The sound of old time (timey) music

Subject: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

Being a forruner in England I've been puzzled about what is, or is not old time (or timey - some sort of distinction there) music as played today. I've done a thread search and found plenty on what is or is not old time music. However, all the definitions I read are comparisons to various other musical styles current today. Unfortunately, this doesn't really help me as to me it's a bit like saying living in Boulder is a bit like/not like living in Santa Fe: I've got no terms of reference that I understand.

So what does it sound like?

I presume it is played on acoustic stringed instruments; mainly guitar, fiddle and banjo. Are other instruments widely used? What about drums, pianos and accordions (of all varieties)?

Tempo. I imagine it would be played at a generally sedate and steady pace.

Lift or Bounce: Is it mainly a song style or for dancing or a mixture? If it's dancing does it have a lot of "bounce" in it to give the dancer lift or is it a flatter, smoother sound?

Is the reportoire mainly traditional or mainly new stuff?

Any other thoughts, personal views, reviews, comments or criticisms gratefully received!

Darren

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:25 PM

Just as an off-the-cuff reaction, the following thoughts spring to mind:

- very early country music (the sound track to "O Brother, Where Art Thou", although some have described it as 'proto-bluegrass')

- songs like "You Are My Sunshine", "Cripple Creek", "Old Joe Clark", "Keep on the Sunny Side", "Bury Me Beneath the Willow"

- Carter Family stuff

- lotta Appalachian mountain songs

- most songs that feature mandolin and frailing (clawhammer) style banjo (as opposed to bluegrass style)

Not claiming or trying to be definitive, but any of that help?

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

FYI

The term "old time" was a creation of marketers.

In the 20's American recording companies realized that they could sell lots of records if they created them for specialized markets.

They needed labels for record bins. Thus, for example, was born the term "old time."

The target marker for "old time" music was southerners, transplanted southerners, or southerner-wannabes. It was called it "old time" to suggest that it came from an earlier, simpler, better age. The good old days, in other words.

Like "world music" today, the label "old time" included a dizzying array of repertoire, styles, arrangements, and instrumentation. The only thing the recordings had in common was the record bin and the target market.

My point. "Old time" has been from the beginning been an artificial construct. Looking for an "essence" is an exercise in futility.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

Old Time(y) Music is basically pre commercial American country come Folk , predominantly acoustic and with a definate 'Nostalgis' quotient . It is what became Bluegrass and Modern Country .

Thats just MY viewpoint as an English Folkie who's been listening to ALL sorts of music for FAR too long !

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

Oldtime fiddle: powerful rhythmic shuffle style, not the smoother legato of bluegrass.
Oldtime banjo: percussive rapping/frailing or fairly unsyncopated picking, not the three-finger patterns of bluegrass.
Basically, if it sounds like Bonnie and Clyde driving away from a bank robbery, it's bluegrass. Otherwise, it's oldtime.
   In musical circles, you're only really allowed to like one or the other.(As in the 60's: Beatles or Stones, Dylan or Simon and Garfunkel).
As James Russell Lowell put it so eloquently on this subject:
Once to every man and nation
Comes the moment to decide
In the strife of truth with falsehood
For the good or evil side.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

'Old Time' might have been a marketing term and as such was an "artificial construct", but the music marketed as Old Time in the early 20th century was anything but a creation of the recording industry. When recording companies realized there was money to be made in selling the music of the American South, they actively sought out and recorded the string band music of musicians such as Fiddlin' John Carson, Eck Robertson, Charlie Poole and loads of others. These individuals had been playing for years in fiddling contests, vaudeville & minstrel shows, living rooms and back porches, etc. The sound of Old Time and hillbilly music was an amalgamation of British-Irish folk music,minstrelsy, parlor songs, and African-American music and more, all worked over by the the performing tradition (for an audience) and domestic tradition (for friends and family).

Old Time and hillbilly drew from the oral tradition and in turn contributed songs and tunes back to traditional musicians. Just as can seen in broadside balladry, there was a symbiotic relationship between commercial sources and traditional sources. The idea that the recording industry foisted this music upon a gullible public is ahistorical and ignores the degree to which culture is fluid, moving in and out of the realms of commerce and tradition, between old forms and innovations.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:50 PM

I think you could also say that hot flashy solos are frowned upon. It's more about ensemble playing.

