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Luddites & Mill Song

Related threads:
BBC Luddite Lament-19 May, 11 AM (3)
BS: 200th Anniversary of 'Luddites' in 2012 (25)
Info required re: Luddites (32)
(origins) Origins: Songs from the Luddite Period (9)
Lyr Req: Luddite Song (6)


GUEST,Raggytash 21 Nov 05 - 05:52 AM
migginz 21 Nov 05 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 21 Nov 05 - 07:58 AM
GUEST 29 Nov 05 - 09:45 AM
Artful Codger 29 Nov 05 - 04:09 PM
danensis 29 Nov 05 - 04:30 PM
lamarca 29 Nov 05 - 05:55 PM
Dave Hanson 30 Nov 05 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 30 Nov 05 - 07:39 AM
HipflaskAndy 30 Nov 05 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 30 Nov 05 - 08:19 AM
HipflaskAndy 30 Nov 05 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Vic at work 30 Nov 05 - 09:46 AM
Artful Codger 30 Nov 05 - 03:06 PM
Malcolm Douglas 30 Nov 05 - 09:16 PM
Artful Codger 30 Nov 05 - 10:37 PM
Malcolm Douglas 30 Nov 05 - 10:58 PM
Dave Hanson 01 Dec 05 - 04:42 AM
HipflaskAndy 01 Dec 05 - 04:46 AM
HipflaskAndy 02 Dec 05 - 04:29 AM
Artful Codger 03 Dec 05 - 09:15 AM
Abby Sale 03 Dec 05 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Cuilionn (no biscuit?) 12 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM
Artful Codger 12 Jan 12 - 04:13 PM
r.padgett 13 Jan 12 - 08:50 AM
RTim 13 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM
DebC 13 Jan 12 - 09:57 AM
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Subject: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 05:52 AM

A friend who plays the working men's clubs wants to find songs about Luddites and Mills that he could "rock" up a bit for these audiences, have any of you good people got any ideas which songs may be suited to this.
I know for some this may be blasphemy but my take is that anything that gets folk song to a wider audience has to be postive


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: migginz
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:39 AM

I found this link when I was looking for the Croppers Song

Luddite Songs


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:58 AM

Joseph Radcliffe lived at Milnsbridge House which is just quite close to where I live, the land my house is built on was owned by him and I have a copy of his last will and testament in my deeds which makes fascinating reading


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:45 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Artful Codger
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:09 PM

Would a song about the Croppers (slightly post-Luddite--1820's-30's) do? If so, here's "Cropper Lads", which I only found in abbreviated form in other Mudcat threads. This version is from Lou & Sally Killen's LP "Bright, Shining Morning".

THE CROPPER LADS

Come Cropper lads of high renown
Who like to drink strong ale that's brown
And strike each haughty tyrant down
With hatchet, pike and gun!

(Chorus:)
O the Cropper lads for me, (my lads)
Gallant lads they be!
With lusty stroke
The shear frames broke.
The Cropper lads for me!

What, though the Specials still advance
And troopers lightly round us prance,
Us Cropper lads still lead the dance
With hatchet, pike and gun.
(Chorus)

And when at night, when all is still
And the moon is hid behind yon hill,
We still advance to do our will
With hatchet, pike and gun.
(Chorus)

Great Enoch still shall lead our van--
Stop him who dare, stop him who can.
Step forward, every gallant man,
With hatchet, pike and gun.
(Chorus)


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: danensis
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:30 PM

Sorry senility is setting in, but would Raplh McTell's song Factory Girl, or Cockersdale's "Prospect Providence" fit the bill, and I would think things like the DIggers Song would suit a left wing audience - indeed the whole of the "Raise you Banners" CD would!


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: lamarca
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 05:55 PM

As mentioned in the link Migginz gave above, there are several good collections of songs from the Industrial Revolution that contain songs about Ned Ludd and general laments about the loss of jobs resulting from industrialization. Try looking for copies of

Victoria's Inferno: Songs of the Old Mills, Mines, Manufactories, Canals & Railways by Jon Raven, Publisher: Wolverhampton: Roadside, 1978

Poverty Knock: a Picture of Industrial Life in the Nineteenth Century Through Songs, Ballads and Contemporary Accounts by Roy Palmer, Publisher: Cambridge University Press, 1974

