Tech: Home Network Set-up

Subject: Tech: Home Network Set-up - SOHO settings
From: aussiebloke
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:00 PM

G'day all

I have finally upgraded from a steam-driven connection and entered the Brave New World of ISDN - Integrated Services Digital Network.

Faster, no drop-outs, no dial-up fee each time. Happy boy.

Ethernet connection between my machine and herselfs machine (both Win XP) allows internet connection sharing, our two separate e-mail configurations are set-up and tested - network settings are ON for file and printer sharing - but therein lies the problemo.

Our computers cannot seem to 'see' each other - we want to be able to 'map across' to each others hard-drives or at the very least exchange files, and use each others printers.

I'm sure the solution is but a tweak of a setting away, but it eludes me, and I throw myself on the collective knowledge of Mudcat techies.

How do I get these two machines to 'see' each other?

Cheers and thanks in advance all...

aussiebloke

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 12:51 AM

A common difficulty is just getting the right "name and address" for the sharing, especially for printers and other peripherals.

If you're using the built in Windows stuff, you do have to create a local network on one of your machines for the machines to see each other. Machines (including your net interface) can't "get inside" each other without some networking protocol setups. I'd suggest doing the setup on your "best" machine - or at least the one you think might be around the longest.

At Start | Settings | Network Connections you should find a "Network Setup Wizard" in any recent Win versions. Creating a "Workgroup" is the simplest, unless you have some other networking software you want to use.

If you have older computers (i.e. using obsolete OS) you want to use on the LAN, the wizard may tell you to make a floppy to use to set up other machines. With most recent Win versions on the other machines you shouldn't need it.

Each machine may have to "join" the network. On each machine, in Win Explorer, right click on "My Computer," select "Properties," and click the "Computer Name" tab. There should be "wizard buttons" there that will be fairly obvious, although different Windows versions vary a bit. Giving each computer a "Name" for use on the LAN is recommended.

On the machine where a folder or program "lives" you have to enable sharing. Default is always NOT SHARED. To share a folder, just right click it in Win Explorer, click properties, and click the Sharing tab. You can share the folder and all subfolders (recommended) or you can share only one level at a time. I'd suggest applying the share to a minimum number of folders with subs included, at least to begin with, since every folder you click and share will appear when another machine looks for the connection to your machine. Too many choices just confuses things.

If you have installed recent security updates, at least on Win2K and WinXP, by default you cannot share your "C:\" (root) folder. You can override that, but it's not recommended. If you use it, share "My Documents" and just put everything there.

To share a printer, on the machine the printer connects to, Start | Settings | Printers and Faxes. Right click on the printer, select Properties, click the Sharing tab. Click to set Share. It is recommended that you give the printer a short distinctive name. A tab there should offer to load drivers that can be used if a machine that doesn't have the driver wants to connect to it.

Each machine that wants to use a printer on the Lan has to install it. If a printer is connected to another computer, you usually have to try to browse for it or call it up as "printername on \\Computername." For some arcane reason, nothing in any Windows Help seems to want to mention that you have to use the "double \" when describing another computer on your network.

If the machine that connects directly to the printer has been set to load drivers for all Win versions, the machine that's installing a shared printer should get everyting it needs from there. In some cases you may need an installation disk to provide a driver that matches the computer OS to the printer on the other computer.

Once things are set up, you can use Windows Explorer, go to \My Network Places\Entire Network\Microsoft Windows Network and you should find your "Group Name" there. Click it and it should show all the computers that are "joined." Click any computer, and it should show all the folders that are shared on that computer.

Since each computer has all the shared printers "installed," when you hit a "Print" it should show you a list of printers you can use.

If you Map a drive that's on a computer that requires password access, the Mapping link will expire frequently, making you log in to the other computer to reconnect to it, so mapping is not too handy on this sort of simple network. Going directly to the shared folders, as described above is simpler. You can creat a shortcut on your machine to a shared folder on another machine, and it should let you connect to the shared folder without repetitive loging - depending on settings, of course.

That's the brief outline - for Windows simple LAN setup. I think(?).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 12:57 AM

Someone should be along soon to tell you there's a better way to do it. There are lots of better ways to do it, mostly with only a bit of extra hardware. The above is the cheap way.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 01:15 AM

Here is a pretty good site that might help you find your problem. It helped us find ours when nobody else could.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: Dave Earl
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 01:54 AM

I had a similar problem and found that the solution lay in the XP Firewall settings.

It is possible to tell the Firewall that it should permit "His" machine to see "Hers".

I had a Win 98 machine networked to a XP machine and gave each a name and having tweeaked the XP Firewall I eventually.

Initially I had the two machines directly connected through a "cross-over" cable but later set up a hub (or router)connected by standard cables.

Hope you get there in the end.