A nice new recording of what I would call modern oldtimey { ?? } music is a group called "Uncle Earl".

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:42 PM

If you try to define a style of music in words, you are usually just opening a can of worms. It is almost impossible to do so without resorting to the "Cleethorpes is like Blackpool, but with fewer lights and rides" type of comparison. It can be useful to describe what something is NOT, but difficult to accurately capture "what it IS".
Descriptions only help when you have listened to enough examples of what is being described. In that situation they can help to clarify particular aspects of what you may have heard.
The place I would suggest you start is The Honking Duck an online collection of 701 recordings taken from old 78rpm records - about 35 hours worth of listening (you need something which plays Real-Audio format - see other threads for alternatives).
Once you have dipped into it - there are some absolute gems of stuff - revive this thread and we may be able to help answer your original question by referring to specific performers or styles.
Happy listening,
Quack!
Geoff the Duck (no relation ;-})

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:44 PM

My understanding is that the term "old time" is as Russ suggested and has been used as a market classification term and applied to a wide variety of musics. But I think the term Old-Timey is used by musicologists and other academics to denote a particular genre or Applachian string music usually, but not necessarily, ensemble in nature. The term old-timey is rlatively recent and wouldn't have been used by the original players it describes.

Charlie Poole would be considered old-timey and I think Clarence Ashley would be as well but the Carter Family would not be.

In old-timey music the heavy rhythm is usually squared off to meet the demands of American "hoedown" folk dancing. It has a different feel than Irish or Scottish fiddlers would employ. The five-string banjo is generally played using a clawhammer or drop-thumb technique that reinforces the fundamental rhythm. The basic rhythm might be described in text as dah da-da dah da-da dah da-da, ad infinitum. The guitar, if present, plays a continuously moving series of bass notes often with very little chord. Old-timey bands might include a Jews harp but probably wouldn't include a double bass. A mandolin might be present but it wouldn't be as prominant or as artfully played as is common is bluegrass music.

Modern old-timey players tend to have all the instruments playing the same melody at the same time in unison and they do that until everyone is tired. This wasn't always the practice with the original old-timey bands but seems to be common today.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:55 PM

Dazbo, et al--

I disagree with those who say that OTM is a modern marketing creation,but that may be a question of semantics, and why bother with that. In my humble opinion, "traditional" or "folk" music is marked by:

(1)Frequent but not exclusive use of the ballad form to tell a story, rather than the lyric form to talk about a transient emotion. (Lyric, not lyrics).

(2) In ballads, deliberate prolongation of the narrative by simple repetition, or "question-and-answer" exchanges (who's gonna shoe your little foot?), or what I call "movement and repose." That's a phrase I stole from architecture to describe what happens, e.g., in Stan Rogers' "Barrett's Privateers," where there are eight lines in a verse, but five of them repeat, so you only have three lines to carry the action forward. This comes from an era in which people didn't have too much entertainment. They weren't anxious for the song to end so they could get back to the entertainment--the song WAS the entertainment, 'cause nobody had 837 TV channels and a 24 screen megatheater complex to go to.

(3)Free and easy adaptation of non-original tunes and especially short phrases or couplets, freely shifted from song to song in a way that would send most modern composers to their copyright lawyers at the drop of a dime.

(4) Musically speaking, OTM is more demanding of the ear. Seems to me that in many, many OT tunes there is at some point (timing is everything) a half-step change which could easily be written as a whole step, but isn't. E.g. Wildwood Flower, toward the end of the third line. It's on the words "emerald dew"--emerald goes up and down em-er-ald. Going up a whole step is easy; going up a half step is OTM.

(5) More stuff in the OTM category is modal or minor, than now. But I must disagree with the "it's all slow and stately" characterization. Nothing S&S about "Old Dan Tucker" or "Poor Howard," which are definitely OT songs. Depends on the subject matter; yes, "Delia's Gone" has to be S&S cause hey, she's dead, yuh know? OT folks had the same gamut of emotion as NA (Nu Age) folks, so they had to span the same range of emotions.

(6) Back to the ballad thing, there's a great deal of teaching, or socialization going on. Now listen to me, son: if you run your engine right, you'll get there just on time; and as for you, daughter, well be careful because there's not one boy in a hundred a poor girl can trust.

