Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie

Subject: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

I just read a story that has me amazed.   Last week I received the Dylan:No Direction Home DVD before the PBS airing. After watching the film, I wondered how PBS would handle it.

I watched the broadcast on Channel 13 here in the NYC area. I was happy to see that WNET aired a disclaimer before the film started that it contained "strong language" and viewer discretion was advised.

I was happy to watch Joan Baez and her four-letter word reminisce of Dylan writing songs. It wasn't for shock value, it was simply a conversation.

So I assumed that PBS offered the same uncensored version to all their stations.   Wrong. Apparently Channel 13 in NYC was the ONLY station to offer the "uncensored" version. The other 348 PBS stations chose to air the "clean" version.

Well, I guess the Times They are-a Changin.   We are heading back to the Eisenhower error, I mean era. This country is running scared of a few words and a handful of individuals are determining what you and I have the right to watch.

Screw the FCC and conservatives.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM

The version I saw on PBS contained bleeps left, right and center. @#$%&*ing annoying.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

I guess you aren't in the NYC area Elmer!

I should congratulate WNET for have the courage and common sense to broadcast the film as the director intended.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:15 PM

Ron,

In Syracuse they were Blipped as well. No biggie for me but I do appreciate a non censored world.

Don

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Steve-o
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:18 PM

We were just talking about this around the lunch table. Our PBS station here in the "city of LA" puts bleeps in- I was saying that when Joanie was quoting Bob there were so many bleeps in a 35-word sentence that you had absolutely no clue as to what he might have been talking about! Stupid for the station to do that, but it actually came out pretty funny.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:25 PM

We got the bleeps on Georgia Public Television as well. This is the bible belt, after all, public TV or no public TV. But the bleeps did make it funny. Maybe even funnier than the actual words. Care to post them, Ron, for those of us who live in the censored areas?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, they did a fair amount of "bleeping" here in Seattle, too (KCTS Channel 9), but it doesn't take much imagination to fill in the expletives. I'm waiting for the DVD so I can watch it without some ding-dong trying to "filter" what I hear and "make it mild."

I'm not easy to shock, and Joanie's got style!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:34 PM

There were several "fucks" and a few "shits" scattered throughout, most notably from Joan Baez. (Something about that sentence doesn't sound right!)

Pete Seeger also said "Goddamn" at one point. I'm wondering if that was cut as well.

It just amazes me that in 2005 stations are afraid to air this uncensored. Granted it is public airwaves, but there was a disclaimer and it did not air during "family time".   I don't care if there is a bible belt or not, there should be no need to be afraid of words.

With that said, I do admit that I am cautious about what I play on my radio show. I don't care for gratiutous language - in fact I won't even play a song if the songwriter is particulary verbose!   However, I will NEVER bleep a word out of a song. I may not share the artists vision, but I will never change it.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: R. Padgett
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

This was shown on Uk Tv couple of nights ago I dont believe it was censored and I certainly heard Joan Baez use the f ,all quite in context and i wasnt offended

I thought the documentary movie we saw was very moving and gave a big back drop to the social history in the US in the mid 60s

How US attitudes have changed over the last 40 years on many issues is remarkable and certainly not something that the average working class brit is likely to have considered

Joan Baez account of how Bob was at that time was very revealing in terms of his music approach did he use the mouth organ as anervous prop in case he forgot the words??

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

And meanwhile they are still not allowing photos of the coffins coming back from Iraq.

Making the world safe for hypocrisy.

yours,
Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:31 PM

When one considers how thoughtful Joan is about the power of language, it seems especially offensive that her own words should be censored in the context of a social documentary. I recall having a discussion with a friend about Brendan Behan's The Borstal Boy who thought it wasn't necessary for him to use offensive language to discuss the conditions of the British juvenile penal system. What I found most surprising about Behan's work was that it neither received nor needed much editing even with the offensive language.

