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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Greg B Date: 15 May 07 - 07:10 PM Regarding this horse--- He's dead, Jim. Blow the Man Down, in its several versions, is a long drag or halyard shanty dating at least from the age of the clippers or no less old than the 'packet' trade which was the last gasp of sail. These were large vessels, and somewhat under-crewed. Raising tops'l yards is a ton (literally) of work, and was accompanied by songs like 'Blow the Man Down' which had two pulls on each line of the chorus. Such songs were useless on anything so lightly rigged as coasters or even on the 'hybrid' steam/sail vessels. Furthermore, virtually EVERY version of Blow the Man Down (Hugill gives at least four) has tell-tale references to both land and sea terms which CLEARLY DATE IT FROM THE AGE OF THE SAILING PACKETS. To claim that it has anything to do with steam, or speaking tubes, etc., it to ignore historical references, oral tradition, naval architecture, and is about as silly as claiming that 'Row Row Row Your Boat' was written to accompany the pulling of the starting-rope on an Evinrude outboard. And by the way, it's 'Too-Lye-Ay' not bloody 'Too-Rye-Ay.' |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 15 May 07 - 06:26 PM Jim- Yes, Charley Noble's been here and gone, Left you here to sing your song! Good luck on your search for enlightenment. LOL Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Amos Date: 15 May 07 - 03:49 PM I think it means what it says, Jim! A |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 03:44 PM Oops! I see Charley's already been in here. I don't always read the names. Greg: "The song dates from the heavy-hauling required on packet ships under sail." What does that mean? |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Greg B Date: 15 May 07 - 03:37 PM The expression predates steam and sailing ships, by and large didn't have 'speaking tubes' because it wasn't necessary. Who were you going to talk to in the cargo hold anyway? Interesting hypotheses. Absolute guano, but other than that, interesting. If that doesn't convince you consider this: the songs (various versions) refer to the Black Ball Line and the Flying Fish line. Both pre-date steam, and the associated speaking-tubes used to communicate with the guys in the engine room. The song dates from the heavy-hauling required on packet ships under sail. So does the expression. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 02:19 PM Where's Charley Noble? He'll either agree with you or know the right answer. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 01:59 PM Pipe Down: This originally nautical term was used as an officer's whistle sound denoting the completion of an above-deck work shift and thereby giving permission to go below. This expression is now used to mean "be quiet" or keep quiet". Yes. It took about three minutes to come up with this similar definition. All references I find to "Blow the man down" state that it means "To kill someone". But they're wrong. Cheers. Jim p.s. Those who really do know the answer are probably enjoying watching me flounder here! |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Amos Date: 15 May 07 - 01:57 PM Jim Lad: If you can find evidence that the use of speaking tubes predates the expression I'll be glad to consider your argument, but at present it seems improbable to me. A |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Schantieman Date: 15 May 07 - 01:51 PM "Pipe down" is (or used to be) the last pipe of the day made at the start of silent hours (normally 2230 or 2300). The next one, except in an emergency, was "Call the hands" at 0600 or 0630 followed, I think, by "up hammocks". Its meaning is, of course, 'shut up and go to sleep' and it's in this context that it's used as a general admonishment to shut up. (The instrument, btw, is the boatswain's call; pipes are the signals made using it). Steve |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 01:35 PM I'll find it for you but will you believe me? |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 01:34 PM Just Kidding! pipe down A boatswain's call denoting the completion of an all hands evolution, and that you can go below. This expression is also used to mean "Keep quiet." Heh, heh! I've come across this before on Mudcat. Someone asks for a definition and one is so different from the rest that it gets completely rejected. That's why it's called a "Popular" misconception. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 01:31 PM Oh, Pipe Down! |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Schantieman Date: 15 May 07 - 01:25 PM I think they already have, Jim. Also: They gave me six months in Liverpool Town For knocking a policeman and blowing him down Steve |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 10:32 AM Be patient: Those who do know of it will make their contributions in due course. Trust me. Jim |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Amos Date: 15 May 07 - 09:55 AM The use of speaking tubes developed in the early days of steam, IIRC, and considerable later than the expression "blow the man down". Until the advent of engines and engine rooms, the relay of orders was done on deck and upwards from there, mainly by So I don't think "blow the man down" has its origins in a nautical version of "ring the lad up". A |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Barry Finn Date: 