(7) Shipwrecks, trainwrecks and other such disasters were remembered a lot more in OTM. It's the tribe's way of saying, "We'll remember you after you're gone." What I'd consider OT songs were written well into the modern mechanized age, but to me, most sound incongruous and somehow I can't take them seriously unless they are trying for a tongue in cheek comic touch--"I Heard the Crash on the Highway" and Seeger's "Strontium 90" are in this last generation. We do (at least in the US of A) retain our fondness for idealizing truly nasty sociopaths as some sort of freedom fighters. So the OT "Jesse James," "Railroad Bill," etc. set the tone for "Pretty Boy Floyd," "I'll Sing You a True Song of Billy the Kid," "The Legend of Bonnie and Clyde," etc. Americans today forgive the Confederates for being slaveholders and idolize them because they stood for small government v. big; banks foreclosed and Jesse James robbed banks, ergo he is GOOD, even though he'd probl'y kill you as soon as look at you if you were a damn Yankee and had a nice watch.

(8) Instruments? Whatever's handy. I was doing a "wallpaper" gig playing a lap dulcimer once. Kid comes up, listens for two minutes, pulls a harmonica out of his pocket and says, "Can you play the blues on that thing?" Why not? I suppose drummer boys and buglers must have jammed their way through a few wars along the line. Don't forget the washboard, autoharp, jug, gutbucket, kazoo, "Jew's harp" (jaw harp, really), celaphane comb, etc. Frank Zappa played a bicycle once; possibilities are endless.

Gotta go. Good thing or I'd never shut up. Whaddya think. Make any sense???

Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GLoux
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM

Here's an article by Mark Humphrey that takes a crack at answering,
"What is old-time music?" David Lynch has it posted at his old-time music web site.

Labels are necessary components of the ideas and experiences we fit into our lives. With labels, we differentiate. Where would marketing be without them? Some labels have the ability to be simultaneously pleasing and/or pejorative, depending on one's point of view. Such a label is `old time music.' We may interpret it to denote (A) hopelessly outdated music or (B) deeply authentic music. Could it be both, music rooted in pre-video (even pre-radio) rural America and thus heroically anachronistic?

`Old time music' may suggest sounds rooted in pre-mass media Americana, but it is no less a marketing label than is `urban' (contemporary black music) or `young country' (post-Garth Nashville pop). It's just an older sales hook. This one can be traced to 1923, when Georgia's Fiddlin' John Carson waxed The Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane and The Old Hen Cackled and the Rooster's Going to Crow for the OKeh label. Legendary A-man Ralph Peer deemed Carson's performance "pluperfect awful," but enough rural Americans disagreed to make the record a hit, the first in the history of what's now called country music. (Ever the pragmatist, Carson remarked at his first whiff of success:, "I'll have to quit making moonshine and start making records.") Carson's paean to barnyard fertility rites and bucolic cabins initially appeared in OKeh's popular music catalog, where it kept uneasy company with slicker stuff. Where to put such downhome keening and sawing? The company which had three years prior pioneered `race' recording with Mamie Smith's "Crazy Blues" opted for `old time music' as a descriptive moniker for records by artists of Carson's ilk, and OKeh's label has prevailed.

But just what was a 1920s commercial record company selling with `old-time music'? Something not jazz age surely, but what specifically? [Old-time banjo picker] Clarence Ashley's observations suggest that the record companies, at least from the artists' viewpoint, had a dim understanding of this music, though we sense a general `grasp of genre' when reviewing vintage `old time music' recordings today. A few obvious generalizations bear witness to this. Most of the `old time' musicians were white rural agrarian Southerners. Their singing, by European art music standards, was unschooled (though not necessarily `artless'). The same might be said of their musicianship, expressed primarily via strings. Their song repertoire could be broadly divided between secular and sacred and further subdivided into categories of traditional, commercial (often of sufficient vintage to have entered oral tradition), and original (often topical and tragic) songs. These general elements are found equally in the commercial `old time music' recordings of the 1920s and in the performances captured decades later.