Dave Earl

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 04:25 AM

If you are having problems and there is a firewall, first thing I would do is disable it completely (you can disconnect from the Internet first) to ensure that isn't getting in the way. Put it back when everything else is sorted.

Next step, ensure you have a working TCP/IP connection. Open up a command prompt and ping each computer. Try each by name, to themselves and to each other. If one can't see the other, try pinging by the IP addresses. Note the IP addresses too. They should probably both be in the 192.168.0 range but whatever the range, if they are on completley different sets of numbers, your computers are on different networks and won't find each other.

If that checks out OK, go on to where John in K starts. If not, you have some more basic problems to sort out.

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: aussiebloke
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:08 PM

Thanks for your time and the information - I'm still tweaking away here, firewalls are coming down...

Cheers

aussiebloke

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:39 PM

Firewalls are coming down,
Coming down, coming down,
Firewalls are coming down,
My Fair Lady...

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:43 PM

Build them up with Zone Alarm,
Zone Alarm, Zone Alarm,
Build them up with Zone Alarm,
My Fair Lady...

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM

Port Attack on twentythree,
twentythree, twentythree,
Port Attack on twentythree,
My Fair Lady...

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: aussiebloke
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

I am working a run of five ten-hour nights at present - I'll return to the business of tweaking the home network on my next days off. I have set-up 'shared folders' on each machine - but still cannot 'see' them from the other machine. I'll try to ping each machine using IPCONFIG and take it from there...

Thanks again for the info - and to Foolestroupe for the musical content of the project - anyone else know any computer songs or parodies?

Cheers all

aussiebloke

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 07:14 PM

All computers on your network should have the same 'Group Name' - as far as MS is concerned. The real thing is that it would help if they were in the same IP range, but you will need to check that before attempting pinging them.

Another clever thing is that computers on a network will happily work (after a fashion) with duplicated IP numbers - been there, done that, got the T-shirt!! ;-) but the NETWORK objects strongly to that...


:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: nutty
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 07:37 PM

You might like to look at THIS SITE

There is a section on Networking under 'Communications'

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 09:17 PM

Note from first reply:

You have a physical connection between all your machines because you plugged cables into etherlink ports.

Your Internet connection has been set up so that each of your computers can talk to the internet. That is ONE NETWORK. That network DOES NOT ALLOW THE INDIVIDUAL MACHINES TO TALK TO ONE ANOTHER.

If you're using the built in Windows stuff, you do have to create a local network on one of your machines for the machines to see each other. Machines (including your net interface) can't "get inside" each other without some networking protocol setups. I'd suggest doing the setup on your "best" machine - or at least the one you think might be around the longest.

At Start | Settings | Network Connections you should find a "Network Setup Wizard" in any recent Win versions. Creating a "Workgroup" is the simplest, unless you have some other networking software you want to use.

Physical connection of your machines all on the same etherlink hardware DOES NOT MAKE THEM A NETWORK.

1. Each machine must have a "Name."

2. On at least ONE machine, you must CREATE a network or workgroup, and you must give your "network/workgroup" a NAME.

3. You must tell the machine that knows what the network's name is, what other machines are part of that "network."

4. The network setup wizard will tell you if you need to go to each of the other machines and "join" other machines to the network/workgroup.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:44 AM

Oh well. Looks like I've got my own network and other problems today...

I installed a new wireless cardbus card on my laptop yesterday as I had lost the old one. Things seemed fine until I tried to connect to a MySQL database and got the message that 192.168.0.3 (which must have been the IP address dhcp assigned to the card) was not allowed to connect - reasonable enough in itself but it did prompt me to look at the network settings.

Guess what? According to Windoze now, I have no connections at all. Further invetigation is even worse. Device manager reveals I haven't got a single device of any sort - that's right not even a mouse, graphics card or anything not even a processor even though all these devices are clearly working.

I don't know what went wrong in the installation but I run a mixed system and network here of Windoze and Linux. Of the 2, I can assure you that only Windoze is capable of such feats.

I will sort it out - uninstalling the driver doen't work but Windoze at times is unbelievable.

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 05:48 AM

Is there some sort of conspiracy to stop people setting up networks?
I haven't understood a word of any of this! I also bought a computer magazine, the other day, which promised to show me how to set up a network - I didn't understand a word of that, either! Does anyone know of any instructions in English?

PS

I can usually do most of the things that I want to do on a computer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:57 AM

Jon -

The only thing I've seen remotely resembling what you've described for the installation of your card is a KB article that describes loss of access in mixed nets with both Win2K Server and WinXp. It seems that installing some new software (it said "of specific kind") can change the checksums in your permissions tables on the Win2K server, and cause bunches of stuff to go inaccessible for the WinXP machine(s). I don't think this is what's happended to you, but nothing else seems remotely close. There does seem to be a problem with Windows Server OS (2000 and later) not doing a good job with permissions unless they're on an NTFS formatted drive/partition, but the descriptions were vague (for those of us without a server to look at).

