Where can I buy leeches & medical songs

Subject: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 02:43 PM

Turns out I have a (likely non-critical or progressive but permanent) disease. The standard treatment is blood-letting. Well there are agravating and expensive ways that's done but I'm wondering where I might tale the alternative (and equally effective) methods of cupping or leeching. I once saw a nice little spring-loaded gadget that flashed nine or so razor blades narrowly through the skin. I think it was followed by cupping but I'm not sure.

If you ever read Jail Keys Made Here you saw one sign, "Yes we have leeches." I remember the drug store it was in the window of in North Beach, San Francisco. All the photys in the book were from S.F. I kinda doubt the store's still there, though.

Any idea where I might get something like that machine or some leeches in Florida? I haven't Googled yet.

This got me to thinking about disease in folksong. It's a topic that's been visited in several threads (and Mr Offer may wish to combine, I don't know.)

I made a bit of a chart for our amusement. Most of it from me head & a quich DigTrad search & much from a whizz through the threads I found (sorry not to attribute the comments). Likely there's many more.


Medical Conditions as Discussed in Folksong

Amputaion (traumatic)
        Admiral Benbow, Kerry Recruit (wound is dressed)
        And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda
Cold (the disease)
        John Brown's baby had a cold upon his chest, (camphorated oil)
Dust Pneumonia
        Dust Pneumonia Blues [Woody Guthrie]
Fever (unspecified)
        Unfortunate Miss Bailey (bed rest)
Food Poisoning
        Found a Peanut (either cure by surgical extraction or death)
Hematocolpos (tentative diagnosis)
        She was a Rum One (Perforation of the hymen)
Spanish Flu
        Influenza (no effective available treatment)
Insanity
        Mad Tom of Bedlam (Incarceration)
        Bold Fisherman (no treatment mentioned)
        Riley's Courtship (Incarceration)
        Fair William and Lady Maisry –[Child 70] (no treatment mentioned)
Jake Leg paralysis [from drinking Jamacian ginger extract]
       Jake Bottle Blues (Lemuel Turner, 1928), Jake Walk Blues (Allen Brothers, 1930), Jake Leg Wobble (Ray Brothers,
       1930), Jake Leg Blues (Byrd Moore, 1930), Got The Jake Leg Too (Ray Brothers, 1930), Jake Leg Rag (Narmour
       and Smith, 1930), Alcohol and Jake Blues (Tommy Johnson, 1930), Jake Liquor Blues (Ishman Bracey,
       1930), Jake Leg Blues (Mississippi Sheiks, 1930), Jake Leg Blues (Daddy Stovepipe and Mississippi Sarah,
       1930), Jake Walk Papa (Asa Martin, 1933), Jake Leg Blues (Willie Lofton, 1934) [from North Carolina Moonshine]
Plague
        Bubonic:
                Bessy Bell and Mary Gray [Child 201](treatment is isolation. They died.)
        Unspecified:
                The Flying Cloud (no treatment – death results)
                The Revel [Bartholomew Dowling – "We meet 'neath the sounding rafter"]
Poisoning
        Lord Randal (eels and eels' broth)
Pregnancy/Birth – too common to list
        My God How The Money Rolls In (Abortion)
        Tamlin (Abortion – Janet picks abortifacient plants)
PTSD
        And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda
Scarlet Fever
        The Shanty Boy on the Big Eau Clair (The doctors tried, but all in vain)
Sickly
        Cod Liver Ile (Dr Dearjohn's Cod Liver Oil)
Smallpox
        Bound Down For Newfoundland (untreated – results in death)
Tuberculosis
        TB Blues [Jimmie Rodgers]
        TB Blues [as blues – different song from above (?)]
        TB is Whipping Me [Ernest Tubb]
Venereal disease - too common to list but a few:
        All
                Coming Down with Old VD [by Mark Cohen] (no specific treatment)
        Gonorrhea (or "the Pox")
                Fireship (no treatment offered)
                Liverpool Judies (no treatment mentioned)
        Syphilis
                The Unfortunate Rake and all its relatives (pills of white mercury)
                British Grenadier