`Old time music,' then, is a music rich in cultural continuity. Alan Lomax has written in his essay "Folk Song Style" (American Anthropologist, LXI, No. 6, December 1959) that such music is intent to "give the listener a feeling of security, for it symbolizes the place where he was born, his earliest childhood satisfactions, his religious experience, his pleasure in community doings, his courtship and his work - any or all of these personality-shaping experiences." Such music, drenched deep in its listeners' "personality-shaping experiences," is inherently powerful, and was especially so in a culture, marginally literate and pre-electronic, where it was among the strongest threads of the social fabric. Religious faith and fable (Daniel Prayed) were underscored in song. Socially accepted pleasures (square dancing) were set to brisk rhythms and tunes. Balladic sagas of the bad (John Hardy) and the beautiful (The Four Marys) were more readily remembered (and strikingly heard) when Sung. Resonant in meaning and methodology, `old time music' had been the heartbeat of Anglo-Celtic Southern America for many generations. By the time it became a marketing label which celebrated its own quaintness, its days were numbered. The technology which enables us to savor Fiddlin' John Carson 70 years after his heyday also heralded the demise of the charmed circle of oral tradition and relative isolation which had nurtured old time music since the coming of the South's first Anglo-Celtic settlers.

The notion that this tradition was simultaneously endangered by twentieth century modernity yet preserved in the remote South was dramatized by English folklorist Cecil Sharp's 1916-1918 song-collecting field trip, the fruits of which were published in 1919 as English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians. Sharp found American variants of many hoary British ballads with impressive pedigrees. Songs scarcely remembered in their land of origin still held a kind of `racial memory' spell over Southern descendants of expatriated yeomen. But the ballad tradition was not static: newer songs of outlaws and train wrecks sprang up alongside old ones of knights and ladies. In a rural society where newspapers were rare outside cities and literacy limited, the ballad makers filled the role of dramatist/news anchor. This Southern penchant for story songs, often of a morbid bent, remained a striking element of even commercial country music until fairly recently.

[If many documented old-time performances] are of ballads, plenty more illustrate varied instruments and instrumental styles. By far the oldest type of instrument played [in this genre] is the Appalachian dulcimer, though technically this `mountain dulcimer' is misnamed: true dulcimers are struck with beaters (thus `hammered dulcimer' is redundant). A plucked zither, the Appalachian dulcimer's basic design is ancient: the legendary Pythagorean Monochord, from whence the rudiments of the diatonic major scale were supposedly derived some 2500 years ago, may have looked similar. The instrument's antiquity belies the fact that it was a relative latecomer to the American South. It didn't come over on the Mayflower or any other ship of British origin. Germans and other Northern Europeans apparently brought such instruments in the 19th century, when they were spread via the Pennsylvania side of the Appalachians into the American South. A newcomer as late as the 1890s, the Appalachian dulcimer's apparently medieval design and penchant for modal tunes disguised the fact that it was, among folk instruments in the South, a new kid on the block.

Though more modern in design and far more difficult to play, the unchallenged favorite instrument for generations of Americans was the fiddle. The first documented fiddle contest in America took place in 1736; for two centuries fiddlers were necessary components of most successful social functions, especially anywhere dancing might occur. Often deemed a mite disreputable, the fiddler was a living repository of tradition who imbued venerable tunes with fresh fingerprints, a characteristic assertion fell variously in the gloriously unpolished [performances of] Tommy Jarrell and the more disciplined (but no less spirited) [of] Marion Sommers.

Despite the European background of much of this music and of such instruments as the fiddle, the influence of African-American phrasing and syncopation profoundly affected old time music. (This influence becomes particularly striking when you compare American stringband music to that of Canada, a New World culture which lacked a significant African-American presence.) The banjo is the most obvious legacy of African-Americans in old time music, for the instrument itself is African in origin. It came to white Southerners via the nineteenth century minstrel show, vestiges of which echoed in such performers as Uncle Dave Macon, an early Opry star imitated [more recently] by his longtime accompanist, Sam McGee. Compared to the banjo, the guitar was both a latecomer and a folk instrument by commercial fiat. It was in the late nineteenth century that such mail order catalogues as Sears & Roebuck made inexpensive mass-produced guitars widely available, and it was by such prosaic means that the guitar and mandolin entered Appalachia. The emergence of a Doc Watson was unforeseen by the catalog dispensers.

