Tech: Copy protected cds

Subject: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 04:57 AM

I have a couple of John Williamson cds that are copy protected, so I cannot transfer them to my mp3 player. Is there a way to get passed this crap?

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 05:54 AM

There's a reason for the copy protection, and attempts to bypass it are considered illegal nowadays.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:06 AM

If you are in the EU, there is a very interesting argument about whether the directive that makes it a crime to crack copy protection is itself inconstitutional as a breach of the EC treaty. A lawyer might predict one outcome, a cynic the other.

In the USA, the similar issue might turn on the constitutional base for IP laws, and the fact that Title Code 17 has always (as far as I know) permitted copying for personal use. Someone will need to run that one up to the supreme court (preferably while there still is one in stead of a number of wise monkeys sitting on Dubya's porch).

And yes, there are "crackers" out there, but as the law stands using them is probably criminal.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:12 AM

Record it to hard disc as a .wav file using the same software as for vinyl, then re- create the CD from that. There will be some loss of quality, but you probably won't notice.

This post constitutes an illegal act under the Prevention of Copyright Terrorism Act, and could lead to expulsion from the UK as an Illegal Combatant.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: treewind
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:20 AM

There's a reason for copy protection ... but that reason doesn't sensibly apply to making a copy for yourself to use on an MP3 player.

Anybody who wants to make dirty money by ripping off the music, cloning the CD and packaging and selling will just do it. CP won't stop tham at all.

It is TRIVIAL to get round this - just play the CD in an ordinary audio CD player, pipe the output from the CD payer into the input of whatever you want to record on. If the MP3 player can only be loaded from a computer, connect the CD player to your computer's sound "line input" jack and use any sound recording software (Audacity is more than enough, doesn't cost anything and will convert to MP3 for you)

The only thing you can't do with copy protection is make a digital copy, or at least not so easily. Often you can't even play the CD on your computer either.

I've read one anecdote about someone who bought a copy protected CD because the album wasn't available in any other format, and it wouldn't play on his CD player (quite common, by the way). He ripped it with cdparanoia in its most persistent mode and burnt a CDR. He HAD to do that because it was the only way he could actually listen to the music he'd paid for. How dumb is that?

Copy protected CDs are not allowed to have the "CD audio" logo printed on them because they break the standards. Basically unfit for purpose - you should take back to the shop and complain.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:27 AM

I believe it is legal to transfer your own CD to your own mp3 player for personal use. The Apple program iTunes is just one of a number of downloadable programs which allow playback or ripping into various formats.

It is also legal to duplicate a CD of your personal property if you want to protect the original. I listen to a lot of CDs in my truck player and I don't want originals banging around in the glovebox. I also make mix CDs from various other legal sources, some of them original material.

Although I don't use them, there are programs available which will blindly duplicate CDs no matter what is on them. They have legal uses where it is desirable to backup original data precisely as formatted.

The suggestion above, to record the analog feeds from the CDs will work, but is time consuming and loses track information.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:14 AM

I've never met a copy protected CD that JetAudio wouldn't rip without even thinking about it...

Talk about closing the barn door after the horse has run away....

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:08 PM

You do have a right to copy music that you purchase, but the idea is that, when you buy a disc (either a CD or a DVD) that is labelled "Copy Protected" or whatever, you agree to give up that right.

It is important to note that the entertainment industry complains bitterly about the violation of their rights, but has no problem walking all over your rights. If they could figure out a way to get money from you without giving you anything, they would--

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:39 PM

I'm not sure it's right to say that "when you buy a disc (either a CD or a DVD) that is labelled "Copy Protected" or whatever, you agree to give up that right."

I took a course for legal secretaries once, and in one class we learned about contracts. A contract must have four elements. Each party gives up a thing and each party gains a thing. Multiply that by two parties, and you've got four elements.

Suppose I buy a used car from you. I give up money, and you give up the car. I gain the car, and you gain my money. That's the four, and that's a contract.

In the case of the CD, something is missing. I give up money to get the CD, and the mfr gets my money. The mfr takes away my right to copy it, however, and he doesn't pay me anything for that right. One of the elements is missing, and there is no contract.

(Last I heard, under US law, a customer has the right to make one copy of any recording for his personal use. Copyright holders are reimbursed for this by money from the sale of blank recording media.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:13 PM

In Australia, contracts have some more fun implications. If you are forced to agree to some condition, then usually it is unenforceable. They can be called 'unconscionable clauses'. Makes it interesting when you have a clause that tries to take away some 'rights'.

Caused a fuss when the Govt tried to make unemployment benefits 'contracts' - it was ruled that the contract was illegal cause of some of the conditions - govt nervously renamed them 'agreements'... :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 01:49 PM

Having read lots of discussions about this topic.

As far as I can tell, no one understands copyright law.