Treatments

Abortion
        Tamlin, (Janet picks abortifacient plants to cure Pregnancy)
        My God How The Money Rolls In
                My grandpa makes cheap prophylactics
                He punches their heads with a pin,
                My grandma does quickie abortions
                Oh Lord how the money rolls in.
Bed rest
        Unfortunate Miss Bailey (Unspecified fever)
Camphorated oil
        John Brown's baby had a cold upon his chest (a cold)
Dressing the wound
        Amputaion–
                Admiral Benbow, Kerry Recruit
Eggs and marrowbone
        Eggs and Marrowbone (to cause blindness – not intended to be effective)
Incarceration
        Mad Tom of Bedlam (insanity)
        Riley's Courtship (insanity)
No treatment:
        Remissing
                Fireship, eg (Gonorrhea)
        Death
                Bound Down for Newfoundland (Smallpox)
        Not mentioned
                Fair William and Lady Maisry –[Child 70] (Insanity)
                Bold Fisherman (Insanity)
Panaceas:
        Cod Liver Oil (especially, Dr Dearjohn's)
                Cod Liver Ile
        Lydia Pinkham Vegetable (later, 'Herbal') Compound ("for nutritional support
                         for women during all stages of life." It's still available)
                Ballad of Lydia Pinkham
        Langolee (especially for "female disorders of every degree")
                Langolee
Perforation of the hymen
        She was a Rum One – (Hematocolpos - tentative diagnosis)
Pills of white mercury
        The Unfortunate Rake (Syphilis)
Poison:
        Eels and eels' broth
                Lord Randal (for his True Love to poison him)

Also see:
Songs About Disease
Folk songs appropriate for medical students
Looking for song lyrics about health

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 02:55 PM

Abby-

Don't know where you can get your leeches, other than at your local loan office, but they are still in use in the medical profession and should really not be a problem to obtain. I don't know if a prescription is required.

I note that you didn't list any songs related to mal de mer. "Dramamine" would remedy that situation and the song was composed by Talitha Mackenzie, BMI (© Talitha Music Publishing, 1980. My group Roll & Go got her permission to record it on our OUTWARD BOUND CD. It's always a favorite on our cruise gigs.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 05:06 PM

Can't stand leeches. The bastards will crawl out of the fishtank you are keeping them in and make a break for freedom out through the door.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 05:15 PM

search for @medicine and @doctor

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 05:56 PM

Based on personal experience, I think I'd go to an attorney's office rather than to most MDs to find genuine voraciously hungry leeches ... (that's a joke, I think. (?))

The most recent articles I've seen on medical use of leeches implied that for medical use they can be ordered from one or two labs in the US, but I don't have a record of any lab addresses. Those from the labs may be a bit expensive, as I believe one doctor who was claiming good results with them indicated about $35 to $50 (US) per leech at his practice.

John

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:08 PM

Check your local bait shop...they are often used for fish bait. Or, a pet store.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

If you use leeches from a bait shop, there is no guarantee that you may obtain ones that will not give you an infrection of some sort.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:21 PM

Other medical songs which might be included:

Lilian who was a beauty and died of TB

The sow who got the measles and died in the spring

Old Blue who apparently died of old age

Go to Work on Monday One More Time by Si Kahn which features brown lung disease from Textile mill

Dr. Dogbody's Leg by Charlie Ipcar which describes the many and varied ways that this famous royal naval surgeon lost his larboard leg

Dr. Freud who we wish had been differently employed

Root Canal Blues

Can't think of a single song about acne

Nor any songs about hernias

There was an old lady who swallowed a fly but she never consulted a doctor

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:41 PM

A quick look for current status of leeches in US medical practice finds that a new FDA approval was granted in 2004 for certain fairly specific uses. The approved uses are associated with removal of rather small amounts of blood, with the principal effect being the anticoagulant secretions from the leech. Where a surgery cannot connect sufficient peripheral small veins, the leech provides minor help preventing local clotting, but it's the anticoagulant effect of the leeching that helps re-establish circulation that is the main effect intended.

The anticoagulant apparently is itself produced by symbiotic gut bacteria in the leech. This bacteria is normally handled by healthy persons, but can infect persons locally where circulation is impaired or more generally in persons with impaired immune response. An incidence of infection in cases where leeching is currently accepted of as much as 20% of cases is cited. - Not particularly good odds for a procedure performed other than under the direct care of someone who can get you the proper antibiotics if needed.

One report sites a source at Leeches USA. Their site does appear to have a fair bit of information, and might be worth a visit for information, even if the US location isn't appropriate as a supplier.