I found the recorded criticisms of Dylan's improvisations with the harmonica and guitar strumming on live performances such as Mr. Tambourine Man particularly amusing. Dylan was continually composing in his live performances the same fashion any folk artist is continually modifying the words and melody to their own and others work.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM

It wasn't her language which annoyed me, just her fucking singin!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Regular--but for obvious reasons
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM

In the late 1960s, I lost a contract with a major label because I refused to take the word 'damn' out of a song. We were already at that time five songs into the record. The producer is now dead. He was a very well-known name in the music business--a name everyone would recognize. I mean him no disrespect, but "Fuck censors"!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM

I surely cannot disagree with Ron in his comments about censorship and why one part of the nation (NYC) can air it others are afraid to do that. Or unwilling.

That said, I wonder, however, given the strictures, sadly, imposed on broadcast radio/ TV is the NY outlet for PBS risking its license? If so--- good for them.

I have to admit that to adhere to my station's worries and cares I have bleeped out certain words ---only twice---a Billy Crystal piece that said: "...move your (fuckin') truck.   (---)was bleeped. The other was a John Prine piece---borderline. Great song and I did not want to lose it--so I eliminated the word "shit"==="...just when you're feelin' good a bird (shits) on your hood"---the rest was a wonderful polemic about the beloved W.

I suppose the question is at which point shall we draw lines. All things are in the eyes of the beholder. My own feeling is that one would hope that both Cable and over the air media know where to draw lines and the government should not be the arbiter of such things. I also will admit that I think that over the air media has a bigger responsibility than Cable/Satellite since they are using the public airwaves


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:32 AM

It's a sad state of affairs we're in when people are so afraid of a few words that everyone knows, and most have used with some frequency. There are a lot of truly frightening things in this world; Joan Baez saying "fuck" isn't one of them.

I feel bad for PBS stations that their current status is so tenuous that they have to worry about this stuff.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:43 AM

Joan Baez's language may have been shocking, but not half as shocking as her dreadful arremts to sing along with the glorious Bobby. Do you wonder she wasnt allowed in stage in England in 1965. It was like ladling blancmange onto a steak.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Do you think this is really a the best place to discuss censorship?

Do you think perhaps that it may be as well to first try and ensure that and you and I are free to express ourselves on our forum here - before using it to criticising censorship elsewhere?

You could try on this thread Censorship on Mudcat but this one has been subject to imposed censorship and closure.

Or even this one Closing threads but that has been subject to imposed closure also.

You could just try and join the debate on this one Opening threads a debate which has not been subject to any imposed closure YET………

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:11 AM

There is a difference - this is not a public forum, someone owns this site.   Radio and Television stations are granted licenses in the public trust.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

Ron this is a discussion forum for public contributions on part of a website set aside by Max - for that very purpose.

In any case - the practical difficulties in obtaining freedom of speech here and on the public institutions with the differences in rights you mention - seem to be the same and probably for the same reasons.....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:29 AM

Yeah, I guess so.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:57 AM

Although the regular use of expletives on our forum (by certain posters) is not now thought a problem....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:35 PM

However, I am not sure if our Joan would be so safe - if she decided to post the F word here.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:07 PM

Sounds like you have a few issues you are trying to work out. Good luck with them. I hope we can keep this thread on track.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:38 PM

Not only did we get bleeps here, in Colorado, our cable channels bleep out words AND partial nudity (unless it's bare-chested men), even after all kids should be in bed! I thought that's what why we have cable...uncensored drama, comedy, etc.!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 03:04 PM

Interesting to read peoples' negative reactions to Baez on this thread. I thought she looked as glorious as ever, and given Dylan's shabby treatment of her, was generous, humorous, circumspect and dignified in her assessment of him and his role in her life. She earned the right to more than a few expletives from aspects of that relationship, and chose not to employ them in a negative manner--publically, at least. Good for her.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,wildlone
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:24 PM

The bbc website has clips on, http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/bobdylan/
dave

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,talk dirty to me baby.. yeah!!!
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

you pervy old gits..


you just get off on listening to women talking nasty!!!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

Well said, Elmer Fudd.