There is a sketchy background of old time music and the means by which it was made. The social and natural environments which nurtured this music are no less important to understanding it than are matters of instruments and ethnicity, but the interested reader will look elsewhere to learn of them. During the folk music revivals which spanned the late 1950s-70s, much of the extraordinary music recorded by commercial labels in the 1920s was reissued, legendary artists were rediscovered, and previously unheard exponents of the `old time' tradition were likewise found and brought to perform at folk festivals. It was an exciting epoch which coupled `living legends' like Clarence Ashley and Tommy Jarrell with younger incarnations of the `old time' spirit (New Lost City Ramblers, Red Clay Ramblers, etc.). Some fine music was played and a fitting `last hurrah' was sung to a final generation of musicians who absorbed this music by osmosis as their primary music, a core "personality-shaping experience." By the time men like Roscoe Holcomb were passing from the scene such young rural Kentuckians as Ricky Skaggs were aggressively moving into Nashville's commercial mainstream. Skaggs made it in 1981 (the year of Holcomb's death) with a country-rock version of Lester Flatt's Don't Get Above Your Raising; by then a Kentucky boy's raisin' was more apt to include Led Zeppelin than the `lassy-makin' tunes' of Clarence Ashley's youth. The heavy metal hillbilly rant of the Kentucky Headhunters soon followed (their first hit was a buckskin-and-downers version of Bill Monroe's Walk Softly on This Heart of Mine), and the [genre of] `old time music' receded like dream fragments of ancient ballads saved fast in the memories of a dwindling few tradition keepers.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Dead Horse
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:19 PM

If you are unfortunate enough to be stuck in a bluegrassy type festival in Britain where Old Time-y abounds, you come away with the feeling that it was very much Old Same-y ;-)

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Al
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:22 PM

Mark, as an oldtime fiddler for the past 33 years, I have to disagree with you about bass not being a part of it. Having a bass play with you really sets the music off and frees everyone up. It gives it that driving sound we all look for. Bass is always welcome in any oldtime band or jam session. Jews harp? I've never played with one! Mandolin is iffy. It takes someone with great finesse and feel to blend in well with oldtime, but it can be done. What is oldtime music? You know it when you hear it. And once you've heard it, then you'll know. Until then, no verbal description will suffice.
Al

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM

Peg and Awl, I think is a classic old-time number.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:27 PM

Such an opportunity! Mark Humphrey's article (posted by Greg Loux) gives an introduction.

Dazbo (addressing you directly) one way to find out would be to come to one of our gigs over the next couple weeks. The Orpheus Supertones, an old-time group in which I have the honor to participate, is going to spend most of September 14-26 in southwest England and will in fact be at the Cornwall Bluegrass Festival that first weekend. You'll hear several bluegrass groups, and us. . . and then you'll have a better idea.

   Of course, that carried the hubristic assumption of "what we play is a good example of old-time music." Our usual lineup is two fiddles (Clare Milliner, Walt Koken), banjo (me), and guitar (Kellie Allen) --no bass. Since I fell in love with Charlie Poole's music over 40 years ago, the banjo is played (if I'm playing it) in Poole's style, which is an old 3-finger style derived from "classical' banjo playing, not Bluegrass banjo and also not Clawhammer. We also switch off so that we have Walt
playing in a very traditional and very good clawhammer (or frailing) banjo, I'm either playing 2nd banjo or switch to guitar. The kind of music we play can often be used as dance music for square dancing and contra dancing. We also love the squirrely, irregular tunes which arose out of the mountains and hollows of West Virginia and Kentucky and can't be danced to. When we sing, we are often telling stories, ballads such as the Carter Family sang, or lamenting a lost love (Bury Me Under the Willow) or a protest song from 1930 (Prohibition is a Failure). We believe the singing is at least as important as the playing.

Of course, the most fun is to learn to make it yourself, and you'll find that old time music, more than anything else, is a social music, an opportunity to get together with friends and make music. Hope you'll do that!

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: BanjoRay
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:08 PM

Having seen the Orpheus Supertones jamming at Mount Airy festival in North Carolina I can tell you that it is definitely a GREAT idea to go and see them. Here's their itinerary:

Thur. Sept 15: Merlin Theatre, Frome, Somerset
Sept 16-18 Cornish Bluegrass Festival, Hendra Holiday Park, Newquay, Cornwall
Fri. Sept 23: Bodmin Folk Club, The Garland Ox, Bodmin, Cornwall
Sat. Sept 24: Bridgwater Arts Centre, Bridgwater, Somerset

These guys are as good as it gets.

Ray
*********************************************
Friends Of American Old Time Music And Dance
Foaotmad
*********************************************

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:10 PM

if you just listen to 3-4 records by The New Lost City Ramblers, you'll have an idea of what it's supposed to be, as they tried to emulate it in modern times...then you can debate with everyone else about how close various groups come to the mystical 'ideal'.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

Good discussion.

