Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?

Subject: Origins: house of the rising sun
From: GUEST,paullynch
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 12:52 PM

does anyone know if jim morrison or the doors ever recorded this song - or did a live version

Subject: RE: Origins: house of the rising sun
From: Malc R
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM

Try starting your search on the knowledge search thingy at the top left of the home page, there are already lots of posts on this subject, heres a link to one of them thread.cfm?threadid=8592

Happy hunting

Mal :o)

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 02:00 PM

I suppose most of us learned the song from the Eric Burdon and the Animals recording, but Amazon.com shows a total of 809 CD recordings of the song - but Pete Seeger (good one), and of course Leadbelly, Nina Simone, Bob Dylan, Lonnie Donegan, The Spencer Davis Group, The Brothers Four, Woody Guthrie (!), The Supremes, Joan Baez, and (get this) - the Ventures, and the Fantastic Strings, and the Romantic Strings. There's also one by the Almanac Singers, and Dolly Parton recorded it. I didn't check the entire list, but that's a good start.

I would have thought that the Leadbelly recording was one of the earliest, but the Traditional Ballad Index shows several recordings from the early 1930's.

Did William Shatner record this one, Little Hawk?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 06:47 PM

Didn't Woody record it with Leadbelly?
I think I have it on a cassette of him, Leadbelly and Pete Seeger.
.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:07 PM

But which recordings are from the (original) female perspective, rather than the male perspective?

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

Didn't Woody record it with Leadbelly?
I think I have it on a cassette of him, Leadbelly and Pete Seeger.

Woody recorded it in 1941 as a member of The Almanac Singers with Pete Seeger, Millard Lampell, Lee Hays and Pete Hawes.

Eric Burdon & the Animals based their version on Bob Dylan's. Dylan based his on Dave Van Ronk's.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: cockney
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:04 PM

The Doors recorded this as their first single. Jak Holtzman ofElektra records rejected it as any royalty would go to Alan Price (even though he didn't write it he managed to secure copywright). It later turned up on a French compilation called "Les Hippies D'America te musique" credited to Jimi D'ors. Jim Morrison actually plays acoustic guitar on it, it's quite moody!

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: mindblaster
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:35 PM

I have that album it's actually called "Les Hippies D'Amerique Mystique" There is a wonderful duet of Jim Morrison & Nico doing a version of "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" again featuring Jim on guitar. I'm amazed that these two tracks have not turned up on any compilation.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: melodeon king
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:42 PM

Yes Jim was quite an accomplished guitarist. I read in Melody Maker years ago that Bobby Kreiger was originally supposed to be the bass player and Jim lead on spanish guitar. This is the line up on the two tracks that appear on Les Hippies album. Apparantly Kreiger has always blocked any re-issuing as he is jealous of Jim's unique style and embarrased by his 2 or 3 note bass lines.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,Doors fan
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:43 PM

I had heard of an album called French Hippies or something but always thought it was just a rumour. Is it worth a lot of money?

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:55 PM

[a href="http://www.lyricsdomain.com/4/doors/house_of_the_rising_sun.html"]Try here.[/a]

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 01:19 AM

THE POSTING FROM "PEACE" IS SPAM DO NOT CLICK THE LINK

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,raincheck
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 01:33 AM

There is a version on the "Other Songs" album. This is not however the rare "French Hippy" version with jim's excellent acoustic guitar.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 01:34 AM

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/4/doors/house_of_the_rising_sun.html

That is the site to which the link goes.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 01:42 AM

So what?

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 02:18 AM

"Peace" got his lyrics from http://www.lyricsdomain.com/4/doors/house_of_the_rising_sun.html
The site isn't exactly Spam, but it does have some nasty popups. I changed the link into a straight URL.
Here are the lyrics from that site.

House Of The Rising Sun Lyrics
by Doors

There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Risin' Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy.
In God, I know I'm one.

My mother was a tailor.
She sewed my new blue jeans.
My father was a gamblin' man
Down in New Orleans.