A Touch on the Times. Songs of Social Change 1770 to 1914 by Roy Palmer, Publisher: Penguin Education, 1974

I found several available through http://www.abebooks.com/


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:32 AM

In the last verse of ' The Cropper Lads, ' Great Enoch is surely a Luddite reference, Enochs Hammer was what they called the big hammer used to smash looms.

eric


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:39 AM

Enoch "Taylor" I think (not 100% on the surname) made cropping frames in Marsden, just outside Huddersfield. The Luddites had a saying "Enoch shall make them and Enoch shall break them" a reference to the hammers they used to smash machinery


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Subject: Lyr Add: RAWFORD'S MILL (D. McFarlane)
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:54 AM

Hi Raggy - haven't heard from/seen you for a bit.
The band currently on with their second album and we have the following song in line for it.
Strangely enough, after performing it over at the Grosvenor, Robin Hood's Bay, a chap local to the area being talked about in the song came up to me and chastised me for calling it Hightown - told me the locals say 'Ee'town. That right? It's from your neck of the woods innit?
Anyway, as you can guess, we 'rock it up' a bit already - but if'n y' wanna PM an email address (yer mate's or yours) I'll send youse an mp3 of a live take of the song if ya like.
OK? see ya somewhere e'er long - cheers - Duncan

PS a wierd turn up.... since writing this, got booked to play (solo) at The Star, Roberttown early next year - spooky!

Rawfold's Mill (D.McFarlane)

Times were hard and desperate, new machines installed
And loss of work and poverty were all their future held
One secret night in Hightown Spen Valley men did swear
To smash the water-powered devils there
In Rawfold's Mill

They heard of new deliveries, the transport wagons came
They ambushed them at Hartshead – wreaked havoc on the frames
And spurred on by victory, another aim in sight
Their mind was set, all out attack by night
On Rawfold's Mill

The mob charged at the mill now – where once they'd been employed
Hurled stones into the windows – and fired through the void
They overcame the sentries – and tried to break the door
But withering musket volleys – put two men to the floor
At Rawfold's Mill

They dragged the wounded to an alehouse - and pulled them both inside
There in the Star at Roberttown – first Hartley, then Booth, died
So Cartwright, he gave evidence – his battle being won
And William Hall and sixteen more – were tried and they were hung
For Rawfold's Mill


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:19 AM

Duncan me old china, how the devil are you. I'll pm email address later, have you seen the Runswick Bay thread. A repetition of the computer song would not go amiss !


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:26 AM

I'm fine lad - and you? and Wombat?
Will search the thread you mention... see what I can do.
Cheers! - D


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST,Vic at work
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:46 AM

Hi,
How about Nottingham Captain by Bill Prince [Sung, possibly recorded by Roy Bailey]

It has been 'accepted fact' in Leicestershire that Ned Ludd was a well known simpleton from the village of Anstey so locals who were smashing frames always used his name as no one would ever think he would do this sort of thing-another form of guising.
Vic


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Artful Codger
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:06 PM

Some additional info, from ingeb.org:

"Under the Combination Acts of 1799 and 1800, strikes and trade union organization were illegal (though by no means unknown), so the croppers secretly banded together to resist by smashing the offending frames or even by burning down the workshops in which they were housed. To carry out their work of destruction, they carried great hammers, known as Enochs, from the name of one of the partners of the firm that made them, Enoch and James Taylor of Marsden. Ironically, the same firm also made the shear-frames, which gave rise to the saying 'Enoch has made them and Enoch shall break them'. [...]

Despite the strong military presence, there were several attacks, including that on Foster's Mill, between Horbury and Ossett (near Wakefield), which took place on 9 April 1812. Three days later the croppers were less successful: their famous assault on Rawfolds Mill in the Spen valley was successfully repulsed by the owner, William Cartwright, and some workers and soldiers. Eight men later stood trial at York for their part in the attack, three others involved having already been hanged (and their bodies delivered to the surgeons to be dissected and anatomized) for the murder of the owner of another mill, William Horsfall. Five of the eight were found guilty, and hanged. They included John Walker, who had enlisted in the Royal Artillery at Woolwich to try to escape detection. He was remembered for many years afterwards at the Shears Inn (not far from Rawfolds, and still standing) for his singing of 'The Croppers' Song': 'Long before Walker had come to the end of his song the rollicking chorus was eagerly caught up by his delighted audience, and when the end was reached the refrain was twice repeated with extraordinary vigour, many of the men beating time on the long table with their sticks and pewter mugs.' The piece itself is clearly home-made, and is closely related to a song that tells of a conflict between keepers and poachers. On the other hand, the reverse might possibly be true, for I have come across no version of the poaching song dating from as early as 1812."