B

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: jaze
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:07 PM

Ditto, Brian.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:03 PM

It isn't about cowardice. It's about the huge fines the FCC is levying against stations that allow "the seven words you can't say on television" to be said on television.

$500,000 is a bit steep for most PBS stations. NYC stations have a much larger piece of the public broadcasting pie than, say, Richmond, VA or Boise, ID so can probably afford to take the chance to let the f--- bombs fly.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: van lingle
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:32 AM

They bleeped them in SW Florida, Ron.
What was really remarkable to me was the magnificent sound of Joan's guitar when she played a snippet of "Love is Just a Four Letter Word." Probably was a Martin 0-45 Joan Baez model as it looked rather new. Anyone know for sure? Enough to give a fellow GAS.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:59 AM

Elmer Fudd: your spirited defence of Joan Baez is great. I grant you the dignity, the beauty, the great voice, the fact that Dylan treated her badly, everything. But the fact is, as anyone who watched the film will have noticed, that she completely wrecked Bob Dylan's performance of his very crucial songs, by attempting to join in with them.
So the guy was an artist who had to maintain his own standards, and eventually prevented her from trying. Cruel, sure, but it had to be doe.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:47 AM

Actually, as Joan points out, singing with Bob was difficult at the best of times. It is interesting in the film that she does an amazing job of singing harmony with him on "With
God On Our Side" -- he is all over the place. That she even found a harmony is amazing. I hardly think she wrecked his songs -- he certainly wrecked hers (listen to the Carnegie Hall concerts) -- they were just going in different directions, could happen to anyone.

On the DVD Joan actually sings the whole of Love Is Just A Four Letter Word, very well. I was interested to hear Dylan say she was an excellent guitarist. I have never thought she was much of a guitarist.   I am with Elmer -- she came across as not only beautiful but funny and mature.

Having now seen the film, I think it increasingly bizarre that the words were bleeped out. Whatever you think, "play it fucking loud" is a historic phrase!!!

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:57 AM

Sex In the City on channel ten here, and on channel nine, Baez being bleeped. Actually, I didn't mind the bleeps at all, cause I knew what they were bleeping out. It was obvious. It didn't bother me at all. And it actually was more entertaining to watch her being bleeped than if they let the words through.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:04 AM

I hated Joan's early voice--too forced and phony sounding. Her voice is beautiful now though. But listening to the two of them sing together was just painful. Though it did flash through my mind "how do you harmonize with a bleating goat?" And no, I wasn't thinking Joan.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:19 AM

How does one wreck a Dylan singing performance?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:31 AM

Exactly my point, Mr. Greenhaus.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:52 AM

Yes, yes... (yawn)

I always loved hearing Bob and Joan sing together. It was marvelous. That means I had a good time listening to them and you didn't.

Life's tough, isn't it?

I suggest listening to something you DO like instead, and talking about that. It's way more fun.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 12:31 PM

What makes you think I'm not having lots of fun discussing Dylan?

See, the problem with Dylan worshippers like you Little Hawk, is that you are so pig headed and stubborn in your insistence we all just worship Dylan and be done with it. That we not discuss the particulars of his artistic life and influences. If you are such a great Dylan fan, why aren't you interested in discussing any aspects of his life and work?

Your insistence upon remaining pig ignorant of Dylan and the cast of characters he surrounded himself with reminds me very much of the journalist who insisted that the Triumph t-shirt "meant something".

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:01 PM

I love discussing his artistic life and influences. Have been doing so ever since about 1969. Which specific aspects would you like to discuss today?

(keep in mind that I'm kind of busy today, and I may take some time responding, though...)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:04 PM

Oh, and...who are you? I find talking to a completely nameless vacuum to be an unrewarding experience. You see, some other asshole similar to yourself may answer this, pretending to be you, and no one will have any way to know it is you...which is useless, right? Think about it.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:07 PM

You're right, Little Hawk. I am an asshole. A complete asshole. Always have been. Everything I posted about Dylan on this thread comes from a place of ignorance so deep that I feel sick every time I look in the mirror. Even my dog hates me. I am shit personified. Ignore anything further that I post here.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:09 PM

There, see?