My claim was quite intentionally precise:
the TERM "old time" is an invention of marketers. I did NOT claim that the MUSIC was invented by marketers.

Also, in memory serves me, the same marketers also used the term "Old timey."

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:36 PM

"old-timey" is, at least, one category that is not usually stretched and diluted too much. It hasn't been co-opted by others thrying to cram 27 other things under it. Very handy.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:41 AM

In an earlier post, Al said…

Mark, as an oldtime fiddler for the past 33 years, I have to disagree with you about bass not being a part of it. Having a bass play with you really sets the music off and frees everyone up. It gives it that driving sound we all look for. Bass is always welcome in any oldtime band or jam session.

I quite agree that the bass is desireable and modern ensembles playing the music of the original old-timey bands sometimes use one to good advantage. But bands such as the New Lost City Ramblers who worked to faithfully recreate the old-timey sound didn't include a bass because the original bands whose work they were performing didn't use one either.

When you consider the history of old-timey music, the fiddle and banjo were the primary instruments partly because they were highly portable and widely available. Guitars were originally rare and came into widespread use beginning in the 1920s. But a string bass would have been too cumbersome to carry on horseback or a small wagon. Even a Model-T would be taxed to carry a string bass around to dances and shows.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:44 AM

So who played tea-chest and washtub basses then?

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 03:48 AM

Yes, but the guitar generally played the role of bass instrument in Old Time / hillbilly music. I don't think there's anything wrong with using a stand-up bass when playing a contemporary reworking of the style. What about those tenor guitars that showed up on country recordings in the 1950s and 1960s? Or those twangy-sounding Danelectro basses? How do you draw a line between guitar/tenor guitar/'twangy' bass? The bass was there in Old Time music, how you achieve the 'bass' sound is open to interpretation.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:19 AM

Does anyone agree that SIMPLICITY is a key apect of this music?
I don't mean artlessness, easy, or anything like that.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: BanjoRay
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:43 AM

Simplicity is a common aspect much of the time, but some of the squirrely crooked tunes take a LOT of getting your head round. And the simple tunes take many years experience before you're playing them in good style.
Ray

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

Of course they do, never said otherwise, but to my mind if you start complicating matters, it loses the old timey feel.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 08:00 AM

Thanks for all your replies: all very informative and interesting.

Pete P: I'd love to come and see you but it's the wrong end of the country. I'll definitely keep an eye out to see if you ever come up to Yorkshire.

To all:Is there a compilation CD out that would, in your opinion, best illustrate the genre?

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: GLoux
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM

In the liner notes to Dirk Powell's "Time Again" CD, author Charles Frazier writes:

"The term Old-Time Music has always seemed odd to me, since the music in question harks back not to an older but to a younger America, a culture with more direct access to unfiltered and unmediated feelings about death and life, grief and exuberance, loss and desire."

I recommend that you follow the link in my earlier post to David Lynch's web site to learn more. Also, you've got a terrific resource in BanjoRay...

-Greg

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:22 PM

GUEST,Dazbo, There is a very good compilation of old time music from various well-known artists available from Smithsonian Folkways Recordings. The compilation is called Clasic Old-Time Music. If you order this, consider ordering from Camsco Records (yellow inset at the top of the Mudcat forum page) as Dick helps support this site as well.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:27 PM

Oops! I see the yellow inset at the top changes content so you might not see the Camsco information. Instead, click on "Record Shop" in the horizontal menu at the top of the page.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Fortunato
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

"What does it sound like?"

It sounds like the bitter taste of ground sassafras leaves on the tongue.

Or, if it chooses you, it sounds like someone calling your name.

Don't resist, but, above all, don't mistake the finger pointing for the moon.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: MissouriMud
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

I was out of town when this post first went up and it looks to be pretty well covered by now - but as an Old Time guitarist I still want to put my two cents on the dead horse.

Old Time music in its current form covers a fair amount of ground (much of it overlapping other genres) as does any "label".   There are certain tendencies, however, many of which you find frequently in Old Time. Naturally little of the following applies in all cases – exceptions are the rule.

