everywhere and necessary.

The 'burning man festival' in Nevada is operating at this time under a two-year permit granted by the federal BLM (Bureau of Land Management). The 'festival' is 'controlled' by its organizers, but this atrocity, held in a unique desert landscape, and which attracts about 30,000 ticket-buying morons, is becoming subject to more regulation as time goes on and complaints multiply. Research is being done on the effects of human use of the playa setting.