Now, the only thing a gambler needs
Is a suitcase and a trump
And the only time that he's satisfied
Is when he's all a-drunk.

Oh, Mother, tell your children
Not to do what I have done.
Spend your lives in sin and misery
In the house of the risin' sun.

Well, I've got one foot on the platform.
The other foot on the train.
I'm goin' back to New Orleans
To wear that ball and chain.

Well, there is a house in New Orleans
They call the Risin' Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy.
In God, I know I'm one.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 02:41 AM

Dear, most benevolent Foolestroupe:

You are obviously privey to information most of us lack:
Recordingsfrom the (original) female perspective?????

In the spirit of coloborative-learning....(obviously, you know of the "mystery" recordings

Don't play games - POST your information! (most of us want to learn)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Drop a little purplehaze PutUp or ShutUp!!!!

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 02:50 AM

It appears to be a "standard" (as it should be) in the DT.

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2727

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Many brown objects appear on the folk-song trail...some are not worth kicking up again.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,Fullerton
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 02:58 AM

Foolestoupe is right.

I have often wondered why it is hardly sung by female singers when it is so obviously a song that is from a female perspective.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:44 AM

In the original, Garg, the singer is a prostitute - who works in a brothel called 'The House of The Rising Sun' - it has been butchered by many performers to make it into a male singer song. It is more meaningful as a female song - most of the words are there in the version above - easily reconstructed. But you have to search hard to find the words in that format - enjoy the search!

Robin

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:47 AM

Joe Offer - I don't think that William Shatner has done House of the Rising Sun in a studio recording yet, but he has done it informally at weiner roasts and stuff like that. I have been privileged to attend several such occasions. I once did so disguised as a California bar girl. A thin one. It was great. I met a Mexican lesbian dancer named Carlita and we had a beautiful weekend together in Santa Cruz. This was after the Shatman had left to go to a Star Trek Convention in Lithuania. I would have gone to that too, but I have a weakness for Mexican women.

The first time I ever heard the song was Joan Baez's early recording of it, which was very good. I later heard it done by everybody under the sun, including every amateur folkie who could strum 3 or 4 chords. Kind of a shame when songs like that get overplayed, cos then no one wants to hear them after awhile.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Having read "No one Here Gets Out Alive" and several other informative tomes on the group I am surprised to learn 1) That Jim played the guitar -as no mention of him ever doing so is made and no photographs ever show him playing (simulating copulation does not count!). 2) They recorded a version of "House of The Rising Sun" I have heard cover versions of "Gloria", "Money" and "Mystery Train" and "Heartbreak Hotel" but never that song -Strange Days indeed!

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: woodsie
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

I have defimitely hear an acoustic spanishy version - always thaught it was the doors

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,Open minded priest
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:11 AM

I actually used to teach Jim spanish guitar in the early sixties. He was an excellent pupil. I was always suprised that he allowed a much inferior player (Kreiger) to take the lead in the band.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:58 AM

Mediocre group.

Subject: RE: House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:40 AM

Wouldn't a "Door's Recording" be rather squeaky?

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:20 AM

Odetta sang a masterful version of HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN, with a jazzy piano accompaniment. Joan Baez, The Be Good Tanyas, Tracy Chapman, Marianne Faithful, Donna Fargo, Miriam Makeba, Dolly Parton, Nina Simone, and The Supremes have all recorded it, as well as several lesser-known females. I'd say the female perspective is pretty well covered, although Foolstroupe may be right, that we don't have transcriptions of them.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:29 AM

It does seem as if Dave Van Ronk is the creator of the version of "The House of the Rising Sun" that we all know. In his book " The mayor of MacDougal Street", Dave clearly says that he learnt the song from a recording by Hally Wood who in turn had learnt it from an Alan Lomax field recording by Georgia Turner; however, Dave says that he added the classic chord sequence ( which in turn would have altered the tune somewhat ) which is every much part of the song's appeal. And, of course, Dylan " pinched " it off Dave, and The Animals got their version from Dylan's first album.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors record
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:38 PM

"Trype for Fools" you certainly chose an appropriate nomilcure.