Now how are we to know if that really was you or not?

Get a name, and get a life, or alternatively, just fuck off. Gently.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:15 PM

I heard Baez and Dylan sing together live at a time when they were in love, when Bob's star had risen and they were both musical royalty to millions. Who cared whether their voices blended harmoniously? It was mesmerizing to watch them interact and to feel their mutual passion for their beliefs and values, for Dylan's creativity, and for each other. A measure of that electricity came across in footage of one of the Newport Folk Festivals, when they walked out on stage holding hands and sang "With God on Our Side." They obviously were aware of their power as a couple and reveled in it.

However, you cannot experience the full effect of the magic that their better live performances (Joan explained that Dylan's moods were unpredictable and she had to roll with the punches) worked on audiences during those few brief years from film and recordings. Unfortunately for history, ya had to be there.

I also marvel to realize that they were soooooo young.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:26 PM

You are describing it just as it was, Elmer. Well said. I thought Joan did a super job harmonizing to Bob's melody lines, and she was teriffically adaptable to the changes, of which there were many. Bob tends to be unpredictable. There are some great photos of those duets, and you can feel the magic even there, without hearing the music or the voices.

The juxtaposition of Joan's very pure-toned voice with Bob's rough, Guthrie-esque-cum-Ramblin'JackElliot approach was interesting and curiously effective, in my opinion. It beats hell of out listening to duets such as Diana Ross and Lionel Ritchie (who are technically both darned good singers, but...they do pure schlock).

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:48 PM

But they were out of tune!!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,whaaaa!!!??
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:06 PM

hey elmer mate..


starting to sound like this thread is drifting into gushing
celeb worshipping soap opera territory

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM

I think it is inappropriate to apply "in" or "out" of tune to Dylan; better to think of Dylan as operating in a "tune field" rather than "in" or "out" of tune: it is more like the German Sprechstimme: tones in a tune field.

(I thought I would try something ridiculously pretentious).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:21 PM

Well, I think they were both in different fields, Peter, shouting over the hedges.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:28 PM

greg stephens, it is impossible for any of us to know whether Dylan's refusal to return Baez's favor by including her in his concerts was for artistic or other reasons. I think Ron Olesko said it well on another thread. He's not a guy one would necessarily want to have as a friend or neighbor, but we have been enriched by his artistic genius.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:41 PM

Guest Whaaaa?!!!!, that's jest a teensy bit of a cheap shot, IMO. Acknowledging incredible songwriting, magnificent stage presence and rapport with the audience is a damn sight different from celebrity worship.

I repeat: ya had to be there. Now I'm outta here.

E.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:50 PM

Bloody American news services!

When I think of all the stories that they should be reporting and don't, and then see how worked up they get over something like THIS, what can I say but "!$% Φ#♫@£&Δ*@ψ#$§%!©€#Ξ&♂!!!??"

. . . F[bleep]ing tempest in a teapot!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:25 PM

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, huh?!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:39 PM

Elmer Fudd:--- To respond---- have we??? (his artistic genius). I admire the early works that are now denied as having meaning by him. After that---who knows---he passed pouting and mumbling 101 with and A.

It comes back to whether the emperor has clothes or not---and who will be the first to announce the fact.

If any wants to make the analogy to abstract artists--fine. I think Jackson Pollack is in the same league of --does the emperor have clothes or not. I say he doesn't.

fully dressed with clothes,

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: jaze
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:45 PM

Joan Baez just recently released a live CD called Bowery Songs. She sings songs from throughout her career. She sounds better than she has in a long time. Though burnished with time and experience, her voice sounds great. Maybe she'll finally get some recogniton she deserves in the music business.. like a Grammy.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:00 PM

never been too impressed by dylan..
though i'm getting more into his music as i get older..

anyway.. i was very interested in getting his rolling thunder tour CD when it came out a couple of years ago
cuz its the tour with Mick Ronson [my favourite guitarist]


anyway...... i was put off by reviews that banged on about how
so many of the tracks were spoiled by a distracting
irritating female backing singer..

