Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan

Subject: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:50 AM

I would like to make some observations on Martin Carthy's account of his first meeting with Bob Dylan.
On the night in question my girlfriend (future wife) was 'on the door' with Anthea Joseph, collecting entrance fees. Anthea was also, more often than not, on the door at the Troubadour with Jenny Barton.
I was hovering around my girl friend like some lovesick swain (I think that's how you spell it!) when Dylan came in. He had a guitar and I asked him if he wanted to sing. He declined and sat at the back of the hall. Martin was compere that night and Nigel Denver and the extraordinary singer Marian Gray (Thamesiders) were on the bill.
I spoke to Martin later and said that an American kid had come in and as he had a guitar, why not ask him up for a song. This happened later and Dylan sang a Guthrie song complete with harmonica round his neck. I remember thinking he was OK but had nothing on Josh MacRae whom I had heard singing Guthrie since the late fifties, in Scotland. I wasn't a singer but Nigel Denver sang a few of my songs and at the interval, Dylan asked if we could talk. We headed down stairs to the toilet and I produced a half bottle of whisky. We were all pretty broke in those days and rather that paying bar prices, we bought a half bottle from the Off Licence and smuggled it in under our coats.
Dylan recoiled from the bottle and muttered something like 'I didn't mean that' but we talked nevertheless about Scottish folk music. He asked me at one point if I were Hamish Henderson! I told him about other clubs in London and met him again a few times in the Troubadour. Our conversation usually went something like this: Dylan 'did you write that?' me 'yes' or 'no' and I would give him an explanation of the song in question. My explanation of Behan's Patriot Game which he turned into God on our Side has been documented elsewhere. I'm afraid I was more concerned with chatting up my girlfriend than talking to Bob. She is Alison Chapman McLean who took many photographs in the Troubadour and elsewhere in the sixties, including the one with Dylan, Eric von Schmidt, Dick Farina, Ethan Signer and Martin Carthy which appears quite regularly on the BBC and various publications etc..
Dylan and I were not each other's cup of tea as he didn't drink whisky .. a terrible sin! and I didn't smoke pot so we never socialised.
At that time Martin, his wife Dorothy, Nigel Denver, Pete Stanley and his wife and myself all lived on the ground floor of a house in Haverstock Hill, Belsize Park. I remember Martin's piano was regularly smashed up for firewood although I never saw Dylan there.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM

I remember seeing Madhouse On Castle Street while I was at home from University. I'd heard recordings of Woody Guthrie with guitar and harmonica and I was extremely impressed to see a really good attempt at the style on the boring old Beeb. The Swan On The River stayed in my brain for years (at least the chorus).
Ray

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

Interesting stuff, Jim. Nice to have been there. I wasnt around London at the time, but I heard the play on the TV. The great Bob was rivetting. A great experience, the first time you hear Blowing in the Wind!
Can you shed any light on Dylan's exposure to Cyril Tawney songs on that trip? From whom, for example, did he hear any? Not from Cyril himself, as far as I have been abale to find out.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM

Hi Greg,
Cyril's songs were sung in the Troubadour, the King and Queen, the Black Horse and the Singers' Club to mention a few so he could have heard them anywhere. He could have heard Cyril as I had a birthday lunch with Cyril, Judy Silver and Nigel Denver and that would have been on the following April, so Cyril could have been around earlier. I'll have a chat with Nigel later as he was appearing at most of the clubs then.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:46 PM

He didnt get any from Cyril directly(according to Cyril, anyway, who told me he'd never met Dylan). But he obviously heard some, so I wondered when and where. It is definitely a pet theory of mine that there was a significant influence there.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Rupert
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:40 AM

Dylan was paid 500GB pounds in 1961. He was a total unknown and admitted he couldn't act so why this tremendous amount of money?

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:54 AM

Rupert, it was late 1962 and he wasn't a TOTAL unknown. The Director of Madhouse had seen Dylan perform live in a NYC coffee house and thought he would be ideal for the part. A man of some foresight.

Thanks for your memories Jim.