15 May 07 - 09:03 AM "Blow the man down" refers to the communication system on board the older vessels" "Blow the man down" = "Call him up" Can you site any references to these Jim? First time I've ever heard of it used in that sense Jim. All written reports refering to "Blow a man Down" I've read or heard of has been to knock one down with your fists. Even some of the collected songs sing it as "Knock a man down". In the BWI's there are collected versions of the same called "Kick Him Along", the song's also been known as "knock A Man Down". I have seen the types of tube you're talking about on vessels of a later age but not on ones from the great age of sail, not that there weren't any, I've also seen them on Navy vessels used for the bousun's whistle but again of a later age. From the British West Indies: I hit him a lick & I fetch him a kick And a yea, yea, blow the man down Blow the man down in de hole below 'Low me some time to blow the man down Blow the man down & a hit de man down And a yea, yea, blow de the man down From 'Songs of the Sea', Hugill p.76 "'To blow" means to strike, (see Lesley N's post above) the chief mate of Blackballers being called 'Blower' & the 2nd mate the 'Striker'" From 'Roll & Go', Colcord, p10: "It should be noted that in those days, "blow" meant "knock" From 'Shantymen & Shantyboys', Doerflinger, p.17: "It is said that packet sailors called the 2nd & 3rd mates the "blowers & strikers"-the 2 terms meant the same thing". From 'Sea Songs & Shanties', Whall, p.69: "'Blow" in those days was equivalent to "knock". The 3rd mate in those days was endearingly termed the 3rd "blower & striker", the 2nd mate being the "greaser"'. I can't buy into that one Jim, sorry. Barry |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 15 May 07 - 08:16 AM Mo- "Windbag man" is old sailor slang for sailors who shipped out on deep-sea sailing ships (sometimes referred to as "windjammers"), rather than steamers. With a good wind, the sails would fill (if properly braced) much like a bag. Oh, and the lines by C. Fox Smith above are from her poem "Lee Fore Brace" and after correcting for a typo should read: "An Christ," says Dan, "for a night in port, an' a Dago fiddler's tune, An' just one whiff of the drinks again, in a Callao saloon." Alan Fitzsimmonds has adapted this poem for singing, as recorded by Danny McLeod et al. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 May 07 - 07:58 AM I suppose if you blew the man up, that would imply some sort of explosive device. Whereas if you blow him down, like you say Jim that could mean he was coming off his watch - albeit a bit cream crackered. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 03:29 AM ...I'm sure there are ... can't beleive i done thaT. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 15 May 07 - 03:26 AM "Blow the man down" refers to the communication system on board the older vessels. Basically a tube that ran from up on deck to "Down" below. The skipper would first blow down the pipe for attention and then bellow out his instructions to the unfortunate subordinate below. "Blow the man down" = "Call him up" Now I know that some of you will think, I'm pulling your legs but if you hang around long enough, I'm sure their are a number of old salts in Mudcat who will explain this one better than I. Ahoy! Jim |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Mo the caller Date: 15 May 07 - 01:57 AM 'Stan Hugill cites C.Fox Smith, as someone who "gives us in two lines the outlook of the windbag man":' Go on then - someone has to ask - what's a 'windbag man'. I thought I knew what a windbag was, but it doesn't fit the context. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: GUEST,Gjpsy Date: 15 May 07 - 01:46 AM Hi, A little off topic here... Have any of you been to a Rennaisance Faire and heard the Wenches or Rogues singing "Roll Your Leg Over"? It's sung to the tune of "Blow the Man Down" and is quite cute and witty... Many of them create their own verses to keep the song going... Most of the verses can be interpretted as suggestive or in any way possible... One such verse is "If all the young laddies were curves in the road, I'd hug them all tightly when on them I rode." This would be sung by a Wench, the Rogues also have their own rendition of verses just as suggestive or interpretive... When they get rolling with the song it can become hilarious and competitive as they keep trying to outdo one another for the best and more daring verses... lol All in all, if you get the opportunity to hear the Wenches and Rogues singing and playing along it's a lot of fun... for all... Patrons as well as Participants... Hope you have fun at Faire... |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Barry Finn Date: 05 Nov 03 - 04:19 PM Hi Theresa, The pleasure was mine, thank you. Hearing/singing/meeting you was quite the thrill for me. Micky Finn was born & raised in Boston. He's my father though I don't think he was old enough be the same Micky talked about here. He did tell me that in order to get him to behave properly, his parents would threaten him by telling him they were gonna put him on one of those windjammers that come into the harbor. He kept up with his rowdy behavior & used to go down to the docks hoping that he'd get shipped out. Micky Finn's was also a large ('Army & Navy'type) chain of stores in this area, don't know if they were big any where else. Now that I've carried this thread creep to far, sorry, I was just