The Old Time body of music is based to some degree on the written compilations and audio recordings made in and around the 1920s and 30s (and the recorded rural radio shows of the time) by, of and/or from musicians who played the music and style they had learned over the previous 50 years, including materials they had in turn learned from older generations.   Much of it did come from the US south and southern midwest – but by no means all.   Some of the music was "performed music" that had been played professionally in city dance halls and minstrel shows, but some of it was just tunes played in the hills on back porches or at the Saturday night barn dance. A lot of it originally was vocal including ballads – but some of that is being lost and in some groups the instrumental component is emphasized.   Since that is the portion of Old Time Music with which I deal and am most familiar I am going to limit most of the rest of my comments to that subgroup – but it is not the only aspect of Old Time Music. To some degree it is an economic issue – one of the easiest ways for an Old Time musician to make money is by playing at square and contradances - so that aspect - the instrumental dance music portion of the Old Time spectrum - tends to be played and passed on disproportionately to some of the other parts.

The instrumental music tends to include a blend of old English, Irish and Scottish based fiddle tunes (reels and hornpipes, a few waltzes etc) fused with African American banjo music all mish-mashed together over the generations but there are other influences - such as French and Canadian. Two examples of the types of tune considered as Old Time instrumental dance tunes which are still somewhat widely known are Turkey in the Straw (known by various other names) and Arkansas Traveler. They do have words but we tend to treat the words as being secondary and normally omit them. Some of the words of these tunes were just floating verses that musicians tacked onto the tune becuase the local church didnt like tunes without words (dance music) as opposed to tunes with words (parlor games). Other times the words just dont make much sense today - but a lot of Old Time music is still sung - check out Bruce Molsky or Dirk Powell, they always include some vocals.

People do write new tunes in the Old Time style which receive various degrees of acceptance - some insist on a 19th or early 20th century pedigree – but others are more flexible and many tunes written since 1940 are played by most Old Time groups if the style is right.   Even some Old Time vocal music is recently written.

A significant percentage of the tunes are relatively short often two 8 measure (in 4/4 time at least) stanzas - which are often played in an AA BB format.   Many tunes which didn't quite fit this mold have been "adapted" to it because 32 measures is what works best for square and contra dances - this is called "squaring" a "crooked" tune.   However a lot of "crooked" tunes remain out there and we enjoy playing them in non dance settings because they are so different sounding.

Many of the same tunes are played in both Old Time and Bluegrass styles – the difference is in the style of presentation. Old Time instrumental music and much of its vocal music is typically fiddle driven - with the fiddle providing the primary melody line. Banjo, which is a typical second instrument in the combo, doodles around loosely following the melody – often with clawhammer but finger styles are also used, albiet some effort is made to stay clear of true Scruggs playing.   The guitar is relegated to a backup roll – typically providing the bass, rhythm and harmony chords often with a boom-chuck approach (although this is somewhat dependent on what other instruments are available and local variations as well). Other instruments can include bass, mando (which may track the melody),and occasionally dulcimer, harmonica, jaws harp, banjo/uke, dobro, penny whistle, and accordian, among others. When these tunes are sung the vocal is almost like a break from the instrumental – with the instruments playing softly while the singer does and verse or verse and chorus, and then coming back in.

Besides the heavy reliance on the fiddle and lack of Scruggs banjo, the general style of play is also distinct from bluegrass . In Old Time the musicians typically do not take solo breaks and do not attempt the level of virtuoso adornment (including the guitar G runs) that make bluegrass so unique. The fast dance music is frequently played no faster than the walking pace needed for square of contradances – bluegrass frequently goes at a faster clip.   The lack of solos (other than the voice in vocal songs) and the repetitive nature of the short AABB format tends to make the music seem like the same thing is being played over and over again – especially since dance tunes frequently need to be played for at least 6 to 8 minutes in order to get the dancers back to their starting positions in the dance cycle.   In fact there is a lot of subtle variation going on but it is not as varied as bluegrass – so it is boring to some people.