For me, one of the best bits of the docu was the little film clip of Ewan MacColl's mother singing.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:20 AM

Tim,the researcher from Arena came up to see my wife regarding pictures and I asked her how Dylan came to be chosen for the play. She said that the Director's wife was a friend of Al Grossman's wife! Grossman was never far away.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:37 AM

Intriguingly, the director interviewed in the Radio Times about the play made a comment about Dylan's role being to sing Blowing in the Wind and to read a poem about a swan. Now, I rememeber very clearly(I think!) him singing a song about a swan, not reading a poem.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:42 AM

Jim, that's probably true, but I still think that Dylan was an inspired choice for the part, even tho he couldn't act and they had to split the character into two, speaking - David Warner, and singing- Dylan. Pity it wasn't mentioned in the docu as it would have further illustrated Grossman's influence, his machivellianism and his devotion to his clients.

The theme of the play is rejection of a world gone wrong, English society, "the madhouse", and an Englishman's home is his castle. The character "Bobby" was a hobo who did his own thing, not bound by social convention. Dylan wasn't a hobo but he certainly did his own thing.

(I still have Alison's other photos in safe keeping. Hope to be able to return them to you soon).

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:52 AM

Getting Bob Dylan on to the play was one coup, the other was the handling of the publicity in Britain so all folkies knew to watch it on TV. We were all well primed that an Important Event was happening.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM

Greg, I've learned my lesson. Very funny!

Actually, Dylan was virtually unknown in Britain at that time. I never knew of, or met, anyone in Glasgow who was a Dylan fan before myself and I didn't discover him until the spring of '63, through an article in either "Newsweek" or "Time".

Using his name to plug the Play might have brought in about half a dozen extra viewers, and turned off about nine!

Jim, did you watch it?

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:04 AM

It's a rather small statistical sample, but I know two other Mudcatters now,that I knew in late 62. And all three of us watched Mad House in Castle Street, because of the publicity about the exciting new singer etc etc. And we hadnt discussed him or Dylan beforehand. So I am suggesting that there was some very good publicity going out at the time that was getting through to the folkies(100% of my sample, in fact).

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:35 AM

No I never saw the original but I watched the show a couple of nights ago. I'm not a Dylan fan but after a visit from the Arena people and 'phone calls from the BBC re the Barbican show (all about Alison's pictures) we felt we should. I didn't learn any thing about Dylan from the show that I did not know already. If you have heard Paul Robeson singing 'No more auction block' then Blowing in the Wind comes over as another Dylan attempt at using an existing song for a 'new' song not an earth shattering composition. Again, Grossman got a couple of his acts to cover it ... Odetta, Peter Paul and Mary. The other three songs he did were trad.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:47 AM

Jim I think you diminish Dylan's achievement. Blowing in the Wind was a shattering experience when you heard it first. You have to remember that the sung was unknown in England till Dylan sung in Madhouse, we hadnt been softened up by Peter Paul and Mary or anything. The song has become so corny since that it is worth while thinking hard about just how good it was pre-Christmas 1962. And yes, I know "No more auction block for me". A good song, but hardly to compare with Blowing in the Wind for impact on a guitar-playing 17-year old wearing a lumberjacket.
   And I have extreme doubts whether the spiritual gave much to Blowing in the Wind. Uses the same notes, one or two of them in the same order. That's about it, as far as I can see. With God on our Side is certainly a reworking of the Patriot Game for example, but you absolutely cannot say that about Blowing in the Wind and Auction Block.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:24 AM

Greg I don't want to go over old ground. I think we see Dylan from different perspectives, you tend to appreciate his guitar playing but I look at him as a composer and the more I read (have read) the more I'm disappointed. This wheels' on fire, tune by Rick Danko with whom he co-wrote the chorus .. he copied Paul Clayton's Who's goin' to buy you ribbons when I'm gone (It's no use to sit and wonder why, babe)which resulted in a law suit..Masters of War written to Nottamun Town....Farewell Angeline...Fareweel tae Tarwathie....etc, etc. He was and is a unique person musically but I'll always see him as a bit of a phoney with a great PR.
And by the way, Paul Robeson was a great favourite in my house in Scotland as my dad had all his records, old 78s on our wind-up gramophone! ...Those were great Saturday nights before the telly.. but that's another story.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:26 AM

I was brought up on Paul Robeson too...but as you say, that's another story.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:36 AM

I remember the publicity approaching the showing of "Madhouse" wherein it was stated that Bob Dylan was a folksinger who was much acclaimed in the States. I tuned into the show and was amazed how young Dylan looked. I was expecting a middle-aged, world-weary sort of character. If I remember correctly, Dylan was sat on the stairs singing and playing. Btw, the first time I recall hearing a Dylan track played on the radio, was in 1962. It was a BBC country music program and they played "Freight Train Blues" from his first album. Is this possibly the first time ever a Dylan recording was played on the radio in Britain?

