for Pholk Philosophy buffs

Subject: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 20 Jan 99 - 06:51 PM

I'm looking for a source for the phollowing phour-line piece of philosophy:

He who borrows Medusa's Eye Resigns to th'old Empiric Lie: The Knower Petrifies the Known, The Subtle Dancer turns to Stone.

Who esle would know but Mudcatters? (and, no, it's not Leonard Cohen).

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 99 - 08:19 PM

It seems there is a poem by Shelly about the Medusa (Leonardo's statue), and in this page, there is a long discussion about it, in which the possible 'eye' metaphor is mentioned..the wording of your quote is a bit similar to the language...perhaps there is a link...*shrug*

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Pete M
Date: 20 Jan 99 - 08:37 PM

Yes Bill, my initial reaction was Shelley too, but the phrase doesn't seem to come up in any of the searches (electronic and paper) that I've done. Meanwhile to keep up interest, this link will take you to a picture of the medusa's eye produced by the Julia set.

Pete M

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: GUEST,Greenstreet
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

'who borrows medusa's eye,
falls prey to the empirical lie.
the knower petrifies the known,
the subtle dancer turns to stone."



I think Theoder Roszak quoted ot some where ? Cult of Cnformation ?
Might it be it be Kant ?

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

"The knower petrifies the known;

This Ding an sich must turn to stone!"


That is from Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason".

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:14 PM

Found it attributed thus at

    http://partyflock.nl/flocktopic/26741.html

He who borrows Medusa's eye
Resigns to the empirical lie
The knower petrifies the known
The subtle dancer turns to stone

William Blake

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:40 PM

PARDON ME:

The attribution of that line to Kant is WRONG. It was in an article outlining "Pure Reason". My apologies.

O'Neill

"I met a Ding an sich one night

It gave me quite a nasty fright.

I cannot tell you how it looks,

For, as you know from all the books,

Things in themselves are not in space.

I thought, "I am the first of all my race

To have an intellectual intuition.

I'll synthesize my apprehension

And then describe it blow by blow."

But then the Ding began to go.

I said, "The knower petrifies the known;

This Ding an sich must turn to stone!"

Immediately I made acquaintance

With the thing—as an appearance."

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:45 PM

"Who borrows the Medusa's eye
Resigns to the empirical lie!
The 'knower' petrifies the 'known;
The subtle dancer turns to stone!"


This sounds like a poetic essay on Schrodinger's Cat and the Uncertainty Principle.

It is attributed to Blake in the only quote of it I found on the 'Net but the source work is not named, helas.


A

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 08:28 AM

I searched for "petrifies the known" with Google Book Search, and it told me that those words appear on page 290 (which must be the last page of the appendix) of "The Making of a Counter Culture" by Theodore Roszak. That page is not available for viewing online, however.

I suppose Roszak was quoting someone else, but I guess someone will have to examine the book to find out who.

If it was really by as famous a writer as Blake or Shelley, I would expect Google to turn it up in its original context, since surely the works of Blake and Shelley and their ilk have all been digitized by now, don't you think?

Maybe not. See Shelley and Blake at Project Gutenberg.

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 09:55 PM

There was nothing available from Blake. I think the attribution from that blog is wrong. But then I've screwed up before.

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 10:19 PM

Dank, such an elegant little quatrain and NOBODY knows where it's from!! Ain't that a goat-gitter, though?


A

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: GUEST,charlie jackson
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:45 AM

From the preface to
The Making of a Counter Culture: Reflections on the Technocratic Society and Its Youthful Opposition is a work of non-fiction by Theodore Roszak

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 AM

Looks like Theodore Roszak (1933-2011) revisited the lines. There is a Fakebook entry referring to "Return to the Wastelands" by him.

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 05:20 AM

Usually attributed to Allen Ginsberg in 1961.

The Medusa metaphor refers to Perseus, of course, not to Leonardo.

Judging by googling, especially photographers feel addressed and challenged to justify their occupation. The idea, however, refers to "analytic" knowledge altogether, as exmplified in mathematical sciences. Anti-science ideology accuses them of cruel tyranny over mathematically challenged dancers – an idea dating back to the seventeenth century and still in vogue. Many claim a popular misconception about quantum mechanics for "Queen's evidence", hence the above posting by Amos.

Summary: great poetry; beware of propaganda.

Subject: RE: for Pholk Philosophy buffs
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 10:26 AM

The famous writer is indeed Allen Ginsberg. The lines appeared in his collection "Planet News" (1967).

They may have appeared earlier in Ginsberg's "Empty Mirror" (1961), but without a copy handy I can't guarantee it.

The lines are strongly influenced by both Blake and Yeats.