.. is that true then ????

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:16 PM

Well, she sounded good to me. A matter of personal taste, I guess.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:25 PM

If a film where Joan Baez used the F word was shown on TV in say 1963 - no one would really be too suprised if such words were censored.

In 2005 - where as been pointed out - there are other TV shows where such words (and simulations of the act referred to) can be broadcast - the censorship of our Joan's words can be thought to be surprising.

The big surprise to me is how this form of censorship in 2005 - appears to be so calmly accepted by the adult audience - the film in question was aimed at.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,connecting the f-stops
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:28 PM

Uh, so let me see if I've got this straight:

Joan Baez

said the F-word
sang "Love is Just a Four Letter Word"
and got screwed by Dylan in more ways than one.

Sounds like a whole ot of effing goin' on.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:33 PM

"Sounds like a whole ot of effing goin' on."

Wasn't that Jerry Lee Lewis?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,connecting the f-stops
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:39 PM

Yep.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:48 PM

Back in college days, when Baez was still unlined but already a cult figure, some buds of mine went to see her in concert and she told a joke with the 'F' word which made a minor splash, in that my friends remembered it better than the music. Which was also good.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,connecting the f-stops
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:53 PM

BTW to Peace, LOL to your "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" post. That's the spirit.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:08 PM

It was always a bit surprising when Joan swore in public, because her performance style and delivery seemed so pure. She was called "the Madonna", after all, for that very reason. When Dylan's management were trying to decide what to title a new book he had written, she suggested to them, "Why not call it 'Fuck You'?", while Dylan stood by, poker-faced. It must have been a hilarious moment.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:39 PM

When did Bob Dylan say that his songs had no meaning to him? I missed that quote.

Little Hawk - if you haven't done so, read the autobiography that Joan Baez wrote. I remember when I first read it that I was amazed at how different her public personna seemed to be from what she was writing. I guess it is another case of the press twisting images.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:56 PM

"A Voice To Sing With"? I've read it. It's one of the two best autobiographies I've read, the other being "The Ragman's Son" by Kirk Douglas.

She also had an earlier autobiography from the late 60's called "Daybreak". It's a more slender book, but enjoyable.

She's a remarkable woman.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Taras Bulba
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM

I heard Yul Bryners book is quite good

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:22 AM

The strange world of Bob and Joan was far less interesting than John and Yoko's exploits and a lot less entertaining to be honest. The documentary was aimed at deifying Bobby Zimmerman and succeeded in increasing his sales figures tenfold over the last week ( a major feat in itself ). However, as a window into a time of great change and upheaval the program failed to crystalise any sense of true perspective and set poor Bobby in the role of spokesman of a generation by proxy. I found the contributors, including Joan, to be less guiding lights and more like candidates for a Therapy Group.Mr. Zimmerman, back then in monochrome, mocked and juxtoposed in a fascinating display of youthful exhuberant rhetoric and, in his modern day guise of brother of Willie Nelson, said far more with his world weary eyes than his affected southern twang.It says it all that certain people here are far more interested in Joan's four letter word tirades than Bobby's defining moment in music. Scorcese has failed once again to hit the mark as he did when trying to immortalise "The Band" in their last hurrah - you still have the feeling that really you had to have been there at the time.Sadly, Joan Baez's forty five year career has left her bitter and proferring expletives to grab peoples attention - Ginsberg's fiery prose really took a while to register with her but boy! she gets it now.

It Ain't Me Babe.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:57 AM

I found a "A Voice to Sing With" rather sad to read. She is so pompous, and unaware of those around her, and lacking any sense of self-criticism. It doesnt seem to have seriously crossed her mind in 40 years that dear Bobby maybe just didnt like singing with her, because their voices didnt fit. She liked being with a genius, but she hadn't got enough nous to realise that a genius might just be creating a picture that she wasn't in. Mind, the other girl friend lurking in the wings probably had something to do with it too.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:49 AM

However, as a window into a time of great change and upheaval the program failed to crystalise any sense of true perspective and set poor Bobby in the role of spokesman of a generation by proxy.