It appears they also sell medical maggots, should you have a future need for some.

Info at their site indicates that one leech typically draws about 5 ml of blood, but that if you keep the bite wound(s) open a half dozen might result in a 300 ml extration by oozing from the bites for 48 hours. The removal required for a typical treatment for the few conditions where phlebotomy is used for the removal of blood in any quantity suggests that you'd need 8 or 10 leeches per treatment, at $7 to $10 each at the price range quoted by this supplier. Since a leech typically won't feed again for 6 months once full, keeping them for re-use probably isn't practical, and a full leech is a biohazard and should be incinerated anyway (probably).

If the particular condition doesn't preclude it, perhaps a periodic blood donation would be more efficient. They might even pay you...(?). Of course, you'll need to verify with your practicioner that your condition wouldn't cause problems for any recipient of your donation.

Nothing here is offered as medical advice, of course. It's all just junk found on the web.

John

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM

No Transylvanian mudcatters?

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Gorgeous Gary
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM

There's always the song about the Great Pandemic of 1918, as seen recently here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:03 PM

How about a song about The Colorectal Surgeon to cheer you up a bit.

Do they use leeches for haemorrhoids?

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:39 PM

Charley: Very good list. Anything for rickets?


John i K: I'm knocked out. Great info. The bit of anti-coagulent would be handy. I didn't realize the volume of blood removed per leech per year would be so low. No immune system problems but I see some caution would be reasonable.

The suggestion to donate is good & the most appealing. Doctor actually preferred that but for really dumb Catch-22 reasons it's illegal in Florida.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:26 PM

Abby--

John's information was correct; I was about to tell you the same thing. For what you need, leeches are not the way to go. There aren't too many disorders for which periodic bleeding is a treatment; the only one I know of is hemochromatosis, and I think there might be a very rare form of leukemia that affects the red blood cells. But it's been a very long time since medical school, and I don't keep up with the adult medicine literature.

I don't understand what's illegal about donating blood. When I gave blood at the Red Cross yesterday, the person working there mentioned that they have people with hemochromatosis who come in regularly to be bled...they just request that their blood not be given to patients. (In Hawaii, they leave you alone for a minute while you put one of two bar-coded stickers on the form, one that tells them it's OK to use your blood and the other that tells them it isn't. The technicians can't tell from looking at the sticker which one you've picked.)

Of course, if your hematocrit is too high, they would probably disqualify you as a donor right up front. But I'd talk to somebody in charge at the Red Cross to see if you can work something out. Maybe they could use you to help the technicians practice...nah, never mind.

Feel free to PM me if you have more questions. If I can't answer them, I can direct them to a hematologist.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: The Walrus
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:41 PM

Disease in song:
Cholera - "Cholera Camp" (Kipling/Bellamy)
No cure specified, escape attempted
("...But it runs as fast as troop trains an' we cannot get away...")
Fatal (10 deaths a day).

W

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: bobad
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:49 PM

I recently heard a song on the radio which had the verse:

Don't need no narcotics
No antibiotics
I got a virus
Called the blues

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 11:44 PM

Mark Cohen -

Two conditions for which "bleeding" was suggested were "Haemochromatosis" or "Polycythemia," both of which are essentially genetic traits (as I read them). Wikipedia has fairly complete descriptions of both, and they popped up in the search.

There are a couple of others that are somewhat common - more in the unusual category than actually rare - and several pretty rare ones, I believe. That is that I think I recall seeing some the last time I did a front-to-back reading of a new Merck. Couldn't quote names on the others without heavy duty research - as in a reread, perhaps.

Since no one asked for a diagnosis I didn't want to try to guess - or offer for public discussion - what the particular condition might be, and the treatments are pretty much the same for the ones I found. For conditions mentioned, amounts "comparable to a blood donation" were mentioned.

As we've both commented, the amounts of blood that would be reasonably extracted by leeches would be unlikely to have a significant effect on whole-body condition, unless one used a lot of leeches and/or kept to ooze going for a couple of days after they dropped off. (Messy?)

