Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:41 PM

Guest Whaaaa?!!!!, that's jest a teensy bit of a cheap shot, IMO. Acknowledging incredible songwriting, magnificent stage presence and rapport with the audience is a damn sight different from celebrity worship.

I repeat: ya had to be there. Now I'm outta here.

E.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:50 PM

Bloody American news services!

When I think of all the stories that they should be reporting and don't, and then see how worked up they get over something like THIS, what can I say but "!$% Φ#♫@£&Δ*@ψ#$§%!©€#Ξ&♂!!!??"

. . . F[bleep]ing tempest in a teapot!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:25 PM

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, huh?!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:39 PM

Elmer Fudd:--- To respond---- have we??? (his artistic genius). I admire the early works that are now denied as having meaning by him. After that---who knows---he passed pouting and mumbling 101 with and A.

It comes back to whether the emperor has clothes or not---and who will be the first to announce the fact.

If any wants to make the analogy to abstract artists--fine. I think Jackson Pollack is in the same league of --does the emperor have clothes or not. I say he doesn't.

fully dressed with clothes,

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: jaze
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:45 PM

Joan Baez just recently released a live CD called Bowery Songs. She sings songs from throughout her career. She sounds better than she has in a long time. Though burnished with time and experience, her voice sounds great. Maybe she'll finally get some recogniton she deserves in the music business.. like a Grammy.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:00 PM

never been too impressed by dylan..
though i'm getting more into his music as i get older..

anyway.. i was very interested in getting his rolling thunder tour CD when it came out a couple of years ago
cuz its the tour with Mick Ronson [my favourite guitarist]


anyway...... i was put off by reviews that banged on about how
so many of the tracks were spoiled by a distracting
irritating female backing singer..

.. is that true then ????

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:16 PM

Well, she sounded good to me. A matter of personal taste, I guess.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:25 PM

If a film where Joan Baez used the F word was shown on TV in say 1963 - no one would really be too suprised if such words were censored.

In 2005 - where as been pointed out - there are other TV shows where such words (and simulations of the act referred to) can be broadcast - the censorship of our Joan's words can be thought to be surprising.

The big surprise to me is how this form of censorship in 2005 - appears to be so calmly accepted by the adult audience - the film in question was aimed at.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,connecting the f-stops
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:28 PM

Uh, so let me see if I've got this straight:

Joan Baez

said the F-word
sang "Love is Just a Four Letter Word"
and got screwed by Dylan in more ways than one.

Sounds like a whole ot of effing goin' on.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:33 PM

"Sounds like a whole ot of effing goin' on."

Wasn't that Jerry Lee Lewis?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,connecting the f-stops
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:39 PM

Yep.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:48 PM

Back in college days, when Baez was still unlined but already a cult figure, some buds of mine went to see her in concert and she told a joke with the 'F' word which made a minor splash, in that my friends remembered it better than the music. Which was also good.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,connecting the f-stops
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:53 PM

BTW to Peace, LOL to your "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" post. That's the spirit.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:08 PM

It was always a bit surprising when Joan swore in public, because her performance style and delivery seemed so pure. She was called "the Madonna", after all, for that very reason. When Dylan's management were trying to decide what to title a new book he had written, she suggested to them, "Why not call it 'Fuck You'?", while Dylan stood by, poker-faced. It must have been a hilarious moment.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:39 PM

When did Bob Dylan say that his songs had no meaning to him? I missed that quote.

Little Hawk - if you haven't done so, read the autobiography that Joan Baez wrote. I remember when I first read it that I was amazed at how different her public personna seemed to be from what she was writing. I guess it is another case of the press twisting images.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:56 PM

"A Voice To Sing With"? I've read it. It's one of the two best autobiographies I've read, the other being "The Ragman's Son" by Kirk Douglas.

She also had an earlier autobiography from the late 60's called "Daybreak". It's a more slender book, but enjoyable.

She's a remarkable woman.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Taras Bulba
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM

I heard Yul Bryners book is quite good

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:22 AM

The strange world of Bob and Joan was far less interesting than John and Yoko's exploits and a lot less entertaining to be honest. The documentary was aimed at deifying Bobby Zimmerman and succeeded in increasing his sales figures tenfold over the last week ( a major feat in itself ). However, as a window into a time of great change and upheaval the program failed to crystalise any sense of true perspective and set poor Bobby in the role of spokesman of a generation by proxy. I found the contributors, including Joan, to be less guiding lights and more like candidates for a Therapy Group.Mr. Zimmerman, back then in monochrome, mocked and juxtoposed in a fascinating display of youthful exhuberant rhetoric and, in his modern day guise of brother of Willie Nelson, said far more with his world weary eyes than his affected southern twang.It says it all that certain people here are far more interested in Joan's four letter word tirades than Bobby's defining moment in music. Scorcese has failed once again to hit the mark as he did when trying to immortalise "The Band" in their last hurrah - you still have the feeling that really you had to have been there at the time.Sadly, Joan Baez's forty five year career has left her bitter and proferring expletives to grab peoples attention - Ginsberg's fiery prose really took a while to register with her but boy! she gets it now.