If the word proxy means authorised to speak on behalf of others - that was not the case in fact and Bob Dylan made it quite clear that it was not his wish either to speak on behalf of a generation.

I couldn't help by be reminded by the film that in a practical sense those songs were a product of a reality that Bob Dylan's generation of young people shared. That we may have not asked and he may not have agreed - but to some extent - his songs then - were not perhaps speaking for a generation but were expressing the wishes and concerns of that generation.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST, Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:34 AM

Why is it so hard to believe that he lies?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:25 AM

If you love people, you can see a lot of good in them. If you don't, then not.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:06 PM

I must admit that I find claims as "No one else ever said what Bob was saying," the claims that he invented the protest song and that he somehow had a finger on the pulse of some Jungian Collective Consciousness like no one else exaggerated at best, and a great insult to singers like Billy Holiday, Sam Cooke and even white singers like the Carter Family. That being said, I find it impossible to brush aside Dylan's ability to express himself in a variety genres and the legacy he leaves, all without possessing a great deal of musical ability. It was stunning to see Dylan state on the Steve Allen Show that he had been only writing songs "for two years." Dylan seemed about as surprised as Allen at his own accomplishment.

B

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:14 PM

I really liked the documentary, particularly the juxtaposition of Dylan then and now, and the memories of other band members. But, I also sense that Sidewinder has reasons behind his/her comments and if Sidewinder would care to expand on 'em I'm interested. I respect Scorsese the filmmaker and believe he's pretty perceptive but he's definitely not perfect (Gangs of New York a case in point). I liked this documentary. I think Dylan comes off as consistent in that he's putting the songs "out there" but has resisted the all-too-common impulse to become 'branded with meaning', which Joan Baez was quite eager to take on. I liked her as well and her language didn't bother me. I also picked up the 'sense of folk' music that made many people adore the young Dylan and feel almost violated as he changed. He's all about change.

Sophisticated Beggar if you have some background to fill in your dissatisfaction, this is your opportunity. Otherwise you sound bitter and dyspeptic. What's he lying about?

The other documentary being aired on PBS is a homage to the early Beatles through the eyes of Pete Best which totally leaves me cold. If you magnify any particular contretemps a thousandfold, you can make the life of an ant incredibly interesting, but what of it. The Dylan documentary captures much more of the relationships and events that influenced me and many others, whereas who became the Beatles' drummer is a matter of low order.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:24 PM

Me not satisfied?

As in "You're a cow, give me some milk or else go home"?

You're mixing me up with someone else. If I need a song I write one, but good luck to him anyway.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM

That line clearly refers to a man ejaculating (or being expected to). The "one-eyed midget" is clearly a penis. The whole verse (and much of the song) is about sexual scenarios. I always wondered why Bob put all those male sexual images in "Ballad of a Thin Man", when he did not in any other songs (as far as I know). It's quite a strange song, filled with alienation, anger, and hatred.

Baez detested most of the material on "Highway 61 Revisited", precisely because of the general mood of extreme alienation and anger that it expressed. She and Bob were not communicating well at all at that time (having broken off their relationship).

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:09 PM

I have to say after hearing and airing part 2 of the documentary--No Direction Home these few lines from the Gilbert & Sullivan Operetta "Patience" occurred to me===sung about the aesthetic who flits about the story to his own drummer and for his own benefit and no one calls him on it----"...and if this young man expresses himself in terms too deep for me/ then what a most particularly deep young man this deep young man must be"

Just seemed so Dylanesque. Guess you know where I stand about the Emperor's Clothes.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:54 PM

It sounds like it might have been said about Dylan, but it doesn't sound Dylanesque in the least....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:08 PM

Exactly---about Dylan and not "Dylanesque". Thanks for the correction---and it was written in about 1898---how Gilbert did anticipate The Bob

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:31 PM

Well, if Bob had been around in 1820, he might have anticipated Gilbert too... ;-)

(you never know)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:02 PM

Stop. Wait just a minute. This is starting to sound like a Carly Simon song. did Molliere anticipate Gilbert?