taken the Micky out of me. Barry |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:58 PM And the other Stan Hugill book to get hold of is "Sailortown", a sort of gazetteer of all the sailortowns round the world in their heyday. Street maps of places like New Orleans and Liverpool back in the 1880s and so forth. It give the context for the songs in the other books. As he points out, while people on shore wrote sea-songs about the sea, sailors normally made their shanties about having a good time (or a bad time) in the bars and the bawdy houses ashore. Though there were some shore poets who got it right - in his preface to "Sailortown", Stan Hugill cites C.Fox Smith, as someone who "gives us in two lines the outlook of the windbag man": "An Christ", says Dan, "for a night in port, an' a Dago fiddler's tunr, An' just one whiff of the drinks again, in a Callao saloon." |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: treaties1 Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:14 PM Thanks for the information everyone and thread creep, Hi Barry from Theresa and thanks again for the Yangtse river song |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Schantieman Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:06 PM ..and of course, anyone called Finn in the Navy is known as Micky! Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas is packed full of shanties, variations, explanations and background, as well as some of Stan's excellent drawings. Indispensible for anyone wanting to learn about them. Less well known is his Sea Shanties, a smaller volume with a lot more explanation and thirty or so songs, some of which don't appear in the 'bible'. It also contains a number of photos of the barque Pamir in which Stan served. Steve |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Amos Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:39 AM Shanghai, after the Chinese port. Mickey Finn was the tavernkeeper. Possibly apocryphal. A |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: reggie miles Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:37 AM Skipper, was Mickey Finn the spiked drink? Is that where the expression comes from to slip someone a Mickey? |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Skipper Jack Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:12 AM Then you had the landlord of a quayside pub, in the pay of the ship owner or captain, who used to "spike" the drinks of the unwary customer, who was then dragged away and on board by some of the ship's crew.. One such was Mickey Finn! It is well illustrated in the song, "Larry Marr (The Five Gallon Jar)" |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: open mike Date: 02 Nov 03 - 11:50 PM many of the sailors were kidnapped by being knocked out, and they woke up out at sea and had to be made or forced to work... ...lure men near the docks... this practice of enticing men to become sailors, or even kidnapping them (often if they were too drunk to know or care is waht i have heard) is called being Shang Hied |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: GUEST,juliakarena@yahoo.com Date: 02 Nov 03 - 10:47 PM I read, in an American folksong book, that the sailors made up and sang this song as a way of coping with the unending abuse from the captains that was endured because many of the sailors were kidnapped by being knocked out, and they woke up out at sea and had to be made or forced to work. This happened because they couldn't get enough people when the reputation of the bosses got around as being so mean. They used pretty girls to lure men near the docks, as some of the lyrics allude to. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Garry Date: 16 Jan 99 - 09:34 PM Check out a book called "Shanties From The Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill Publisher Routledge and Kegan Paul. It explains it all. Lesly N is pretty close |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Lesley N. Date: 16 Jan 99 - 01:19 AM A bit more to what Barry wrote: "Blow" refers to knocking a man down with fist, belaying pin or capstan bar. Chief Mates in Western Ocean ships were known as "blowers", second mates as "strikers" and third mates as "greasers". A tough life to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: gargoyle Date: 16 Jan 99 - 12:24 AM Barry thanks for the eruditon > I always took the meaning to be talk - hot air - blowhard - full of wind - a braggart - talltale - yarnspinner - liar and believed it to come from long hours of storytelling spent in the time off duty. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Jan 99 - 08:33 PM Ask Bill Clinton. I think that's what has happened to him. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Barry Finn Date: 15 Jan 99 - 06:33 PM Knock down someone with your fists. For sailors in the golden age of sail that was one way to make your way up the ladder, seamanship would've been anotherway. The tougher the sailor, on a packet, the better able to keep other towing the line. That's really "toe on the line", make a Jack stand in bare feet with his toes alined with a deck plank & keep him there for how ever long with his toes always on that line. Barry |
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Subject: What does blow the man down mean? From: Date: 15 Jan 99 - 05:11 PM My almost 2 year old daughter keeps asking me what "blow the man down" means. Can you help? |
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