My browsing wasn't a total loss though, as I did find a confirmation that most Internet interfaces use TCP/IP protocol, while the simple forms of Windows (peer-to-peer) communication between machines are assumed to use NetBEUI protocol. Old Win95 and earlier confuse the situation by tossing in "IPX/SPX-Compatible Transport (Nwlink)." Useless (for me) now, but I'll need it someday, I suppose. The possibly useful info is that the two protocols usually use different address ranges (192.xxx.xxx.xxx for the TCP/IP vs 168.... for the NetBEUI).

Guest DB -

Don't try to make it harder than it is.

If your network is to be all Windows machines, and if they're mostly "similar era," Start | Help | click "Index" or "Search," and put "Network" or "Workgroup" in the search box. Read the instructions, and you really shouldn't have any serious problems.

Complications usually come up only when you mix very old machines (Win3.11, Win95) with fairly new ones (Win2000, WinXP, etc.) and/or if you're using a "network box" (router, etc) or have an actual "server OS" in the setup (Win NT Server or Win 2003 Server, for example).

If you have etherlink cards in all machines, plug them together through an etherlink hub (10-BaseT or 10/100-BaseT), and follow the instructions, use the network setup wizards, and you should get a network.

(Of course, I can afford to be optimistic. My network worked when it was Win 3.11WG, and grew from there.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 08:29 AM

JiK

"the two protocols usually use different address ranges (192.xxx.xxx.xxx for the TCP/IP vs 168.... for the NetBEUI)."

Where in Almighty's Name did you find THAT highly useful arcane bit of trivia?

:-)

And I wonder does that mean if you set up your network for one first, then you should never add the other later? Or else you have to ensure that both interfaces are on the same network range? If you decide to start with NetBEUI and later swap to TCP/IP be warned if you used the install wizard?

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:50 PM

Foolestroupe -

You can have as many networks as the machines on your system have the resources to handle.

The first network most people are interested in probably is the network to share an internet connection.

Most internet interface devices, including a dialup modem, will use the TCP/IP protocol, and for this protocol Windows usually will use idents in the 192.168.0.xxx range. I have a "dedicated server" on one printer, to allow it to connect directly to my LAN, and it also uses the 192.168.0.xxx range.

If you use the "Internet Connection Sharing" (ICS) built into all Windows versions since WWG3.11, you connect one machine, via modem or a second etherlink card, to the internet and set that machine only up to use ICS. That machine will get the 192.xxx.xxx.0 address on the TCP/IP network. All other machines are set to "connect via local network" if they are to "share" the connection. The "ICS host" machine will assign a TCP/IP identity to each of the other machines when the net starts.

With ICS, you can have up to 10 machines all sharing the same internet connection.

An individual machine can still use its own modem if there's an available internet interface. You can't have two machines trying to dialup on the same line at the same time, but some "internet boxes" allow more than one machine to connect "independently." If you have any such device, it should have its own instructions.

The second network of interest is the LAN to share information between machines. (It makes no difference which network is set up first.)

If you use a Windows "simple network" with the NetBEUI protocol, devices on that network will use idents in the 168.xxx.xxx.xxx range on that network. I believe the machine on which you "create" the local network usually takes the "0" address, and other machines get an address more or less in sequence during network setup. Info on the exact method of address assignment is vague. Finding what address an individual machine is using on the NetBEUI network is an "exotic exercise." You seldom actually need to know.

You can have up to 10 computers in a "simple network." The simple network is identical (mostly) to what Win98 and earlier called a "workgroup," and is also called a peer-to-peer network since there actually is no "server" to manage the connections.

Using ICS and a simple network, the only hardware you need is an etherlink card/port on each machine, an etherlink hub with enough ports to plug them all into, and of course enough cables to make the connections. If your internet connection is via etherlink, you do need a separate (second) etherlink card in the computer that connects directly to the internet box.

A third network that is common happens if you add a USB hub. The hub allows connection of multiple devices, so it has to be part of a "USB network." The only way you're likely to notice that this network has been added is that WinXP will notifiy you that it wants to install a "bridge" to avoid "looping" in your multiple networks. Some other Win versions may do the same, but WinXP is the only one I've connected a "large USB hub" to.

In principle, you could have additional networks, but each network must have its own protocol and/or "hard assignments" of machine addresses. Manual assignment of machine identities reportedly is possible with the simple/peer network, but is not recommended.