B.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:36 PM

Bobby was sayin hands off, I'm not your prick.

How can I explain, ... so hard to get on. You would not believe what a young lad had to do to get on. I heard it first hand from some who did, no names mentioned.

That's one of the lies, the not rememberin. Hoochie Coochie. Too much of nothing not to look back on.

Madhouse on Castle Street. If there is a tape ask yourself who most likely has it, and what he's like when the Idiot Wind hits heavy on his borderline.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:44 PM

I like the explanation in your first line, but so what? Is Bob's sex life really anyone's business? Is Joan's sex life really anyone's business? No more than yours or mine is.

"with my belt wrapped around my head, and you, just sittin' there.."

"you look so fine in it, honey can I jump on it some time?"

"I bit into the root of the forbidden fruit, with the juice runnin' down my leg"

etc....

His songs are full of sexual double entendres, but not swear words. That's one of the things that's kind of cool about his writing. It's raunchy and tasteful at the same time. That indicates intelligence, rather than the desire merely to shock (as is typical with most rockers). He doesn't seem to smoke on stage either, though he smokes like a chimney offstage. I appreciate his sense of propriety when it comes to musical performing.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:47 PM

Now that---Sophisticated Beggar---sounds Dylanesque. Of course a sophisticated beggar might be an oxymoron---are beggars sophisticated? I gues they could be. Can obscure people be understood===I guess they could be---by other obscurians that are part of the multitude afraid to say---Oh my---The Emperor has no clothes.


Bill H

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:30 PM

Good thing Dylan was never obscure.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:22 PM

Or at least only on the rarest of occasions... ;-)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 05:10 PM

My heart keeps telling me I love you but you're strange.

-Abandoned Love, 1985

One of Bob's more lucid moments.

Brían

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 06:41 PM

Anyhow sophisticated beggar, you tried, clipped and torn, been there and done it, you done it, nudge nudge, say no more....what's it like?

I never much listened to Dylan until I took a friend on his first Winter campout crampons, ice axes, special felt inner lined boots, the works. Friend kept humming something from "Isis":

"The wind it was howling, the snow was outrageous
We chopped through the night and we chopped throgh the dawn
When he died I was hoping it was not contagious
But I made up my mind I had to go on."

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 06:58 PM

Joan tends to swear quite a bit when she's joking around. I don't know why she does that, but in her case it's sort of cute...although you don't always expect it. She seems to bounce back and forth between absolutely queenly dignity and teen-like rebellious acting out.

Of course, when she quotes small talk with Bob Dylan she's GOT to swear if she is going to quote it accurately.

Ever heard her mimic his singing style in concert? She can't manage the gravelly roughness, but she gets the nasal sneer down fine. Pretty funny to hear.

She does a hilarious imitation of Mary Travers too, singing "500 Miles".

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: jaze
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 07:12 PM

LH. I have a bootleg (shush) of Joan imitating Mary Travers' New Yawk accent on 500 Miles. It is funny. Apparently they were good friends. so she could get away with it. There always seemed to be bad blood between her and Joni Mitchell,though.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:09 AM

What's it like?

300 refugees from Hell, on 4th Street, positively,
with a train to catch, and only one taxi to get into.

If you bump into Loudon Wainwright,
ask if he remembers
... refused a floor spot at the Troubadour.
Ha Ha. Of course he does.

Eaten alive by their own egos.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:36 AM

spoiled beggars
navigating between bears and overflow
that wouldd eat even the toughest cabbie
in front of mountains and frozen land
charged with forgetting that the moon
is a spotlight
earth a
refuge
and
below
the canopy
of the aurora
ego
te
absolvo

(like Data I make no contractions)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:10 AM

there was a girl from Nantucket....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,gg
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:16 AM

"...who liked having sex in a bucket
When one man asked her why
She said, "Listen here, guy,
Either you do it MY way or FUCK it!"