Are we in Show Business?

Subject: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:47 AM

Here we go again skipping blithely through another philisophical mine-field. It's a question which has been at the back of my mind for some time, however.
    A while back I was sitting around drinking coffee and talking shop with a few other performers. No doubt you've been in one of those coversations in some coffehouse or bar. You gossip a bit. You catch up a bit with people you perhaps haven't seen for a while. You gab a bit about politics, food, music, pop culture, politics, women, men, politics, movies, television, and, if there's still time, politics. Eventually the converstion moves to the "horror story" phase. Each of you starts telling about the worst club or festival you ever worked.
    On this particular occasion on of us came up with an especially interesting (in the Chinese Curse sense of that word) story (which I will not detail here) about a sries of mishaps at a festival which had us all laughing and wincing, alternately. The whole thing was caused by a string of miscommunications and misdirections ( the primary elements of high comedy). None of of it was anybody's fault, as such. It all happened because nobody seemed to be paying complete attention to anybody else.
       He concluded the story by shrugging and saying, "Well, that's show biz."
       In response one fellow jumped upfrom the table and yelled haughtily, "Folksingers are NOT in show biz!" and then left.

    It's not the first time that I've heard that said. That sentiment has been bouncing around for a long time. What do you think?
Is someone who sing for money in show buisness or are folkies somehow "above" that?

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:36 AM

It's show business by any other name - however you like it .
It's about charging money for people to hear your performance , most would like to be paid double what they presently charge in order to make their lives a little more comfortable.
Most would jump at the chance to appear on radio and T.V. and raise their profile and become more well-known.
How many would like the career path of Billy Connolly , Barbara Dickson, Mike Harding,the Dubliners etc - the folk club is a spring- board for all of that.
Stephen ,if one pays ones bills from performance - it's showbiz , and not really a thing to be embarrassed about, the only embarrassment is denying it's show biz.

Cheers,
Betsy

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:01 AM

You gets paid, its show business.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:26 AM

As an outsider, I have to agree. It's show business if you perform for the public, even for free.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST,i go, u go, ego
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:34 AM

paid or not

its all show off business

otherwise we'd all be content to sit quietly in a corner
not bothering anybody elses ears

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:39 AM

No one will ever convince me that when any of the earlier members of the Copper family were singing for free beer in the pub in Rottingdean
they were NOT being entertainers !

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: Ernest
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:48 AM

Showbiz covers everything from Shakespeare to soap operas, from opera (in the musical sense of the word) to mass-produced "artists" in current pop music. The word itself is as meaningless as anything. Defining "Showbiz" is just as controversial as defyning folk music (as we all know)
Regards
Ernest
P.S.: The episode Stephen L. Rich told above is not very good showmanship.... ;0)

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 10:07 AM

I can only say what it felt like for me. The gigs from busking to television jobs all felt like doing a show to me. The only real difference was that in my case, although the busking was usually harder, it was also usually more interesting (and certainly better paid) than the supposedly glorified world of TV.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 12:39 PM

Of course it's show business. It's just not a very successful branch of show business.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 01:26 PM

When I invite friends to my home and we play music together, it is not show business.

When I stand on stage and ask others to listen to me, it is show business, whether I'm paid or not.

When a person yells something haughtily and then rushes off, that is a dirty emotional trick called "hit and run."

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 01:43 PM

And there's NO business like it.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:19 PM

It's definately show biz!

Too many navel gazing folkies who think that their songs are interesting just don't realize it.

Personally, I love entertaining.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:33 PM

we know Martin! we know!

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:45 PM

So does Ethel Merman

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:54 PM

Don't know about ya'll but I sure am.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:36 PM

Get away from politics and I can actually agree with Gibson.

Too many folkies simply do not understand the difference between a song circle and a staged show.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 07:07 PM

We all learned our words and our chops to get attention in some way or another - it indeed is show business, or for a lot of us "slow" business.

I sometimes wonder though if it's quite so much that when you're playing for a contra dance, or a wedding, or a funeral ?

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Buisness?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 07:53 PM

"The episode Stephen L. Rich told above is not very good showmanship"

except in the sense that it is "Upmanship"

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:41 AM

Great !!!!!!! I don't think I've ever read a thread where so many of us were in agreement.
Show biz it is then !

Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:37 AM

It's not show business to the guy who said "Folksingers are NOT in show biz!" and walked off. Who are we to tell what it is or not. It is for me, it's not for him.

Spot

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:16 PM

Spot, the guy who walked off is also a professional performer. That, by definition, means that he's in show buisness whether he likes it or not. You can call a hippopotamus a butterfly. That does not change the nature of the hippopotamus.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:31 PM

Yes.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:37 PM

When I invite friends to my home and we play music together, it is not show business

sorry - I'd have to disagree - anytime there is an audience and a performer it's show business.   And even if everyone there is performing (playing music) together - hopefully you're listening to and enjoying each other's performance so there is an audience.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:57 PM

MMario, I must take issue with your statement.

You're in show business (even if you don't get paid) if your performance has something to do with charging money for goods and/or services in the hope of making a profit. When I invite friends to my home for any purpose, no money changes hands and I am not seeking a profit of any kind. Therefore, their performances -- however polished and complex -- are not show business.

However, if I play my mandolin in a session at a pub, I'm engaged in show business because the owners of the pub permit the session to take place only because it attracts punters who either enjoy diddly music for itself, or like to bask in the quaintness of impromptu diddly music while they drink their beer.

If the same session moves to non-commercial space in the community centre around the corner, its show business element disappears. (Of course, so do most of the better players, who come not only for the experience of group playing but also for the thrill one gets from playing for an audience.)

So my answer to the original question is -- Sometimes.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:59 PM

no - I don't see it being about money. Using that definition a free charity performance would not be show business.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 03:04 PM

The free charity performance is still about money. You do it to bring in a paying audience whose entry fees go to the charity.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 03:09 PM

no - there are actually charity performances where the audience doesn't pay and the performers donate their services. Or don't those occur in Canada?

I still maintain it's showbiz any time there is a performer and an audience.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,oooh look at me !!!
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:07 PM

poncing around at home..
narcicisticly posing in front of a mirror,
imagining the adulation of an audience
and highest respect and envy from your peers..


whats that if it aint show biz !

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: jeffp
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:09 PM

I play at the local cancer center when my wife goes in for treatments. I don't charge and they don't pay. I still consider it a show.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:21 PM

*grin* "business" is about money. "show business" is about audience and performer. the BUSINESS of show business is about money (or lack thereof)

medicine is about sickness and curing sickness - The "business of medicine" is about money.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:33 PM

jeffp: Yes, you give a show (and a rattling good one, I'm sure), but you're not in show *business* at the cancer centre because you don't charge and they don't pay.

MMario: What does a charity get out of a performance that doesn't produce any return? Are you sure they don't put out a basket, pass a hat, or even collect names and addresses for future solicitation? Even if you're entertaining the charity's workers, you're still rendering a service that ultimately contributes to the charity's bottom line by giving the worker bees a good time so they maintain the effort.

*****

My grandmother the pianist had problems over precisely this issue in 1947, when the Musicians' Union local in Ottawa wanted her to stop playing for free at veterans' hospitals. The union's position was that the Department of Veterans' Affairs could darned well pay for entertainment for hospitalized veterans just as the Department of National Defence paid for entertainment for the troops. Both sides of this dispute had good arguments, but as veterans were discharged to civilian hospitals (many of which were charitable institutions) the union got tired of looking like the bad guy and gave in and rewrote its rules. Grandma never took back her union card, however, and never forgave the union although she was a charter member.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 05:43 PM

Might as well call it prostitution - after all, we get f*****d

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 06:09 PM

I am a nonperformer. However I would say that any activity like performing that requires you to be "on" is show business. I have seen many performers- and they all seem to go into a mode while performing that is distinct from their persona five minutes earlier.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Grab
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:48 PM

Stephen, thank you for the best line I've heard in a long time! :-)

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 09:10 PM

I have a feeling this thread is none of my business %^). However, I think that the "we" in the title is presumptuous. I, at any rate, am not in show business. The Mudcat, IMO, is not a trade organization. It is also for people who just like songs.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Perhaps someday I shall have the pleasure of seeing one of my epigrams attributed to Mark Twain or Dorothy Parker. :||

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Uke
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 09:24 PM

Isn't "performing" or "putting on a performance" a different thing from "show business"?