It Ain't Me Babe.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:57 AM

I found a "A Voice to Sing With" rather sad to read. She is so pompous, and unaware of those around her, and lacking any sense of self-criticism. It doesnt seem to have seriously crossed her mind in 40 years that dear Bobby maybe just didnt like singing with her, because their voices didnt fit. She liked being with a genius, but she hadn't got enough nous to realise that a genius might just be creating a picture that she wasn't in. Mind, the other girl friend lurking in the wings probably had something to do with it too.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:49 AM

However, as a window into a time of great change and upheaval the program failed to crystalise any sense of true perspective and set poor Bobby in the role of spokesman of a generation by proxy.

If the word proxy means authorised to speak on behalf of others - that was not the case in fact and Bob Dylan made it quite clear that it was not his wish either to speak on behalf of a generation.

I couldn't help by be reminded by the film that in a practical sense those songs were a product of a reality that Bob Dylan's generation of young people shared. That we may have not asked and he may not have agreed - but to some extent - his songs then - were not perhaps speaking for a generation but were expressing the wishes and concerns of that generation.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST, Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:34 AM

Why is it so hard to believe that he lies?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:25 AM

If you love people, you can see a lot of good in them. If you don't, then not.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:06 PM

I must admit that I find claims as "No one else ever said what Bob was saying," the claims that he invented the protest song and that he somehow had a finger on the pulse of some Jungian Collective Consciousness like no one else exaggerated at best, and a great insult to singers like Billy Holiday, Sam Cooke and even white singers like the Carter Family. That being said, I find it impossible to brush aside Dylan's ability to express himself in a variety genres and the legacy he leaves, all without possessing a great deal of musical ability. It was stunning to see Dylan state on the Steve Allen Show that he had been only writing songs "for two years." Dylan seemed about as surprised as Allen at his own accomplishment.

B

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:14 PM

I really liked the documentary, particularly the juxtaposition of Dylan then and now, and the memories of other band members. But, I also sense that Sidewinder has reasons behind his/her comments and if Sidewinder would care to expand on 'em I'm interested. I respect Scorsese the filmmaker and believe he's pretty perceptive but he's definitely not perfect (Gangs of New York a case in point). I liked this documentary. I think Dylan comes off as consistent in that he's putting the songs "out there" but has resisted the all-too-common impulse to become 'branded with meaning', which Joan Baez was quite eager to take on. I liked her as well and her language didn't bother me. I also picked up the 'sense of folk' music that made many people adore the young Dylan and feel almost violated as he changed. He's all about change.

Sophisticated Beggar if you have some background to fill in your dissatisfaction, this is your opportunity. Otherwise you sound bitter and dyspeptic. What's he lying about?

The other documentary being aired on PBS is a homage to the early Beatles through the eyes of Pete Best which totally leaves me cold. If you magnify any particular contretemps a thousandfold, you can make the life of an ant incredibly interesting, but what of it. The Dylan documentary captures much more of the relationships and events that influenced me and many others, whereas who became the Beatles' drummer is a matter of low order.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:24 PM

Me not satisfied?

As in "You're a cow, give me some milk or else go home"?

You're mixing me up with someone else. If I need a song I write one, but good luck to him anyway.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM

That line clearly refers to a man ejaculating (or being expected to). The "one-eyed midget" is clearly a penis. The whole verse (and much of the song) is about sexual scenarios. I always wondered why Bob put all those male sexual images in "Ballad of a Thin Man", when he did not in any other songs (as far as I know). It's quite a strange song, filled with alienation, anger, and hatred.

Baez detested most of the material on "Highway 61 Revisited", precisely because of the general mood of extreme alienation and anger that it expressed. She and Bob were not communicating well at all at that time (having broken off their relationship).