The "cupping" method was also asked about. It doesn't show up on what I'd consider mainstream sites except in reference to "ancient methods" (in the quick search), althought one "exotic" source suggests that using suction to increase or sustain bleeding can result in scarring (and risk of infection) much more extensive than would result from just making another clean cut. Whether one wishes to accept medical opinion from a "Vampirism cult" web site I'll leave up to them. Some of the other info at that particular site was rather "adolescent."

Some vampire bats are fairly large, and likely would take more reasonable quantities; but I suspect it's rather difficult to train them to bite where you want them to. (They reportedly are rather shy.) Some reports claim they can cause anemia in cattle, usually selecting one or two from a herd and coming back repeatedly, so maybe they could be trained ... ??. The most common v-bats are not a whole lot bigger than a fat leech.

John

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 02:49 AM

"Cholera Camp" Good.

I just thought of:

Excessive labo(u)r.
        Death of Queen Jane (King refuses to allow Caesarean. She dies)

TB (Consumption)
        McAlpines Crew

Chest hair deficiency
        Lavender Cowbow (Herpacide and many colored hair tonics)

Funny how much one can pick up. Apparently cupping is usually used just to bring blood to the surface of the "affected area" of the skin - generally an accupuncture point. When it's used with punctured skin, it (so far as I've read) is only intended to extract a few drops so that's out too. Oh, well.

I wasn't going to go this far into it (what, to the general readership is interesting & what is yucky - or worse?) Hmmm.

Well, (and all the tests are no way in yet. He's only tested the first gallon he drew & the other 3 gallons had to get sent out.) Dr Hemotology thought it was Haemochromatosis until I pointed out he'd read the hematocrit wrong. I didn't know the two were related - just that there was a discrepancy in the reading. And my family isn't from the Ukraine. So it's Polycythemia. Not very genetic in my case - no family history at all & just suddenly appeared last month. It can lead to leukemia which is worst case but very unlikely. Here's the fun part. (you really want to read this?) Unrelatedly, I was hospitalized just for last weekend with sudden bleeding from parts best not mentioned. Naturally, since I was gushing blood for unknown reasons, the staff vampires rushed in to draw another gallon every hour on the hour to test & see why. Luckily it stopped on its own & I'm fine. Just a tad tired still.

The disturbing part to them was that every time a Dr appeared he'd sigh & shake his head sadly & announce that my red cell, etc counts were still normal (because of the Polycythemia) So he'd order more blood tested to see if he could change that fact.

The illegal part is this... In my case, "drawing off blood" as youse have said, is the standard treatment. It's a State-recognized therapeutic procedure. The blood bank is not allowed to perform therapeutic procedures. So, instead of having it done for free and getting paid (at least a glass of orange juice) and someone getting the benefit of above-average rich blood...I have to go to a hospital and pay to have a tech (there are no actual trained phlebotomists under age 55 in Central Florida) and they discard it. One doc suggested I should just go to the blood bank & lie about my history.

Vampire bats are shy? Who'd have thought? Well, you're ahead of me on that one. Hadn't considered them yet. And I'm quite sure that getting 10,000 mosquitos would be painful & disease-ridden.

I suppose I could commit suicide every month or so. (No notion as yet how much or even to a certainty, If) blood must be let. That's not very attractive either.

Maybe hypnosis - "You have less blood. You have less blood."

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 01:10 AM

Don't ask the blood bank, ask the Red Cross. Their hands may be tied (so to speak), but it's worth a try. Unless the blood bank in your area is the Red Cross...some hospitals have their own blood bank, in others the Red Cross is the source of blood. (Well, people are the source of blood, but you know what I mean.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:04 PM

I dunno. Wouldn't surprise me if the Red Cross were the source. Grow their own in a lab. Or secretly get it from pigs or cats.

Now it looks like it may all be nonsense. Bloodwork comes back today that the whole series of events is likely caused by overmedication. This is no surprise and relieving, I guess. Especially since leeches aren't practical, anyway. The hematologist says that medical leeches are available in this area, though. He wasn't aware of the low capacity/animal. Didn't know exactly how they were applied. I got a clear impression he had no intention of finding out, either.

Oh, well. Back to disease-in-folksong.

Permanent (and terminal) pregnancy
       Willie's Lady [Child 6] (remove "binding" charms & magic)
Love-sickness
       The Brown Girl [Child 295](The 'brown, brown girl's' pardon but she's content that he dies and refuses to forgive)
       Bonny Barbara Allen [Child 84](send for Barb. It's too late, though)

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 07:15 PM

If you want leeches just go paddling in Wheeler Lake Alabama.