When you get up (or sit down or whatever) to perform you step into a certain frame. This even happens telling a joke or an anecdote in casual conversation.

To me, "show business" = performance + Commerce. 'Folk music' continues to be a huge commercial genre, but traditional folk music or informal 'folk club' music has nothing like the same degree of commerciality, though it of course involves 'performance'. So I don't think it's all showbiz.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 03:27 AM

While I can agree that playing a benefit of any kind is show buisness (money is still changing hands), I balk at the idea that a song circle come under the same umbrella. The "show" is certainly there, but the "buisness" aspect is entirely absent. keep in mind that the pr\hrase "show buisness" is two words with two different meanings which, when used together, represent a third concept.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,martin Gibson
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM

When you are "booked" even to play for free in front of an audience, you are a show business performer, no matter how navel contemplating and boring you are.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Charmion
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:00 PM

Uke has caught the concept, in my opinion. Performing is one thing, business quite another. All musical events involve performance(s), but only some involve business. Not many of those involving business are in the folk or traditional genre!

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 03:11 PM

Yes, we are!! That said, it's also true that my participation in "show biz" was always as minimal as I could manage to make it---and I loved the "show"---the music. My job, as I saw it, was to RESIST the aspects of S.B. that I found abhorent. I hated the business aspects of what I did. As a result, the monetary rewards were less than what others accrued -- but the musical, aesthetic and social rewards were maximized for me from my point of view. As Bill Smith, Chicago king of the beatniks used to say, "We were very satisfied with the cheap seats at the concerts--and we got to hear all the music anyway."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 03:57 PM

The usual options:

"I AM in show biz, but YOU are a wannabe."

"Of course I am not in show biz (bring the scholarly purist I am); but you ARE."

~S~

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Uke
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:13 PM

Perhaps this question could be re-interpreted like this...

Does it have to be money that is exchanged in showbiz? Why not admiration, social status, reputation... all those intangible, but real, items of value. So even in a non-commercial setting or everyday life one could still be "performing" for some sort of brownie points.

I still tend to think this stretches the term showbiz beyond being meaningful though. It's fine to make an analogy or comparision, that informal singing could be "like showbiz", but I tend to think you have to "be in the business" to qualify as a real "showbiz performer".

And isn't "showbiz" a bit antiquated anyway - like Barnham and Bailey Circus era stuff?

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:07 PM

Why do you feel the need to perform albeit for no fee - at various venues and for various causes . Simply the need to put on a SHOW for financial / fund raising or other benefit for others.
if you getpaid - it's not much different.
The "business" bit has been added by the more "glamorous" side of music making.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:09 PM

I feel that "showbiz" somehow connotes a dishonesty that hope is not part of the folk movement.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:12 PM

There's no business like show business
Like no business I know

Everything about it is appealing
Everything the traffic will allow
Nowhere could you get that happy feeling
When you are stealing
That extra bow

There's no people like show people
They smile when they are low

Yesterday they told you you would not go far
That night you open and there you are
Next day on your dressing room they've hung a star
Let's go on with the show

The cowboys, the wrestlers, the tumblers, the clowns
The roustabouts that move the show at dawn
The music, the spotlight, the people, the towns
Your baggage with the labels pasted on
The sawdust and the horses and the smell
The towel you've taken from the last hotel

There's no business like show business
Like no business I know

You get word before the show has started
That your favorite uncle died at dawn
Top of that, your ma and pa have parted
You're broken-hearted
But you go on

There's no people like show people
They don't run out of dough

Angels come from everywhere with lots of jack
And when you lose it there's no attack
Where could you get money that you don't give back?
Let's go on with the show

The costumes, the scenery, the make-up, the props
The audience that lifts you when you're down
The headaches, the heartaches, the backaches, the flops
The sheriff who escorts you out of town
The op'ning when your heart beats like a drum
The closing when the customers won't come

There's no business like show business
Like no business I know

Everything about it is appealing
Everything the traffic will allow
Nowhere could you get that happy feeling
When you are stealing
That extra bow

There's no people like show people
They smile when they are low

Even with a turkey that you know will fold
You may be stranded out in the cold
Still you wouldn't 'change for a sack of gold
Let's go on with the show
Let's go on with the show

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:21 PM

Now, that's how to write a lyric. Every line a picture.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:31 PM

OK...It's show business. I surrender :-)

Spot the Dog

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 09:22 PM

it ain't me babe- NO_NO_NO!