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:09 PM

I have to say after hearing and airing part 2 of the documentary--No Direction Home these few lines from the Gilbert & Sullivan Operetta "Patience" occurred to me===sung about the aesthetic who flits about the story to his own drummer and for his own benefit and no one calls him on it----"...and if this young man expresses himself in terms too deep for me/ then what a most particularly deep young man this deep young man must be"

Just seemed so Dylanesque. Guess you know where I stand about the Emperor's Clothes.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:54 PM

It sounds like it might have been said about Dylan, but it doesn't sound Dylanesque in the least....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:08 PM

Exactly---about Dylan and not "Dylanesque". Thanks for the correction---and it was written in about 1898---how Gilbert did anticipate The Bob

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:31 PM

Well, if Bob had been around in 1820, he might have anticipated Gilbert too... ;-)

(you never know)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:02 PM

Stop. Wait just a minute. This is starting to sound like a Carly Simon song. did Molliere anticipate Gilbert?

B.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:36 PM

Bobby was sayin hands off, I'm not your prick.

How can I explain, ... so hard to get on. You would not believe what a young lad had to do to get on. I heard it first hand from some who did, no names mentioned.

That's one of the lies, the not rememberin. Hoochie Coochie. Too much of nothing not to look back on.

Madhouse on Castle Street. If there is a tape ask yourself who most likely has it, and what he's like when the Idiot Wind hits heavy on his borderline.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:44 PM

I like the explanation in your first line, but so what? Is Bob's sex life really anyone's business? Is Joan's sex life really anyone's business? No more than yours or mine is.

"with my belt wrapped around my head, and you, just sittin' there.."

"you look so fine in it, honey can I jump on it some time?"

"I bit into the root of the forbidden fruit, with the juice runnin' down my leg"

etc....

His songs are full of sexual double entendres, but not swear words. That's one of the things that's kind of cool about his writing. It's raunchy and tasteful at the same time. That indicates intelligence, rather than the desire merely to shock (as is typical with most rockers). He doesn't seem to smoke on stage either, though he smokes like a chimney offstage. I appreciate his sense of propriety when it comes to musical performing.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:47 PM

Now that---Sophisticated Beggar---sounds Dylanesque. Of course a sophisticated beggar might be an oxymoron---are beggars sophisticated? I gues they could be. Can obscure people be understood===I guess they could be---by other obscurians that are part of the multitude afraid to say---Oh my---The Emperor has no clothes.


Bill H

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:30 PM

Good thing Dylan was never obscure.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:22 PM

Or at least only on the rarest of occasions... ;-)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 05:10 PM

My heart keeps telling me I love you but you're strange.

-Abandoned Love, 1985

One of Bob's more lucid moments.

Brían

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 06:41 PM

Anyhow sophisticated beggar, you tried, clipped and torn, been there and done it, you done it, nudge nudge, say no more....what's it like?

I never much listened to Dylan until I took a friend on his first Winter campout crampons, ice axes, special felt inner lined boots, the works. Friend kept humming something from "Isis":

"The wind it was howling, the snow was outrageous
We chopped through the night and we chopped throgh the dawn
When he died I was hoping it was not contagious
But I made up my mind I had to go on."

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 06:58 PM

Joan tends to swear quite a bit when she's joking around. I don't know why she does that, but in her case it's sort of cute...although you don't always expect it. She seems to bounce back and forth between absolutely queenly dignity and teen-like rebellious acting out.

Of course, when she quotes small talk with Bob Dylan she's GOT to swear if she is going to quote it accurately.

Ever heard her mimic his singing style in concert? She can't manage the gravelly roughness, but she gets the nasal sneer down fine. Pretty funny to hear.

She does a hilarious imitation of Mary Travers too, singing "500 Miles".

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: jaze
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 07:12 PM

LH. I have a bootleg (shush) of Joan imitating Mary Travers' New Yawk accent on 500 Miles. It is funny. Apparently they were good friends. so she could get away with it. There always seemed to be bad blood between her and Joni Mitchell,though.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:09 AM

What's it like?

300 refugees from Hell, on 4th Street, positively,
with a train to catch, and only one taxi to get into.

If you bump into Loudon Wainwright,
ask if he remembers
... refused a floor spot at the Troubadour.
Ha Ha. Of course he does.

Eaten alive by their own egos.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:36 AM

spoiled beggars
navigating between bears and overflow
that wouldd eat even the toughest cabbie
in front of mountains and frozen land
charged with forgetting that the moon
is a spotlight
earth a
refuge
and
below
the canopy
of the aurora
ego
te
absolvo

(like Data I make no contractions)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:10 AM

there was a girl from Nantucket....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,gg
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:16 AM

"...who liked having sex in a bucket
When one man asked her why
She said, "Listen here, guy,
Either you do it MY way or FUCK it!"