Theoretically you can create more than one "group" using simple networks (I think?), so that different sets of users can connect to specific other machines. Each "group/peer-to-peer/simple network" is a separate "network" if you do this. This seems a bit silly with fewer than a half-dozen machines, but might be of use if you have users requiring significantly different restrictions on what they can access. Most such cases probably can be better handled with a single group using "privileges" appropriately.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 04:44 PM

I just use TCP/IP addresses in the 192.168.0 range. I assign the numbers manualy although the ADSL router is a dchp server. I do this as some machines, eg my webserver need static addresses. Of course I could just plug a box set up to "automaticaly get settings from dhcp" in and it should work fine.

My own feeling with dchp is that it probably comes into its own where you have a bank of machines where you don't care what IP addresses they are assigned and certainly don't want the hassle. On a small network like mine (5 machines) it's easy enough to manage even it involves local host files. (Although of course if you are using ICS [and maybe other sharing things] as your means of Internet sharingyou have no choice in the matter).

The nework has both file sharing etc. and Internet access. This Linux machine I'm on now is part of a Windows workgroup. This is done by running Samba. My Linux machines share folders with each other using NFS. Under NFS, I can if I want to decide which specific hosts should be allowed to share what - not sure if I can do that with Samba - I've never needed to look that far.

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 05:26 PM

Jon -

But you have a dhcp server and an ADSL router. That's obviously the way to go if your needs justify more than just a simple hookup of a few Windows machines. ICS and the built in Windows simple networking are seriously limited when you attempt to get into more complex management. Some additional options can be obtained by using a server version of Win2K or WinXP, but usually to make full use of the added stuff you'll need some more hardware.

Robin -

Information on address ranges comes largely from Microsoft KB article 308007: "How to troubleshoot home networking in Windows XP." An oops here - I apparently didn't learn this as well as I thought. The BEUI net uses 169.... idents, not 168. ones. The 168 apparently came from an older (Win95/Win3.11) article that I didn't copy, or maybe I just imagined it wrong. (I did say it wasn't particularly useful for me at present.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 05:43 PM

John - I was just putting it up as a point of interest. Although, for the price, I would seriously recommed a DSL/ cable router even if the plan is initialy 2 computers sharing files and the odd bit of Internet sharing. I'd not seen where my own network was heading when it started as 2 PCs on a 56K dialup.

Oh as another point of interest, I decided I couldn't be bothered working out what to keep on the Laptop. Just dragged the lot over to this machine... Lazy and took a bit of time but I can sort out my lack of organistation on the Laptop at my leisure now. Have downloaded another version of Linux (Ubunto) for my curiosity. Will burn that and put it on my laptop and see how it behaves - seemed OK on the live version I tried earlier. It might still end up back as purely a Win2K machine but sometimes I can't resist playing first...

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:50 PM

JiK

I used to play the role of a Sys Admin at work. The problem is that they keep moving the goalposts all the time. And I thought we kicked off with a soccer ball, what the hell is that guy on the other team doing with a hockey stick on the playing field?

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 08:22 PM

Robin -

It's Lacrosse --- soccer with lethal weapons.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 09:00 PM

Never had the job title "Sys Admin" but I have had "Systems Co-ordinator". Once had job of documenting every material movement in an MRP system for what was then BS5750, now ISO9000 I think for a site when I worked in manufacturing for a white goods co...

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 06:42 AM

I'm not even sure what direction I'm supposed to be running in anymore JiK... or if my wheelchair is up to speed...

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: JennyO
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 08:29 AM

Jon, I see where you say you have just downloaded Ubuntu. That's what I'm on now and I'm liking it a lot! There's an
Ubuntu Forum which is interesting, although I haven't posted on it yet. It's my home page now, so I've been lurking a bit. My son (Chaumurky) uses it a lot.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Tech: Home Network Set-up
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:54 PM

Oh well the PCIMA card installed fine this time round.

Glad you like Ubuntu, Jenny. I've installed it and Laptop is now dual boot. It will be interesting to see how it compares to Suse.

On thing I noticed in all this which surprised me somewhat was how much longer the Win Install took me which involved some hunting around for Dell/3Com ethernet drivers I'd lost and some mucking about dealing with "unknown devices" - maybe 3 hrs to sort it all out, have working LAN, Internet Acess, Sound card, etc.

I got Ubunto working similary but of course with the addition of partitioning, making dual boot, installation of a full office suite, firefox, etc... and no chages of CD in about 1hr.

Funny, I used to think Linux akward and I will openly admit to being way out of my depth the time I tried to set up Debian a few years back - I'd not a clue what to answer to some of the graphics questions for example. It (or at least some distributions - not sure what Debian is like now) really has come on in terms of catering for the layman since my first look.

That said, I did have some problems with my newer PCs - the AS Rock 64 bit network device (ALI) wasn't supported on the Suse dvd. Had to go through building kernel modules for that. The instructions were clear and it went well but still daunting (at least for me) and time consuming waiting for all the compiling.