And have you tried "Auntie Maggie's Home Made Remedy"?

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 09:43 PM

Song: Grandma's Lye Soap
Ailment(s): "Good for everything in the home!"

"And the secret was in the scrubbing,
It wouldn't suds, and couldn't foam."

"Then let us sing right out of grandma's, of grandma's lye soap.
Sing right out. All over the place.
O! Clap your hands!"

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:04 AM

Very glad things are OK, Abby. I can't quite figure out what all happened, but I'm happy it was a false alarm.

Leeches are most often used these days by plastic and vascular surgeons, especially for reconstructive or reattachment surgery. It's not the blood loss that's the goal, but the local anti-clotting effect. Despite the old joke about Giuseppe the tailor, the reason it was so difficult to reattach a finger or an arm that was accidentally severed was that, no matter how good the surgeon was, all those tiny blood vessels would clot off and prevent the re-establishment of the circulation. Put a few leeches on the area, though, and their anticoagulant keeps those little guys open and lets the blood flow through, without causing the problems of systemic anticoagulant medications. Not pretty, but it works.

There, aren't you glad you know that?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:25 AM

Mr. Sale

A dear friend (the one that 20 years ago opened the door to my economic riches and its connected curses) has a "peculiar affliction" with excessive iron in his blood.

For him the solution is to donate blood to the local Red Cross every six weeks...and to a avoid using iron utensils.

I have frequently found leaches voluntarily attached to my legs while harvesting the roots of "cat-tails" (like asparagus in flavor)in Northern Lakes of Maine. When harvesting "cat-tails" keep the bottoms of your pants tucked into the tops of your socks and boots.

Sincerly,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: GUEST,hpmoritz
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 12:22 AM

a good VD song is AC/DC's "she's got the jack." The jack refers to syphylis I believe. Also known as jack-in-the-box.
When I was in 8th grade, I found a leech on the sidewalk and I took it to my science teacher to find out what it was because it didn't look like a normal leech. It, apparently, was a rare variety. My teacher got so excited that I thought he was going to make sweet love to the leech down by the fire.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

We have plenty of leeches here in the UK. Most of them live around Whitehall in London.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:58 AM

There is always somebody selling live leeches outside the Egyptian Market in Istanbul. I'll be there in a couple of weeks. I very much doubt if they do mail order, though, and I imagine carrying a jarful in your luggage would get you a *very* long chat with airport security.

They used to be sold the same way in Edinburgh 200 years ago. There was even a special street cry for them (not notated at the time, unfortunately).

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

Drowning
    Clementine, and a host of other songs


Cure-alls
    (They call it) That good old mountain dew
      Lily the Pink
      Jug of punch

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Adrianel
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:41 PM

When I worked at Bart's Hospital in the 1970s, there was a semi-retired physician of the old school who would occasionally prescribe leeches. The hospital pharmacist (firmly based in the 20th century) refused to stock them, but would call a semi-retired pharmacist at another London hospital who did stock them to send some over.
My understanding of the current use of leeches is that because they only remove a small amount of blood, they are very useful for localized removal, mainly in "cosmetic" surgery, to minimize scarring.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: KateG
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:17 PM

When my sister-in-law the RN worked in a Miami hospital 10-12 years ago, one of her jobs was supervising the care of the hospital's supply of leeches. That was when I first learned that they had a continuing medical use - I'd thought they'd gone back to the swamps decades ago.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:26 AM

I think Gordon Brown keeps a tank full of them as pets.

Subject: RE: Where can I buy leeches & medical songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM

It shouldn't be that hard to learn to bleed yourself, should it? It's a lot less needle sticking than diabetics or junkies do. If you need to lose, say, a pint a month, that's a hell of a lot of leeches.

There was once an actual genre of bloodletting songs. I heard this at a conference on mediaeval medicine: in mediaeval Islamic medicine regular bloodletting was considered beneficial, so long as it was done at the astrologically appropriate time. Mostly it was the elite who had it done. But it was never entirely safe. So there was a category of songs or poems written to rulers to wish them a successful bloodletting. Since each mode was associated with particular astrological signs, physiological types and kinds of disease, it's a good bet they had a lutenist playing the right kind of music while the procedure was going on.