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:01 AM

Bob Dylan did actually record ' No more Auction Block ' it's on the
Bootleg series, he really does it very well.

eric

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:53 AM

Correct Eric. I haven't heard Paul Robeson's version but I can't imagine anyone singing it better than Dylan.

Jim, re Dylan's early use of trad songs, here's another one! From Dave Van Ronk's "The Mayor of MacDougal Street" -

"Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my [Irish]grandmother's favourites, 'The Chimes of Trinity', a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church that went something like,

Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay,
Tolling for the [something, something] long passed away,
As we whiled away the hours down on old Broadway,
As we listened to the chimes of Trinity".

I don't want to go over old ground either but I want to say that I think tho Dylan may have used an occasional trad hook to get him started, he made his songs distinctively his own, as did Dominic Behan!

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:16 AM

As for Bob Dylan's using traditional tunes and themes for his songs, well this is called the folk process and it's been going on forever and it always will.

Big Tim, Bob obviously got his version of 'No More Auction Block' from Paul Robeson and apart from Pauls magnificent voice, Bob's version in just as good.

eric

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:52 AM

I have no qualms about writers using trad tunes, we all do/did but what excuse does one have in say, for instance, copying the bulk of Paul Clayton's 'Who's gonna buy me ribbons..' and claiming it as his own 'It's no use to sit and wonder why babe..'.
As Dominic said, why did Dylan not write his own song (to the trad tune used by Patriot Game) instead of messing about with his (Dominic's words).
Anyway, I'm going to stop now as we could go round in circles on this thread. Hope you're well, Big Tim

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:03 AM

PS I.m sorry I meant to include Paul Clayton's lyrics for comparison.

It ain't no use to sit and sigh now, darlin,
And it ain't no use to sit and cry now,
T'ain't no use to sit and wonder why, darlin,
Just wonder who's gonna buy you ribbons when I'm gone.

So times on the railroad gettin' hard, babe,
I woke up last night and saw it snow,
Remember what you said to me last summer
When you saw me walkin' down that road.

So I'm walkin' down that long, lonesome road,
You're the one that made me travel on,
But still-I-can't-help wonderin' on my way,
Who's gonna buy you ribbons when I'm gone?

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:08 AM

I take your point Jim, and tend to agree.

eric

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:38 AM

You could say - with some honesty - that Bob Dylan did not make this song worse.

If the world then had been a slightly different place - business and publishing advice wise - Paul Clayton may have received a writing credit? Or at least a co-writing one.

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:02 AM

People have always stolen/borrowed/been influenced by(delete as applicable). The Robin Hood justification is that you steal from the rich and give to the poor. The genius argument is that you vastly improve what you take. The Dylan argument...well, there isnt one, he just did it.And let's face it, he had the most amazingly winning smile, and really cute tousled hair. And that is how the world wags. Dave van Ronk will get a very small footnote in the history of the world( "supplier of famous chord sequence to Bob Dylan and the Animals"). Only very educated people know where Sjhakespeare got his stories from. And who knows who made Alexander the Great's sword?

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:30 AM

Some excellent performances at the Barbican Dylan Tribute Concert on 14 September. I particularly enjoyed Willy Mason (age 20!) "To Ramona", Odetta (age 74!) "Tomorrow is a Long Time", and, "Mr. Tambourine Man" - Wow!, and KT (Katie Tunstall, born 1975) "Tangled Up in Blue".

Subject: RE: Madhouse on Castle Street Dylan
From: GUEST, Sophisticated Beggar
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:27 AM

Watch where the money goes. The tapes were ditched because they knew it is worth more as myth. The real thing was crap.