The song posted on this site is quite close to the Killens' version. Note, however, that this source claims only 8 men were hanged (and only 5 for the Rawfold's Mill incident), rather than the 16 asserted in McFarlane's song.


Some additional snippets about the mythical Ned Ludd from various web pages:
"The [Luddite] movement was believed to have been founded by Ned Ludd, but he was never identified, and may well be mythical. Some authorities claim his surname to be Ludlam. [...] The leader of the Marsden Luddites was George Mellor."

"The origin of 'Ludd' is unknown. There is no foundation for the story put out by The Nottingham Review on 20 December 1811, that an apprentice named Ned Ludd once smashed a machine of a master near Leicester and hence gave his name to the action. It is more likely that the local Nottingham speech had an expression similar to the one in Cornwall, where "sent all of a lud" meant "struck all of a heap", or smashed. More likely still, the name came from an historic King Lud who, as Milton wrote, gave his name to "Luds town, now London . . . [and was] buried by the GateWarr, in Peace a jolly Feaster," which sounds a lot like the Nottingham model."

[From Wikipedia:] "Ned Lud or Ned Ludd is the person that forms the basis for the character of "King (also known as Captain or General) Ludd" who was supposedly the leader and founder of the Luddites. He is supposed to have been feeble-minded.

No proof to his existence has been found, but he is often thought to have come from the village of Anstey, just outside Leicester, where he broke two stocking frames in a rage. The incident is identified as being in 1779, rather than at the time of the Luddites in the 1810s. The act was one of frustration, rather than an act of vandalism against the technology that the stocking frames represented: that technology had been in existence for almost two centuries. Lud was apparently annoyed by two children mocking his lack of intellect, and chased them into their house. Finding that they had escaped, he proceeded to break up their mother's frames. If this account is true then his action – carried through the years in folk memory – was thus mischaracterised by the Luddites. The character of Ned Ludd was commemorated in the folk ballad "General Ludd's Triumph." Chumbawamba recorded a version of it on their 1985 release, English Rebel Songs: 1381-1985."

Cheers!


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:16 PM

The notes quoted at ingeborg.org are copied (without acknowledgement so far as I can see, which is very bad form) from Roy Palmer, The Sound of History, 1988, p 104. The song indicated is also copied without acknowledgement from Palmer's book; the text is from Frank Peel, The Risings of the Luddites, p 47, while the tune to which Palmer set it is The Gallant Poachers, as sung by George Dunn of Quarry Bank, Staffordshire, 1971 (see Folk Music Journal, 2, no. 4 (1973), 276.

Another reference quoted above is from http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Luddite-History.htm; 'The Achievements of "General Ludd": A Brief History of the Luddites': Kirkpatrick Sale, in The Ecologist, v. 29, n. 5, August/September 99.

It's always best to identify sources, as so much gross misinformation is published on the internet. Certainly it's unwise to believe anything you find in the various iterations of 'Wikipedia' unless they acknowledge the sources they have drawn on (or, all too often, plagiarised); although in this particular case the information seems to follow usual patterns; wherever they got it.


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Artful Codger
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:37 PM

I see the upraised nose of the Quibbling Aesthete and hear its characteristic bark: Carp! Carp! Carp! Time to dismount.


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:58 PM

Give credit where it is due, and acknowledge your sources; when copying-and-pasting from other people's websites just as much as when quoting from anywhere else. Elementary courtesy, no more; and nobody is too important, or too busy, for that.


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 04:42 AM

In his excellent book,' 100 Songs Of Toil ' Karl Dallas touches on the Luddites and mentions a handbill which was passed around at the time,

Deface this who dare,
They shall have tyrants fare,
For Ned is everywhere,
And can see, and can hear.

He also says that the name Lud probably comes from the anglo saxon word leod, meaning ' people '

eric


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 04:46 AM

Hmmmm, interesting...

'I see the upraised nose of the Quibbling Aesthete and hear its characteristic bark: Carp! Carp! Carp!'

...a bit unnecessary I feel.
I wonder if that poster's same sentiment might apply to such a post as his other...

'The song posted on this site is quite close to the Killens' version. Note, however, that this source claims only 8 men
were hanged (and only 5 for the Rawfold's Mill incident), rather than the 16 asserted in McFarlane's song.'

...thank you for your input, sir (madam?), surely not a 'carp' in itself? I do hope not.
By way of courteous reply, I should add....
I very much doubt you have heard my actual 'song' and any inference that it is 'quite close' to some other song
might just (on this public forum) be doing me an injustice?

I have never heard the Killens' 'version' (as you term it) which I suppose must be a different song entirely.
I therefore can only assume that you mean the 'lyric' I posted might well mention the same subject matter
- hardly a surprise if both efforts cover the same factual story.

As for any 'correctness' within the content, I did my utmost to research the event when I set out to write my 'song'.
I am certain I used 'sixteen' because my effort unearthed that seventeen were sentenced…

'William Hall and sixteen more were tried and they were hung'

…in fact my memory tells me that this particular line may have been, er, 'lifted' directly from the book
as its metre was perfect for the setting in my melody!

I am at work and do not have the reference book that sourced most of the lyric to hand at the moment.
I do have it at home though.
I will check my 'figures' tonight and post my 'findings', the author and title up on here tomorrow (given time) for one and all to see.
I might even change my lyric if my figures are wrong, no skin off my nose and pedants everywhere can, no doubt, then rest easy.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted so impetuously? I could have waited till I was able to quote my sources.
The highly knowledgeable and always impeccably informed Malcolm D (much respect!) is quite right there.
But I was merely trying to be of service in replying to my friend Raggy's post….

'A friend who plays the working men's clubs wants to find songs about Luddites and Mills that he could
"rock" up a bit for these audiences, have any of you good people got any ideas which songs may be suited to this.'

…didn't anticipate a quibble. Ah well.
Cheers - HFA


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:29 AM

Hello again.
I do hope this information is of use to any interested party.

I have now found the book that sourced most of my lyric.
It is 'Tales from West Yorkshire' by Leonard Markham,
first published by Countryside Books (Newbury, Berkshire) in 1992, reprinted 2001, ISBN 1 85306 190 5.
I surmise from the extensive bibliography at the back of the book that Mr Markham's own research would have been gleaned from the 'History of Spen Valley' (Douglas Hird 1985), 'Annals of Yorkshire' (John Mayhall 1862), 'Yorkshire Oddities, Incidents & Strange Events' (S Baring Gould 1874) and 'Legendary Yorkshire' (Frederick Ross 1872)

The relevant paragraph (word for word ) from my source book reads as follows….

'Cartwright offered evidence which lead to the arrest of William Hall and sixteen of his followers,
and with obscene alacrity, the accused were tried, convicted and publicly hanged.'

So my line…

'William Hall and sixteen more were tried and they were hung'

…not only fits my melody snugly, but has been obtained from what I consider to be a bone fide source.
Therefore, for now, I would prefer not to have my work deemed 'wrong'.

My own memory does seem to have failed (again!) in the belief I might have pulled the line in question word for word from the text.
I now remember being glad it just didn't simply say…
'Seventeen were….' for happily, by isolating William Hall in the text, the author helped me make it 'scan'.

I will stick with my lyric as written, though I will not claim my source is the definitive one.
I am always willing to 'correct' my work when necessary and may yet do so if ever convinced there is a more authoritative source.
That OK with everyone? – Cheers - HFA


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 09:15 AM

HFA: You've misunderstood. When I said "close", I was referring to the two versions of "Cropper Lads" (the "Killens'" version I posted and the one at the site I quoted from); I wasn't comparing "Cropper Lads" to your song or talking about some "Killens'" version of your song.

Nor did I claim your count was wrong and the other source's right, I merely noted the discrepancy from what was in the section I quoted (for quite a different reason.) Maybe Markham's right, maybe wrong; maybe they're both right, in their own contextual scopes. And maybe you presumed all sixteen were tried and hung when Markham (per the quote you provide) doesn't necessarily say that. Whatever the case, I hardly think I was "quibbling" by mentioning it; to my mind, quibbling involves deliberate contentiousness.

As for Malcolm, his supplemental information is welcome, but his demeaning attitude, not a whit. And when he presumes to impose his own narrow standards on other people's posts, well, he deserves just what he got. I don't tell other people how to post (except when their noses butt into my business), and I expect the same consideration.

Now, how about returning to the topic?


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 11:53 AM

Artful Codger: I can't but totally disagree. I'm a big fan of Malcolm's simply because I know I can trust what he posts as "best source." This is not snobbery, this is simple scholarship. And I much admire him for never being lazy about it. I say that as a person (that is, me) who is often sloppy about it against my best intentions.   

If we present answers or new info as "I think" or "I seem to recall" that's one thing. People know to take it with a grain of salt. If we state a "fact" we should be able to back that up at least with our source. Further, we should provide some sense of the reliability of the source. Most of the Web has the reliability of a grade school research paper.

It's why I caution people not to take my Happy posts too seriously or rely on them as authoritative. And why I welcome expansions & corrections. Some are authoritative, yes, but most aren't. The earliest ones collected are generally the best for research as well as the worst for attribution. (They don't have to be authoritative really. Just a jumping-off place for people to look into things.)

His other point was that copying wholesale from a source without attribution is just plain rude. Same today as it was 100 years ago. It's got a name - plagiarism.

I further begin to regret that I've used the web at all for research. It's so easy to use compared to finding & reading source books (themselves, needing to be assessed for reliability) that it's damned seductive. BUT, as has often been posted, you can post any crap you like on the web and the search engines do not score for accuracy.

Lastly, I'm finding that URLs frequently change or fall to disuse. What use to cite a link I picked up 5 years ago when the author dismantled it 3 years ago?   

Now, how about returning to the topic?

Good idea. Er, what was it again?

1) I have a bunch of old and "neo-old" Luddite songs but not a single firm date to attach any of them to.   Are there any.

2) Is there any further info on whether General Ludd was a real or mythical person?


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: GUEST,Cuilionn (no biscuit?)
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Hi ho! Came across this website recently--not sure how active the organizers are as the blog looks little-used, but the links and the BBC program on Luddite history and songs are great!

200 years of Luddites!

Does anyone know of any other memorial concerts, projects, or events in the UK, USA, or elsewhere during this anniversary year? We're thinking about pulling something together ourselves if we can come up with a strong enough program.

--Cuilionn


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 04:13 PM

I wonder if neo-Luddites use sound systems, amplified instruments or video recording at their concerts...


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 08:50 AM

I can report that there are two initiatives to stage play/song works on the Luddites/Croppers

One to be at Hudersfield, West Yorks and the other via The Drovers folk club who will I believe be doing one or two at and around Cleckheaton folk festival time 2012

Ray

ps
I have asked then to ensure that they record on DVD and similar from the Drovers see also www.yorkshirefolksong.net


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: RTim
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM

A Song from Hampshire, collected by DR. George Gardiner.

Tim Radford

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Owslebury Lads
The thirteenth of November, eighteen hundred and thirty,
The Owslebury lads they did prepare all for the machinery,
And when they did get there, my eye! how they let fly,
The machinery flew to pieces in the twinkling of an eye.

Chorus
The mob, such a mob, you have never seen before,
And if you live for a hundred years you never will no more.

0 then to Winchester we were sent, our trial for to take,
And if we do have nothing said, our counsel we shall keep;
But when the judges did begin, I'm sorry for to say
So many there was transported for life and some was cast to die.

Some times our parents they comes in all for to see us all,
Some times they bring tobaccy or a loaf that is so small;
Then we goes into the kitchen and sits all around about,
There is so many of us in there that we all be soon smoked out.

At six o'clock in the morning our turnkey he comes in
With a bunch of keys all in his hand tied up all in a string,
And we can't get any further than back across the yard,
With a pound and a half of bread a day,
Now don't you think that hard?

At six o'clock in the evening the turnkey he comes round,
The locks and bolts do rattle like the sounding of a drum,
And we are all locked up again all in our cells so high,
And there we stay till morning, whether we live or die.

And now for to conclude and finish with my song,
1 trust you gentlemen round me will think that I'm not wrong,
And all the poor in Hampshire for rising of their wages
I hope that none of our enemies will ever want for places.


Collected from James Stagg, Winchester - March 1906 (H204)
Really in 1830 not 1813.


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Subject: RE: Luddites & Mill Song
From: DebC
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:57 AM

Remembering Malcolm.

And of course he was absolutely correct when it comes to giving credit. Thanks, Malcolm.

Debra


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