That is apparently the intent.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:13 PM

I resemble that remark

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:28 PM

I wonder if you could get past this by using an old copy of a burner program that might simply not recognize the copyright protection and duplicate the CD as recorded? I've over the years found that newer programs will refuse to do things that old programs don't balk at. Maybe this is one of those instances. Find an old copy of Roxio (Adaptec), or use one of the free programs mentioned by others above.

Doesn't this also come back to that ring of black marker that one heard could be drawn on protected CDs to get rid of that protection? Has the copyright protection advanced past those early attempts at blocking copying?

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:36 PM

Oh, and no, leenia, the consideration for a collateral contract can reside in entering the primary contact, and in any event the argument would be that the surrender of the right to copy is a term of the primary cntract for which there most clearly is consideration.

The US has laws (not sure whether on a federal or state basis) that affect the enforceability of "contracts of adhesion". The UK Unfair Contract Terms Act only applies to exclusions and indemnities so is irrelevant, but the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations might be of UK interest - but for one thing, there is no private copying right in the UK.

However, it may be arguable that a CD, unlike a vinyl disc, is a computer program, and if so the rights (originated in European law) to decompile and backup (now in I think Sections 50A and following of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act) might enter play - I wrote an article on backups of computer games for Tolley's Computer law once.

But back to the USA - if EU law applied (which it doesn't, but this train of thought is going somewhere eventually) then the contract term that one gave up the right to make a copy for private use might be one that restricted or distorted (distorted because it obliges the purchaser to buy another copy for the car - so it skews the market in favour of the bigger player) competition (what used to be article 85) or, since it is unilaterally imposed by a cartel, a breach of what used to be Article 86 - abuse of dominant position. Article 85 (as was) might well also affect the horizontal agreements by all manufacturers to apply copy protection and negate consumers' rights.

What I don't know enough about is the US law of competition, which might affect the contract theory advanced above.

However, the US constitutional base for copyright is the making of laws for the advancement of science etc (can't give you the clause of the constitution) and that is why I say the restriction of the private use exemption might be either unconstitutional or require the same procedure as a constitutional amendment. What we need here is a US lawyer schooled in intellectual property and constitutional law.

Back to the EU, as I said, the backup right is created by EU legislation, and so is the crime of interfering with copy protection. Those two pieces of EU legislation are it seems to me in conflict or arguably so, and therefore the issue will become which if either of them is in conflict with the EU treaty. I have a view on that , but it is not fully researched.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:58 PM

"using an old copy of a burner program"

It's probably not even that difficult to get around....

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: treewind
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:35 PM

The point about an analogue audio copy in this context is that loss of quality doesn't matter. The original poster wanted to make an MP3, which will dirty the sound far more than an extra stage of D-A and A-D conversion, and in most other cases the reason for making a copy is to listen in the car, which has a signal to noise ratio of about 20 dB at best. Good old cassette tape is more than good enough for a car, if it weren't for their unfornate habit of chewing up tapes.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:00 AM

Does anyone know how to get .wma files to convert to .wav format?
I have a conversion program, but it won't let me convert them due to some form of copy protection, in spite of getting the .wma version from the CD...? I tried several CDs.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers, Seiri.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:03 AM

You can search and find lots of Tech threads that discuss this here at Mudcat. We've gone through lots of variants on these file converting discussions.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:16 AM

There are many free sound editors and rippers available on the net.
I find that Wave Pad works well converting WAV, MP3, & Real Audio files. Put "Wave Pad " into Google and it will find it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:37 AM

".wma files to convert to .wav"

JetAudio

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:59 PM

Thanks folks. *makes a note* Just thought I'd bring it up because I saw this thread.

Cheers, Seiri.

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 09:29 AM

Seiri, I like a free program known as CDex which converts in both directions from Wave to MP3, WMA and lots of others including my favourite Ogg Vorbis.

Just a few points about quality.

- You'll always lose some quality converting from WAV to a compressed format, but unless you make an A-B comparison the ear is pretty forgiving.

- The best compressed formats are argued to be Ogg Vorbis, WMA and MP3 runs last.

- If you convert from a compressed format back to WAVE you have irretrievably lost the pristine quality of the original WAVE, plus you'll lose a further smidgeon converting back. Hence only do the double conversion if you absolutely have to. If its spoken word it probably won't matter too much, eg a 'talking book', but for music try and re-obtain the original source file if you can.

Royalties are paid for MP3 encryption for professional usage - a good reason for supporting Ogg Vorbis in the future. Ogg Vorbis is superb if you want to conserve space on a CD or Hard Disc, but the number of MP3 players on the market that support this format is still limiting.

WMA would appear to be better quality and as far as I know no-one pays any royalties.

Going back to the start I have no idea how CDex handles copy protected CDs. If I actually owned one I'd give it a try - but I don't.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

"my favourite Ogg Vorbis"

Except nobody else uses it....

Subject: RE: Tech: Copy protected cds
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 06:15 PM

I thought WMA had issues with DMR.