"Joan Baez" lyrics "House of the Rising Sun" yeilds 15,000 websites with these lyrics:

Lyrics - House Of The Rising Sun
Artist - Joan Baez
Album - Joan Baez

There is a house in New Orleans,
they call the rising sun.
It`s been the ruin for many a poor girl, and me, oh Lord, I`m one.
My mother was a taylor, she sewed our new blue jeans,
my father was a gambling man, down in New Orleans.
If I had listened to what my mother said,
I`d have been at home today,
but I was young and foolish, oh, God, let a rambler lead me astray.
Oh Mothers, tell your children not to do what I have done,
to spend their lives in sin and misery
in the house of the rising sun.
I`m going back to New Orleans, my race is almost run,
I`m going back to spend my life beneath the rising sun.

(The Animals)

Some of the 15000 sites you find so difficult to find:

www.lyricsdownload.com/ joan-baez-house-of-the-rising-sun-lyrics.html
www.lyricskeeper.com/joan_baez-lyrics/ 176690-house_of_the_rising_sun-lyrics.htm
http://joan-baez-lyrics.wonderlyrics.com/House-of-the-Rising-Sun.html
http://www.sing365.com

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM

Garg, just because one version on the web has more links than any other one, doesn't make it the 'definitive one', nor the 'original one'. In one of my very old music books, now misplaced, I had a 'female version' and also a version of 'Sloop John B' with more verses than the 'traditional' or 'commonly heard' version, that also explained in more detail WHY things were happening.

OK, and just how frustrated do YOU think _I_ am - I probably loaned it to some soft talking nice looking thieving bastard who didn't give it back!

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors record
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM

I BELIEVE THE GROUP IS ASKING YOU FOOLESTROUPE TO POST ANOTHER ONE OF THE FEMALE VERSIONS YOU ARE AWARE OF.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:46 PM

Already answered in post above yours Garg. Lost track of it...
It was an early 'learn folk music the easy way' type book.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors record
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 12:22 AM

So -- because there is no "hard-factual-evidence"

we have the fool extruding

...proclaiming %$*&^#$ and calling it TRAD.

work baby turd, word hard and excreat, or the rest of will know....that you are a-------

Declares the sun done.

RIP, Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 12:27 AM

RIP, Gargoyle


Wouldn't that be nice.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 01:26 AM

GUEST - declaring a Death Wish - upon someone even as useless as an entire troop of fools IS NOT NICE.

In my opinion - what the "GUEST" is asking...is that since one example has been provided...

Perhaps the trooping fool - might be goaded into providing another example from the his plethoria of phrases.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 01:29 AM

Female VERSES -

PLEASE

FOOLSTRAP - provide some???

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: mindblaster
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 03:02 AM

Male - female - who give's woodlouse's fart the song is shite! I only like The Doors version due to the amazing spanish guitar of Jim Morrison.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 03:20 AM

"There is a house in Newall Green
They call the Rising Sun"

Is any one familiar with this early English/Manchester version of this great somg?

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,CAPITAN ACAB
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:42 AM

i don't believe you

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 02:23 PM

'it has been butchered by many performers'

Foolstroupe, I agree. Any commercial version I've heard of this has been loud and coarse, involving a lot of bellowing. This from a person who's ill, perhaps dying?

Another thing they do is bellow the highest note of each line, whether it's an important word or not:
   
   "..they CAAAALL the Risin' Sun,
    and it's BEEEEEN the ruin of many of poor boy..."

However, there is no law which says that the highest note of a line has to be the loudest.

On days when I'm feeling down, I sing this around the house, softly and sadly, trying to feel the bitterness and the longing for happier days. It doesn't matter whether it's a boy (customer) or a girl (prostitute) - both would have the same feelings.

Other slob stuff in the commercial versions:

1. Old timers would never have said 'My mother was a tailor.' Tailors were men. (Still are, no matter how many disappointed yuppies name their daughers Taylor.)