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 09:25 PM

Yes, we're in show business.

William Shakespeare - All the world's a stage (from As You Like It 2/7)

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 12:21 AM

"All the world's a stage
and everybody's a critic."
Sam Shakespeare 1962

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Uke
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:37 AM

Thanks Peace - it's a cracker speech that one...

Now can anyone be challenged to come up with a folk club parody? Here's a start

All the world's a folk club,
And all the men and women merely a singing circle,
They have their banjos and their autoharps,
... ETC.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:55 AM

There is an excellent book on drama, called "The Empty Space", by Peter Brook. The essential thrust of the book is that any space, which is animated by a performer, is a potential stage. That is what busking is about really. I think that is how all show business started. The word "showbiz" does have some unpleasant connotations though, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 08:17 PM

Charmion said it for me. 'Business' is about money.
I've always maintained that 'professional folksinger' is an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:39 PM

Resist !

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:19 PM

Gurney - 'professional folksinger' an oxymoron? Does this mean that all the old musicians who played for beer and a few quid at country dances weren't "of the folk"?

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 12:39 AM

It al depends on two things.


1 - The type of gig

2 - The type of audience


If you are performing in a club, frequented by folkies then it can be termed a folk session, hootenany or whatever - BUT -
if you are in a pub/club where oly a portion of the audience are there for the music and the songs,and the remainder are there for drinks, conversation, laughs or whatever then it is show business.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:34 AM

Shepherdlass, 'Professional' means that you make your living doing it. 'Semi-Professional' is the term for the artists you mention.

Oooooh, I get SO pedantic, sometimes.
Maybe the language is changing too fast for me.
I can remember when you could say exactly what you meant, because everyone spoke the same language. Spelled it differently, maybe.
I blame ShowBiz for the changes.


I've taken my pills (Pils?) and I feel better now.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:36 AM

yeh ...who knows?

If only it were a bit more profitable as a business....

I always think Hyman Roth in The Godfather2 had it about right when lamenting the fact that someone shot Moe Green in the eye, "Dis is da business we're engaged in....!"

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 07:45 AM

Gurney, I've been a pro in the folk world all my working life. I'm not an oxymoron!

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:00 PM

some morons are oxier than others, I will admit.

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 10:35 PM

For a delightful view of "show biz" and outwitting the tax collector look to Chilliwack, British Columbia. Each September there is a blue-grass orchestra.

Under Canadian law, each band (entering from the USA) is required to pay $450CD....however, orchestra's are tax free....an orchestra is defined as 14 members or more. The orchestra plays one gig a year. A mandolin player, Hudson, organizes the event. The multiple blue-grass groups convine, perform 15 minutes of awful stuff, all together, as an orchestra...and move on to a grand convocation of individual groups. Large groups travelling under an IMM60 don't have to pay the work permit fee, and can enter singly or in sub-groups, provided that each clumpof group members is travelling with a copy of the completed form AND theperformance contract(s) that match it.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Personally, the movies, flicks, celuloide are "show biz."

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 10:51 PM

Hey, fir anyone who thinks that playin' music infront of an audience ain't show business, better keep yer day job...

Of course it's show business and I, fior one, take it danged serious... I don't care who I'm playin' before... I'm prepared... I have a set list... I have my guitars all in different tunings... I go over everything before I go on stage...

Before hand, I get myself into what I consider to be the garb of a North Mississippi bluesman from, ohhhhhh 'round maybe late 40's and I get on stage and talk 'bout the music Iz gettin' ready to play...''Hey, don't matter if everyone in the room is a musican, I'z gonna go thru the show part of it...

Then it's a whole bunch of foot-stomp bluues and stiries and, and...

Heck, more to playin' music than playin' music....

Fir sure...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Are we in Show Business?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 11:42 PM

Bobert - you appear more than little "insecure" in your clear-cut description of performance anxiety.

Check your blood-pressure, and try something else for awhile....like lawn mowing.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle