Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure (Mike & Peggy Seeger)

Subject: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: GUEST,Diana
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:09 PM

I am looking for the notation for the tune and the harmony of "A Virgin Most pure" that is recorded on Mike, Peggy and Penny Seeger's Album
American Folksongs for Christmas. I have the MP3, but I am not sure if there is a better way than by ear to pull out the harmony.
Thanks. I would like to sing this as a duet for Christmas

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: Peace
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 06:28 PM

Sheet music here.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: GUEST,Diana
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 06:41 PM

Thank you, Peace.
This is not exactly the same tune as the particular duet that I am thinking of is sung. I think what I am trying to do is convert the MP3 to midi, and then produce the notation from that. Does anyone know of an easy and cheap way to do this?

Thanks again!

diana

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 07:08 PM

Mike, Peggy and Penny Seeger: American Folk Songs for Christmas, with sound clips. Disc 1, track 14: "A Virgin Most Pure."

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: Compton
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 07:33 PM

There's a nice version of this on a Maddy Prior / Carnival Band CD...The first I think !

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 08:44 PM

The song has often been found in oral currency; it was printed on broadsides, and beside Sandys (link above) was published by Chappell and others. Probably the Seeger set is based on the example printed in Jackson, Down-East Spirituals (1941) p 26 and reproduced in Ruth Crawford Seeger, American Folk Songs for Christmas (Doubleday, 1953) pp 26-27 (information from the Roud Folk Song Index).

The Seeger book seems readily available from second-hand dealers, and is probably still in many public libraries. I've never seen a copy, but I'd imagine that it gives the basic melody line only; you would have to work out the rest for yourself.

What you will not find is software that will convert a complex audio recording to an elementary set of instructions for midi. Some claim to be able to do so, but the results (if accurate) are liable to be of bewildering complexity; or (if not accurate) to be unrecognisable. Give it another decade or so. Meanwhile, it is far quicker to work it out for yourself by ear, particularly if you get yourself a copy of that book to work from.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: GUEST,Diana
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:14 PM

Thank you very much.
Through your information I have found much more than my original question.

These songs haunt me

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 11:02 PM

In the book the song is written out in 4-part harmony. The notes say:

"Tune and st. 1-4 from DES [Down-East Spirituals, by George Pullen Jackson, J. J. Augustin, New York, 1941] p. 26, quoted from a MS 4-shape song book made near Emmitsburg, Md., between 1800 and 1839; st. 5 and accompaniment from Repository of Sacred Music, Part Second, by John Wyeth, Harrisburg, Pa., 1820, p.29."

Although undoubtedly inspired by the book's setting, given that Mike & Peggy's performance is 2-part, getting their version of the harmony from the recording is probably your only option.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 11:41 PM

Thanks for the details, Becky. Go for the book, Diana! It may offer you extra ideas and options that you'll enjoy.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 12:08 AM

The "Hymns and Carols of Christmas" gives the Sandys and Gilbert texts and sheet music. Also other sheet music from several sources, the most recent being Pickard-Cambridge, 1926, Dorset Carols. Many notes.
Several midis.
Not the Seeger, however.
A Virgin Most Pure

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 12:12 AM

http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/a_virgin_most_pure.htm
A Virgin Most Pure

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: GUEST,Diana
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 05:46 AM

Book is ordered.
I am tempted by the Jackson, too. Just to see what else is it!

I also discovered last night I can listen with headphones, and
hear one part at a time by blocking one side of the headphones.

Maybe I will have to insist on getting the piano out of storage soon...

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: masato sakurai
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 05:47 AM

X:1
T:Virgin Unspotted
M:3/2
L:1/4
K:G
S:George Pullen Jackson, Down-East Spirituals and Others, 1943; rpt. Da Capo, 1975, pp. 25-26
G|G (d/c/) (d/c/)|B B (B/A/)|G B (A/G/)|G2:|
w:A vir-gin_ un - spot-ted the_ pro-phet fore - told,
w:Should bring forth_ a_ Sav-ior which_ now we be - hold;
B|A A c|B G G|B d c| d2 B|
w:To be our Re-dee-mer from death hell and sin, Which
w:(Chorus)~Then let us be mer-ry, cast sor-rows a-way; Our
(c/d/) (e/d/) c|d d (B/A/)|G B (A/G/)|G2:|]
w:Ad - am's_ trans-gres-sion in - vol-ved us_ in.
w:Sav - ior,_ Christ Je-sus, was_ born on this_ day.

Through Bethlehem city in Jewry it was,
That Joseph and Mary together did pass;
And for to be taxéd when thither they came,
Since Caesar Augustus commanded the same.
(Chorus) Then let us be merry etc.

But Mary's full time being come, as we find,
She brought forth her first born to serve all mankind.
The inn being full for this heavenly guest,
No place there was found for to lay him to rest.

But Mary, blest Mary, so meek and so mild,
Soon wrappéd in swadlings this heavenly child.
Contented she laid him where oxen [did] feed,
The great God of nature approv'd of the deed.

Then presently after, the shepherds did spy
Vast numbers of angels to stand in the sky;
So merrily talking, so sweet they did sing:
All glory and praise to our heavenly King.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: GUEST,Diana
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 09:05 AM

Wow! Thanks

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: WooBerry
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 10:16 AM

Masato, can you enlighten me about what else is in the Jackson book?
I recently started teaching Sunday School to young children, and have found that I can combine my love of folk music with a theological message in this kind of song. A lot of the lyrics are surprisingly scripturally accurate, and I surmise that these songs served as scripture lessons for those who couldn't read well, or who didn't have access to a bible. Which makes them ideal for the children (as young as three)
My first song that I discovered in this genre was on an old Joan Baez LP that I had, called Baby Moses. I had used it as a lullaby for my oldest son (and of course changed the words unknowingly) and when I needed a song for a class one day, this fit the bill.
I am looking for a source, would Jackson be a good place to look?

Diana-now WooBerry

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: masato sakurai
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 11:03 AM

Diana-now WooBerry, if it is "Little Moses," see this thread: Who wrote and sings 'Little Moses'?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: WooBerry
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 12:00 PM

Well yes that is the same song, and if it is in that book, I best get that book. Sounds like I would like the ones in it.    I like that there are different versions and lyrics out there. For instance on the Mike Peggy and Penny album there is a song called "Great Big Stars" which has a refrain something like: "every little soul gonna shine, shine," and it only took me few minutes to realize that it was the same refrain on Burl Ives song "Mr. Rabbit" Wonder how that happened...

Diana

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: masato sakurai
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:17 PM

Diana, this is a "Virgin Most Pure" thread. How about starting a new one?

Another score (with descant & piano accompaniment) found in The Second Penguin Book of Christmas Carols:

X:2
T:A Virgin Most Pure
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:G
B:Elizabeth Poston, The Second Penguin Book of Christmas Carols, 1970, pp. 34-36
S:Wyeth's Repository of Sacred Music, 1820, arr. E[lizabeth] P[oston].
"G"G|G d (d/c/)|B B (B/A/)|G B (A/G/)|G2 D|
w:A vir-gin most_ pure, as the_ pro-phet for - told, Should
G d (d/c/)|B B (B/A/)|G B (A/G/)|G2 B|
w:bring forth a_ Sa-vior which_ now we be - hold, To
"C"A A "D"c|"G"B G G|B d "A"^c|"D"d2 B|
w:be our Re-deem-er from death, hell and sin, Which
"C"(c/d/) e "A"^c|"D"d d (B/A/)|"G"G B "C"(A/G/)|"G"G2||
w:Ad - am's trans-gres-sion in - vol-ved us_ in.
B|"C"A A "D"c|"G"B G G |B d "A"^c|"D"d2 B|
w:(Refrain)~Then let us be mer-ry, cast sor-rows a-way; Our
"C"(c/d/) e "A"^c|"D"d d (B/A/)|"G"G B "C"(A/G/)|"G"G2||
w:Sav - ior, Christ Je-sus, was_ born on this_ day.

Verses 2-5 are substantially the same as the Jackson version's above.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: WooBerry
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:39 PM

I did one better than starting a new thread. I found the Mr. Rabbit thread and added my comment to that!

As far as your notation, I am not quite sure I understand it.
I can guess, but is there a key to the code somewhere?
I have asked several friends at work today, and they are not familiar either.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: WooBerry
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:44 PM

Oh, also I have transcribed the last verse (of three) in the Peggy and Penny Seeger rendition. The first verse is identical to the one you just posted (Poston)

The second is substantially the same as the fourth verse in Jackson.

The last is:

To teach us humility, all this was done
Then learn we from hence haughty pride for to shun
A manger's his cradle who came from above
The Great God of Mercy, of peace and of love

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: WooBerry
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:07 PM

Okay, I found the ABC key, and even followed your directions already there to the Concertina website. Anything that is called a "convertomatic" has got to be good! The first tune is the one that is the melody on the Seeger record. Now I am off to find out if I can write the notes for the harmony, and if I can do that can I somehow code it so that it prints out in ABD!

Diana

PS Don't ask me what I have been supposed to be doing all day!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: WooBerry
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:29 PM

I am either too old or too tired! My last formal music training was 30 years ago in high school... The trouble is, the tune you gave me is the correct one, but it is in G. The tune in the song is E flat, starting with the lower E. I can't manage to hear the tune in E flat and then write it down in G. I thought that I could just change the K: notation to Eb but it didn't actually change the notes. So I guess I will bring it over to the organist and have her do it for me.

Thanks for all your help!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 03:39 PM

Having brung the Christmas recordings out to the light for the season, I thought it would be appropriate to add this from Peggy Seeger's notes for the 1989 recording of American Folk Songs for Christmas:

"There is no 'correct' way to perform these songs. We didn't stick absolutely to the book nor to traditional techniques (for indeed, neither did our mother: she collated many texts, excised harmonies, found tunes for texts which had no tunes, and tells us in the Introduction to the book exactly when and where she did this). We have occasionally departed from the pace, the setting, or the singing style of the 'original' from which the song was taken. Sometimes we improvised verses and changed the harmonic interpretation made by RCS [Ruth Crawford Seeger], for she was definitely orientated to classical usage."

Peggy makes reference to their settings of a few specific songs, but not this one.

Also, the performance on the recording is by Sonya Cohen (Penny Seeger's daughter) and Penny Seeger (sister to Mike and Peggy). Listening to it now -- it is lovely. Listening and reading and noodling on the old concertina, it doesn't look as though their harmony line derives from any in the RCS setting.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:14 PM

Here are the two lines: melody and harmony, in Eb, as on the album.

~ Becky

X:1
T:A Virgin Most Pure
C:Trad.
N:as sung by Sonya Cohen & Penny Seeger
Q:1/4=120
V:1
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:Eb
E2 |E2 BA BA |G2 G2 GF |E2 G2 FE |E4 E2 |E2 BA BA |G2 G2 GF |E2 G2 FE |E4 G2 |F2 F2 A2 |G2 E2 E2 |G2 B2 A2 |B4 G2 |AB cB A2 |B2 B2 GF |E2 G2 FE |E4 G2 |F2 F2 A2 |G2 E2 E2 |G2 B2 A2 |B4 G2 |AB cB A2 |
B2 B2 GF |E2 G2 FE |E4 |]
V:2
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:Eb
E2 |E2 E2 D2 |C2 C2 G,2 |A,2 B,2 A,2 |G,4 E2 |E2 E2 D2 |C2 C2 G,2 |A,2 B,2 A,2 |G,4 G,2 |B,2 B,2 B,2 |B,2 G,2 G,2 |B,2 E2 E2 |E4 B,2 |CD E2 E2 |E2 E2 B,2 |C2 A,2 B,A, |G,4 G,2 |B,2 B,2 B,2 |B,2 G,2 G,2 |
B,2 E2 E2 |D4 B,2 |CD E2 E2 |E2 E2 B,2 |C2 A,2 B,A, |G,4 |]

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: GUEST,Wooberry at Work
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:52 AM

Becky I love you!
Thanks

Diana

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Se
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:22 PM

A pleasant Sunday afternoon exercise. :-)

~ B in T

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure-Mike and Peggy Seeger
From: WooBerry
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:44 AM

I am now the happy owner of three new books, the Ruth Crawford Seeger book "American Folk Songs for Christmas" which has tunes and harmonies all written out. I also got the two George Pullen Jackson books Spiritual Folk Songs of Early America and Down-East Spirituals and Others. I am in pig heaven! Going off to read :)

Subject: RE: Tune Req: A Virgin Most Pure (Mike & Peggy Seeger)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:03 PM

This may be a long shot, but has anyone got / would anyone be able to transcribe the two-part arrangement sung by Shirley Collins and Heather Wood on the Young Tradition album The Holly Bears the Crown? The tune is close to some of the sheet music I've seen, but not quite identical. In ABC the first line of the melody goes something like this:

X:1
K:F
M:3/4
L:1/8
G2|GABAGF|GA B3 G|AB c2 F2|G4

and the first line of the harmony part

X:1
K:F
M:3/4
L:1/8
F2|E2D2F2|E2D3G|F2E2D2|C4

After that it gets complicated...

Anyone know/recognise this version of the tune?