2. The reference to blue jeans seems all wrong. Anachronistic, for one thing. Some lazy person probably slapped it in there to get a rhyme for New Orleans. (which is pronounced N' OR-lins when it's at home.)


So I ran the verse through my folk processor and it came out thus:

My mother was a seamstress.
She sewed the finest seams.
My father was a gamblin man
way down in New Orleans.

Some days I prefer 'He came from New Orleans.'

Since 'New Orleans' isn't pronounced the way a New Orleans native would say it, the singer should use a Southern accent which is not from there. I try to imitate the sound of Kentucky or Tennessee, but I'm by no means an expert.

========
Capitan Acab: I'm with you.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM

Leenia,

While it's true that the currently fashionable hometown pronunciation of "New Orleans" is "N'awlins," people from there do sometimes pronounce it "New orLEANS." This was even more true early in the twentieth century. Jelly Roll Morton said it that way, for example.

That said, Lomax's recording (from which revival versions mostly sprang) came from Georgia Turner, a Kentucky miner's daughter. The earliest recording was from Tennessee.   So you're right on in how you try to pronounce things, from that perspective.

Turner does say both "tailor" and "blue jeans." Blue Jeans go back to the mid 19th century, and are by no means anachronistic for the song.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 03:51 PM

Maybe the singer's mother was the female rambling tailor....

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

Nerd is correct about jeans (genes, geanes jene, etc.); as a name for the material, it goes back to the 16th c. A quote from 1802 mentions the manufacture of fine jeans.
An article in Harpers (1885) spoke of jean clad mountaineers. Colors were several. These 'jeans' are not the type that most North Americans think of when they hear the term 'blue-jeans' today; 'Levis' etc. come to mind.

Levi Strauss invented the riveted heavy blue denim kind we know as 'blue-jeans'; he called them "waist overalls," patented 1873. The name blue jeans doesn't seem to attach to them until the 20th c.

Hermann Melville (1870s) spoke of a "blue-jean career," referring to naval officers. This doesn't seen to connect with current usage for the denims.

Now where the heck does anyone get the idea that "House of the Rising Sun" is earlier than 20th century? No anachronism here. And too many myths or just-so stories connected to the song, a 1920s blues lament, probably dating from the time the district embracing what had been Storyville (officially closed 1917) became a place of more 'general' entertainment. Assumption here that NO is meant in the song; it could have been Baltimore, etc. (And Nu Or-leens is commonly heard down there).
-------------------
Tailor- My first tailor-made suit was made for me when I got out of the army in the 1940s; the tailor was a woman who would have considered 'seamstress' derogatory. A seamstress does plain sewing only. Tailor refers to both sexes.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:24 PM

Q-thanks for the notes on jeans and on tailors.

But as to this part:

"Assumption here that NO is meant in the song; it could have been Baltimore, etc. (And Nu Or-leens is commonly heard down there)."

Most early versions of the song say it's in New Orleans, so it's not an assumption as far as I can tell.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:07 AM

Sorry, Nerd. I ended up posting in a different thread on the song.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:07 PM

Blue jeans are wrong for two reasons.

1. Page through photographs up to 1970. Do you see women in blue jeans?in the 1900's, the 1920's, the 1930's? No you don't.

In fact, when I a little girl in the 1950's, women didn't wear jeans. Well, maybe teenagers that wanted to show their rebelliousness did.

No, forget Levi Strauss and all that, it's just a lazy rhyme.

2. Examine a pair of blue jeans. Note the heavy fabric, the thick seams, the fincky details. Blue jeans are not made by mothers at a home sewing machine. They are made in factories, on specialized, heavy-duty machines, each of which can only do one part of the manufacturing process.

It's a sloppy verse sung by a person out of touch with the subject, and that's not what good songs are supposed to be.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:05 AM

Leenia, a few answers


1) The song doesn't say a woman wore the jeans, it says a woman made the jeans. (Georgia Turner says "sewed those new blue jeans," not "sewed my new blue jeans.") So whether women WORE jeans is irrelevant.