Much has been made of the hypnotic state that Old Time instrumental players can get into.   There are a number of things going on.   A major goal of many Old Time instrumental players is to achieve a type of perfection of simplicity - sort of an "it's not fancy so lets get every nuance perfect" attitude.   Getting the timing exactly in synch, and making sure the banjo and mando are tracking the fiddle melody just right and having the guitar find just right bass run to compliment it all etc becomes a quest that requires playing the tune over and over with everyone concentrating really hard on all the little details until all are satisfied.   It is important that the players be able to see and hear what each other instrument is doing – so they tend to try to get as much in a circle as possible. Since the fiddle frequently does make minor variations in the course of playing the tune over and over the other players must be attuned to pick those up so you have to practice playing it over and over and over.   Keep in mind that Old Time music is frequently played by groups of musicians who do not regularly play together and the tunes by their nature have a huge number of versions and variations so it is critical to make sure everyone ends up playing the same version – So you play the tune until everyone musically "agrees" on the version, play it a few more times until everyone has all their subtleties perfected, play it a few more times to make sure everyone agrees that the perfect blend has been reached and then play it a few more time because it sounds so good at that point.    The more instruments you have the harder it is to achieve the right blend, but much depends on the experience of the players, their familiarity with the tune and with each other, the nature of the tune etc.   Crooked tunes - which may have a 9 measure part followed by a 7 measure part – or just an extra beat here and there - can take more time than normal because usually every one messes up a few times the first 5 times through it.

This is all called finding the "groove".   It looks dumb to outsiders but it has its place.   You will see this at informal gatherings at festivals and jam sessions more than in performed versions of the tunes – musicians who regularly have played together as a group don't need that many reps and are more sensitive to the audience when performing in public.   As such I suppose there is a sort of selfishness to it in that Old Time musicians that are jamming may care less about how they sound to other people than how they sound to themselves. Since it supposed to be a participatory music form, most of the OT musicians I know would rather that an outsider try to join in a jam than sit and watch it in anyway.   Another aspect of the repetition is in teaching the tunes to people who don't know them at all.   Most people learn a lot of this music by just listening and playing – at our little school here we make an effort at our jams to play the tunes enough times that a person who didn't know it at all at the beginning can play it pretty well by the end.

Yes it bores some people but we love it just the same.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 10:21 AM

SOME of it bores. It seems to me that British bands seem stuck on one sound or one tune. The real "thang" is markedly different.
I can say exactly the same for cajun music, which is my present love.
Most British bands are only just worth listening to. (Boat Band is good, Mr Stephens, sir)
Think I will change my mudcat name to Old Misery Guts!

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: snarky
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

Listen to "Diamond Joe" to hear that old timey sound. Or the Ashley Melody Makers from North Central Arkansas.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM

Gillian Welch has a real old time sound to a lot of her music.

Apparently its manufactured. She's from California with no ties to old time , but her sound is a treat...Ake

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Kaleea
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 05:25 PM

Last evening, as I sat outdoors with my 10 month old neice in this lovely San Diego (Ocean Beach) neighborhood, a youngster in his late 20's happened by with a guitar & we began to chat. During our chat, he referred to The Beatles as "old timely" Music.
   
    What's "old time" Music? Turn on the radio to a station which plays recordings which make us run screaming. Wait a couple of decades. Now, that's old time Music.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 08:20 PM

One of the great places to start your listening is to get the cd called "Old time music from Clarence Tom Ashley's " . put out by Folkways now Smithsonian ( I think ). There are so many great players. . If you had any chance to see Pete Peterson and his gang even at the other side of Briton it would be worth the trip . Ray Allden ( one of the greatest frettless banjo players of our time ) and David Howard have a band that I want to introduce to Banjo Ray so they may get to Yorkshire sometime . Ray is a pritty great frailer at that so you have him and his get togthers to listen in on as well .
          Also can you rent the movie Songcatcher ? There is nothing so powerful as a good Old Time fiddle and there is one in that movie . Sliding a note up to match another plantive note and finding chordal archutecture around the tune can be like nothing else . Its sounds simple but there is lots going on . Ahh Good luck in your search .If I ever get back to Yorkshire I'll put something here at Mudcat and I play some old Time banjo as well .   All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From:
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 02:47 AM

Lovely - couldn't resist commenting - touched my heart - honest -
The

My point. "Old time" has been from the beginning been an artificial construct. Looking for an "essence" is an exercise in futility.

from Guest RUSS.

kind of made my life itself, such eloquence.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 03:10 AM

If it's an artificial construct, there must be an essence for them to be lumped together under that heading.

Subject: RE: The sound of old time (timey) music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 06:42 AM

Well, it didn't grow from a tree and it isn't mined from the earth, so I suppose 'Old Time' is artificial in that sense, but what art form isn't?