2) Even if it did say that, women did indeed wear jeans prior to the 1950s, rivets and all. Jeans were extremely popular with women in factories during WWII, but had been popular with women workers on farms and in other rural outdoor working communities (such as ranching and mining communities) for many years before that. If you look in the places where you'd expect to find photos of women in jeans, eg. among photos of factory workers, ranch hands, etc., you see plenty of jeans on women.Here's a picture of two of them, in 1943. Here's a working cowgirl in 1939. Norman Rockwell's famous painting of Rosie the Riveter is another example from the 1940s. Georgia Turner, a miner's daughter, and Clarence Ashley, who grew up among farming homesteaders, would have been quite familiar with women who at least occasionally wore jeans in the 1930s.

3) The song doesn't say that the mother is making the jeans "on a home sewing machine." She could easily be in a factory, as far as we know from the song.

4) Even if it did say that, if you read Q's post, you'll see that the word "jeans" did not always mean the riveted pants we think of today. Jeans has referred to a number of different kinds of pants, some of which were made by mothers at home.

5) You seem to be arguing that only someone in the post-1970s world could imagine the scene of a woman making or wearing jeans in the early part of the century. But we know people did imagine it; the song was consistently collected with those words in the 1930s—obviously it made sense to Clarence Ashley and Georgia Turner, and didn't seem like an anachronism. The song probably isn't much older than that, so why should it seem anachronistic to us if it didn't to them?

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors record
From: mrmoe
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

I was once told that it was Dave Van Ronk who was responsible for putting this song in a minor key.....I have recordings of both Ledbelly and Jack Elliot doing it in major key....

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

In the 1930s, the riding pants type of thing, popular in the southwest in the 1920s, was disappearing- forget what they were called. I have pictures of my mother, one from the 20s shows her in the riding pants at an oil rig (no horse) and others of her in Levis from the 1930s and 1940s. I guess she didn't subscribe to Vogue magazine. She did wear skirts to town social events or shopping when we went to the big city (Denver or El Paso).
And as Nerd says, you are forgetting the lighter weight denims that are still popular.
And thanks for the picture of Rosie. I remembered the song but not the picture.

Subject: RE: Origins:House of the rising sun - Doors recording?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM

The "correct" pronunciation of New Orleans, along with several colloquial pronunciations, is now and always has been with the accent on the first syllable of the second word: New OR-leans.

I have a big fat issue with the neologism "N'Awlins." NOBODY says it that way, in two flat syllables ~ or at least no one did until folks began reading that particular failed attempt to render a phonetic spelling.

Back in the '70s, I saw a headline in the long-long-defunct Vieux Carre Courier that included the city's name spelled "No Awlins." That was the first time I saw any such rendering, and I felt that it was just about right. Droppng the "o" and substituting an apostrophe erroneously eliminated a syllable, albeit a very sutle and almost-absent syllable.

I would suggest that "Nwa-lins" is a much better way to spell the common abbreviated pronunciation. Same letters as "N'Awlins," but in a different order.

Anyway, there are quite a few different ways to say "New Orleans" in various local accents, but they all emphasize the "OR," not the "leans."

Now ~ here's the tricky part ~ in all cases where the world "Orleans" is used without being preceded by the word "New", the accent is properly placed on the second syllable: Orleans Avenue, Orleans Parish, Orleans Levee Board, etc. ~ all pronounced "Or-LEENZ."

In songs, it's a lot easier to rhyme "or-LEENS" than "OR-lunz" or "OR-lee-uns," so the pronunciation in songs is almost always "New Or-LEENZ." I'm quite sure that local muscians and songwriters were and are as guilty as any "outsiders," if not moreso, in having promulgated this "error."

It should also be noted that the original correct pronunciation is/was French, and differs from both (of all) the modern American-English alternatives. It goes something llike this: "OR-lee-AHN" (with a silent "s").